Entertainer Archive
Thread: Pub.23 Can't buff myself anymore...
Thunderheart;
Thanks for dropping by. A little interaction with the red-names is always welcome and shows that you guys are actively interested in what's going on. I complain about about the ivory tower at times, but I'mhappy to be proved wrong.
I'm not that concerned with self-buffing, personally. I don't dance and the general buff doesn't matter to me so much that I'd make a fuss about it.
What I'm concerned about and what I believe the general player base is going to start being concerned about is this business of the passive buff overwriting the active buff. What good does it do me to join a really rockin' band, rehearse a great show and perform it live with a bunch of masters if everyone is afraid to listen because they'll lose the artisan buffs they paid good money for? How many times am I going to have angry customers complaining that I didn't warn them about it or they just forgot? What purpose does the passive buff serve, anyway?
I always get inspired when I watch myself dance in RL....But thats just me 
regards
SlickRiptide wrote:
What I'm concerned about and what I believe the general player base is going to start being concerned about is this business of the passive buff overwriting the active buff. What good does it do me to join a really rockin' band, rehearse a great show and perform it live with a bunch of masters if everyone is afraid to listen because they'll lose the artisan buffs they paid good money for? How many times am I going to have angry customers complaining that I didn't warn them about it or they just forgot? What purpose does the passive buff serve, anyway?
/agree 1,000,000,000%
Not sure I added enough zeros.
I couldn't care less about self-buffing really. It is at the very bottom of my priority list.
At the TOP is this buff-overwriting crap with the passive buff. To put it plainly, IT MUST GO. I don't care how you do it. There are lots of options. Pick one. Here is a partial selection:
1. Convert the "passive" buff to an active one (add it to the menu and get rid of it as a passive option).
or
2. Give the listener an "accept buff" option for the passive one only (the others do not need it), allowing him to listen EITHER WAY, but accept or not accept the buff-overwrite. If you want to be really smart about it, you only need this accept buff option when the person has another inspiration going. If he is not already inspired it can still be automatic.
or
3. Let the buffs stack. One active and one passive at a time.
or
4. Make a new command, /hear and /observe or something, that lets you listen to or watch a peformance, gives clappping animations, and so on, without doing any buffing at all. This way people could be sure their current active buff is safe, and they could still listen and enjoy the performance.
Well, there is a selection of options for you, and I am sure people could come up with others. You guys in the pilots' chairs need to pick one and implement it immediately. I mean RIGHT NOW.
It is flat-out not acceptable that someone can't listen to my music for 3 hours after I inspire him, for fear of losing his buff. FIX IT. NOW.
C
If we have a red name's attention, may as well request to have the buffing interaction simplified and more intuitive. Again, it was a common complaint that our old buffs were too complex and unpredictable. We need more feedback and details during the process, and the person getting the buff needs to be guided better through the process.
I don't want to give someone a 5 minute instructional session on getting the buff, I would rather be entertaining them as they get the buff.
Thunderheart wrote:
Bionic wrote:
TH said yesterday that he was going to try to find out the details for us and post when he got them. I PM'ed him today reminding him, and he read it, so we'll see what happens.
Greetings,
Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be able to buff themselves with Inspiration Buffs.
Here's why:
On the game side of things, basic Inspiration Buffs come early. The concern is that folks can take just a few basic skills to buff themselves and the Inspiration Buffs provided by dedicated Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be in as much demand as they should be because other players will be able to do it themselves.
This was the case since the CU hit Live servers. You guys didn't think much of it for all this time. It wasn't a massive problem before, and I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. 15 skill points is a significant dedication just to get an occasional buff.
While I understand that it certainly isn't as convenient as it would be tobuff yourselves, other players will want that same convenience for themselves. They will buy a small amount of skills for the convenience and the demand for your Inspiration Buffs will drop.
I strongly disagree. See previous response.
Simply for thesake of discussion: conceptually, the idea of the buff is that your character is "inspired" by watching a fantastic entertainer perform for you. Inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing or playing music is certainly possible, but it isn't typical.
If inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing, or playing music wasn't typical, we wouldn't have 100