Entertainer Archive
Thread: Entertainer: 10 answers.
Ok, if the Combat entertainer thing would happen to *somehow* work out, then the complaining wont be afk anymore. itll be no defenses, and always being the number one target.
About macros, great post with the excuses. not everybody abuses the macro system. So in no reason should macros be taken out just because someons pissed that entertainers can go afk, thats just idiotic/selfish thinking right there.
Vaelorn wrote:
Iconcur with several other people here.
Letting people use macros to gain experience or loot while they're AFK is GAME-BREAKING. It's not "the nature of the beast". It's "the currentplague of this game".
As far as I'm concerned, these AFK macro-zombies don't have as many rights as the people who are actually at the keyboard. Why? Because the AFK macro-zombies ARE NOT ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. The player is nowhere near the computer, it's just thegame interface running the character in a constant loop. There is no player involved at all. What do AFK macros accomplish? The users of AFK macros get FREE EXPERIENCE AND LOOT, because they're not earning it if they're not even there playing! Meanwhile, the people who actually *are* playing the game have to suffer from lower framerates and higher ping times because of all the macro bots draining resources.
Give us the definition of "exploit" in this game, and AFK macros will fit pretty well.
Before the flames come in telling me why AFK macroexploitation should continue to be allowed to plague this game, I'll go ahead and offer rebuttals to some of the most common excuses:
Excuse #1: "They're playing the game the way they want to. You have no right to tell them how to play this game!"
Rebuttal #1: "THEY ARE NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL. That's the crux of the entire problem! There is no player involved, just an empty player-character sucking down *my* framerate and *my* ping times and getting *them* all the benefit of exploiting the macro. Everyone who is actually at the keyboard has to suffer the consequences of everyone who is using an AFK macro to cheat for free loot and experience."
Excuse #2: "Vendors can still make money for merchants while the merchant is AFK or not even online! What's the difference if Joe Schmoe wants to use an AFK macro to gather loot from NPCs, or gain experience from newbie city monster spawns, or sample for resources?"
Rebuttal #2: "Vendors cost money to run. Vendors require skills to use them. Vendors require items to sell, items that have already been worked on by a player, or produced in a player's factory which also costs money to run. Even using the bazaar costs some small amount of money, and has limited space for wares. A personal harvester is not at all expensive, but it does have cost; half the people using an AFK macro to sample resources are probably just doing it for the experience anyway."
Excuse #3: "AFK macros do not hurt this game, because EVERYONE can use them! You shouldn't get upset that someone is using an AFK macro, because you can use the exact same macro to do the exact same thing. The playing field is even, so you have no right to complain."
Rebuttal #3: "You almost had it right. AFK macros DO hurt this game, because EVERYONE can use them. You will know this game has died when you log on and find 23 people in a city, and every single one of them is AFK and using a macro to gain experience or loot. AFK entertainers completely ruin the game for the players who actually want to PLAY an entertainer. AFK people slumming the newbie monsters around newbie cities for weapon or creature experience completely ruin the game for the real newbies who cannot go anywhere else to hunt. AFK spammers sitting in front of the Coronet starport shouting out locations to a shop ruin the game for everyone who hears them shouting dozens of times in a row."
Excuse #4: "Fine. If you hate AFK macros so much, just put the character on ignore. Then you don't have to listen to them anymore."
Rebuttal #4: "No, it's not fine. The command to ignore other player characters does absolutely nothing for the 13 AFK macro-zombies bumbling around in the middle of the cantina floor. The ignore command only prevents text from the character, it does not completely hide the character or remove them from the game."
Excuse #5: "If you hate the game so much, why don't you quit playing it, and stop crying about it here on the boards?!"
Rebuttal #5: "I don't hate the game. I hate the AFK macro-zombies in the game. The playerbase should not be forced to deal with them on a nightly basis, so I fully expect them to be removed orhindered to preserve the integrity and spirit of this game."
Telling the players that AFK macroexploitation isan unwanted but permanent activity, and that you have absolutely no plans to remove or hinder them,is simply inexcuseable.
If you *really* don't want people using AFK macros to cheat at your game, then you certainly will implement a system to prevent or hinder the use of AFK macros; the computer savvy elites who work around your system to continue using AFK macros to cheat will then be open to bans from this game.
excelent post! TH, Haden you need to read this because if you think your making this game more "fair" for all players then your just dead wrong. Combatants and non-combatants alike all hate this. Yes there are some that like it but the large majority of players do not. If you don't want to destroy your game, then you need to address this issue, right away and definiativly. Otherwise as the newbie signs on to the game to find its not really an mmo since there is no MM only a bunch of afk bots they quit and the real playerbase...
I look forward to those "In Concept" threads that have to do with entertainers. I'm quite certain you'll get a ton of feedback and suggestions.
I also want to applaud you for the upcoming changes in the Jedi system. While I realize this change was probably not specifically designed to enhance the lives of entertainers, it is an excellent first step in doing so.
As I hope you know at this point, the AFK phenomenon has hit our professions hard. TH's post seems to indicate that you at least acknowledge the problem, though you brush it off with an excuse that is implausible at best, given that EQ (another game run by your company) does successfully squash AFK play. Hadan's post, on the other hand, seems to run contrary with this statement: "Although we do realize that the Holocron-grinding has led to quite a few AFK Entertainers (something we're hoping to remedy with the revision to the Jedi system), Ialso believe that the cantinas have become the social hubs that we had hoped for."
Looking beyond the implausible excuse part, because it's obvious that unattended play isn't going to leave the game at this point, I wanted to address the other points.
Haden, if you believe what you typed, then you are probably out of touch. Go to a live server and visit any popular cantina and see what you find. Compare, if you can, the current scene with what was the norm after the game shipped. Query real entertainers about their life. I am quite serious when I say that what once was a welcoming scene for the socializers you say you made the profession for has now turned into a hostile environment that they don't want any part of. Take a good look at the forums here and on the other entertainment forums and you'll see exactly how much strife this one issue has caused between the socializers and the achievers you have induced to play our professions. While cantinas were once the social hubs of the universe, they have now become the anti-social lairs of the AFKer. We really need you to understand the severity of the problem.
Back to TH's post...may I ask what you meant by the following statement... "Currently I’m focused on the correspondent issue. The challenge is that the correspondent issues are pretty big and will take a while to develop and implement." I'm not certain what issues you are talking about here...are you referring to the Top 5 lists?
You also state, "In essence, we can’t prevent AFK people from playing, but one thing we are doing is looking at different ways we can encourage at-the-keyboard play." This is encouraging, but I'd like to ask you the following questions as follow-ups.
1) You acknowledge the issue we're dealing with as far as the AFK thing, which is a huge relief, but can we hope that this issue, the biggest game breaking and serious issue in the hearts of the entertainment community, might get some attention in the near term?
2) We were all hoping that buffing would be one thing that at-keyboard folks would have over AFKers, but even though you made them targetted, you still allow AFKers, through the use of clever macros, to be every but as effective as live entertainers in terms of buffing. Will you take steps in the future when you add these at-keyboard enhancing capabilities to actually make them ONLY available for those not AFK?
Thanks again for your time and your posts, gentlemen. I know we're pushing back hard, but you need to understand we've been ignored for quite a long time and some resentment has built up. Time and improved communication can heal all that, so please continue to talk to us.
Hi,
Macroing is something that hapenes in all Games. As a publisher/provider of such Games you have no chance to prevent it, you have to face this and everybody wo says that you can prevent people from using macros is a liar or has no clue what hes talking about.
The aproach of ATITD and SWG is to channelise the use of macros by providing them with the client (SWG) or by allowing them, but not unattended (ATITD). If you now remove the macros you gain nothing but angry customers. You can not prevent people from legally using macros, cause Computer-Peripherals provide such functionality as standard feature, or do you seriously talk about forbidding PC-Dash, Macro-capable Keyboards and stuff like that?
The smallest Problem for me in the game are afk-entertainers. Entertainers are needed and back in those good old times when there was no hologrinding I was lucky to see even an afk-entertainer on lok or other planets.
If you only worry about macros, then you did not understand what an entertainer is. If you cant compete with afk-peoples, you have the wrong class
Take those macroing people as people with another style of gameplay, they play their game, you play yours. And I deerly hope that you only play to whine about others.
Read ya
hehe
nice error....
of course I hope that you not only play to whine about others....
*sigh*
Read ya.
Ikkann wrote:
Also if they did do somthing to remove macros from game, theres always other programs out there, such as auto-it which many people can do. So point being said theres always gonna be afk players, macros or not.
Those apps are illegal to use in this game. That's the key difference. Make something illegal, allow players to report someone doing it, have your CSRs ban them. They won't catch everyone, but even the knowledge that someone MIGHT get banned for doing it is enough to stop 99% of the population from trying it. That's why law enforcement works.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
I'd like to quickly elaborate on a few answers:
Ialso believe that the cantinas have become the social hubs that we had hoped for.
Sorry for this one but since the holo grinding I've never been to a cantina they are all crowded with afkers.
I was an entertainer at start and I had much fun socializing, playing with emotes...
The best thing we got is the creatures habitat with I used during my shows to make "magical" trick to ty the best tippers and RPers.
The mind enhances brought power gamers to cantina not RPers, but it was still a good move to bring this kind of people and let them socialize 
I can understand AFKers some of them set their caracter in remote cantinas when they are out so they are helping the needy.
My 2 creds.
Suggestion.. ?
Lower 2 hour full buff to 5 min or less 
Thunderheart wrote:
When the entertainer class was created, what was the vision for role that entertainers would play in the grand scheme of things? Do you see entertainers now as filling that role?
In the grand scheme of things, Entertainers are a very “Star Warsy” profession. From the Bith Musicians in the Mos Eisley Cantina to Jabba’s slave dancers, entertainers play an important role in the setting. The trick was putting them into an MMO. The entertainers, dancers and musicians represent the first time that these activities are available in an online game. Other games have Bards and similar activities, but these are pure entertainer roles. Its never been done and its not easy to develop. In the real world, people watch entertainers and make personal opinions - - how do you measure that in a digital world? It’s a really tough thing to measure with computers.
If you're not going to bother to actually answer the question, please just say so in ten words or less. As in, "I don't have an answer for that." We can amuse ourselves by making up reasons for a short non-answer just as easily as a verbose one. My guess is: Whoever came up with the idea for all the Entertainer professions started taking thier medications the week afterwards, and the idea never really got fully fleshed out. So the developers never really had a clear vision for their role, but it sounded like something their girlfriends would like, so it kept getting left in. Substantiated by:
Do any members of the development teams regularly play an entertainer?
Yes. Myself included. Many of their wives play entertainers as well.
Great. It's The Girlfriend Class™. So...the only reason for any of the Entertainer professions to exist is to give malegamers' female significant others (those who actually have them) something to do so that said gamers will get a little peace? And, er...how many of those significant others actually stick with Entertaining in some guise and don't go, "Wow, this is boring" after a month or so, thereafter picking up a rifle, sword, etc.?
As for ThunderHeart's justification for the ease at which performing is AFK macro'd.../rolleyes. Okay, so since people are going to find a way do it anyway, should law enforcement officers just ask people if they'reDriving While Intoxicated, and if they say 'no' take them at their word?
Easy way to curb a large portion of AFK performing: make the performer initially target a patron to heal them. You know...like a medic has to in order to heal a patient? Bah, I'm talking to myself here, this is never going to be read by the person to whom I'm responding. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. Hmm...probably why I'm still a musician after all this time.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
I'd like to quickly elaborate on a few answers:
1. When the entertainer class was created, what was the vision for role that entertainers would play in the grand scheme of things? Do you see entertainers now as filling that role?
Entertainer was, at its heart, meant to appeal to the socializers in the game. Our goal was to provide a profession that allowed them to enjoy their preferredgameplay style while still providing a valuable role to the other players. Basically, we wanted to make them feel like they were contributing to the online community even while just hanging out and chatting. To that end, we made them part of the healing cycle. I do think we achieved our goal here; most of the EntertainersI know were drawn to the profession because of its verysocial nature and they enjoymeeting all the other players who must come to them forBF healing.
We also hoped that, by driving other players to the Entertainers in cantinas, cantinas would become social hubs where players enjoy some downtime, swapping stories and meeting one another. Although we do realize that the Holocron-grinding has led to quite a few AFK Entertainers (something we're hoping to remedy with the revision to the Jedi system), Ialso believe that the cantinas have become the social hubs that we had hoped for.
As Panthu said...by forcing players to come to us, while locking us in a boring grey room with nothing to do but chat, the relationship is already slightly adversarial. A medic can go along with a combat party and contribute to the online community, as well as staff a medical center...but none of them staff those medical centers, do they? Why? Because they're not chained to them. They can take a droid out and be useful anywhere. Which leads to how cantinas are not the social hubs of the game. Coronet Starport is. After that, bank complexes are. Even before there were so many performers choking the Coronet Cantina that they're in the hallways, the Theed Cantina closest to its Starport a close second and finding a performer in any other cantina about as likely as recognizing Cher in the grocery store...anyway, before that, cantinas were only on that list. But not at the top. Once we left open beta and maybe the first 2 weeks after launch behind, I don't think cantinashave been the social hubs of the game. And even then, it wasn't generically cantinas. It was the Coronet and Theed Cantinas.
The Mind Enhancement skills make me feel like I'm contributing to the online community in an active way that, while it's possible to AFK macro it, is much easier to do so actively. For me, that is probably the single most significant thing that's been done to fulfill the stated goal of an entertainer. It's the reason I mastered Musician rather than just being a Master Entertainer/Composer. (Gods, I hate the narlagon. And not because I have to keep it targetted, which is annoying...it sounds awful! Virtuoso is okay, but I can live without it. And everything in the Techniques line except for Mind Enhancement is fluff. There'll always be someone else to make instruments, and once I have one, I never need another since they don't wear out, don't do anything for the music quality or healing, etc.)
All in all, I think a couple false assumptions were made on the part of the development team about Entertaining. Guys, we can chat on AIM or in any number of places. We're playing a Massively Multi-Player Online game to get something more than that. You made3/4 of Entertaining have to do with healing. Please, expand on that. I think Medics are probably one of the best, most stable professions in the game. I can only hope that someday Entertainer will be as fleshed out and reasonable a class.
Fellow performers...our problems with AFK macroing through the professionwill not be over once the holocron craze is done. There will still be AFK macroing hordes grinding their way to mastery...for the mind enhancement. So they can be buffbots. Kinda gotta take the bad with the good, but please don't be stunned when the Coronet and Theed Cantinas don't empty out and leave just the ones who care about the profession. Not to mention...how long is it going to take until the new quest-based FSCS system is in place? I'll still be buffing folks from the Hotels for a while yet, I think.
The only ones who'll be left in peace once the holocrons are just shiny cubes again will be the Image Designers. No one is held hostage to use their services, so only someone who actually wants to do it will. At least the quest-based system will alleviate one profession's glut of non-dedicated participants.
Hi,
you think 90% of the people dont drive too fast? Or do you think 90% of the people does not kill other people?
You see, if someone drives to fast and another one tells the police about it, they can do nothing, because they have no proof. If you kill someone, you can try to proof by finding the corpse :-)
This is similar, if you see someone who seems to be afk, you can report him, but how will you proof that he was afk that time the CSR checks the report?
It is impossible, face it.
Thats why they found another way to deal with that problem, and thats a good way, not a perfect way, but a good way.
I totally agree that afk-leveling is not good for the game, but you have to deal with what is possible and whats not. I would prefer to not waste Time in trials to prevent people from playing afk and to put those efforts into bugfixing and after that into new features.
Read ya.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
I'd like to quickly elaborate on a few answers:
1. When the entertainer class was created, what was the vision for role that entertainers would play in the grand scheme of things? Do you see entertainers now as filling that role?
Along with everything that TH cited, the Entertainer was, at its heart, meant to appeal to the socializers in the game. Our goal was to provide a profession that allowed them to enjoy their preferredgameplay style while still providing a valuable role to the other players. Basically, we wanted to make them feel like they were contributing to the online community even while just hanging out and chatting. To that end, we made them part of the healing cycle. I do think we achieved our goal here; most of the EntertainersI know were drawn to the profession because of its verysocial nature and they enjoymeeting all the other players who must come to them forBF healing.
We also hoped that, by driving other players to the Entertainers in cantinas, cantinas would become social hubs where players enjoy some downtime, swapping stories and meeting one another. Although we do realize that the Holocron-grinding has led to quite a few AFK Entertainers (something we're hoping to remedy with the revision to the Jedi system), Ialso believe that the cantinas have become the social hubs that we had hoped for.
I think having a speed limit makes people think twice about driving at reckless speeds.
"This is similar, if you see someone who seems to be afk, you can report him, but how will you proof that he was afk that time the CSR checks the report?"
Because people go AFK for 8+ hours at a time. All a CSR has to do is send a tell a couple of times, and if they get no response, you have your proof.
Even so, you're still missing the point. Tell people that something is illegal and that they will be punished if they do it, and that stops most of the people from even trying. Society itself proves this true every day, and if you cannot see that, then I cannot help you.
This conversation is relatively pointless anyway, they're not going to remove unattended gameplay at this point. My only remaining question to you would be...are you an entertainer?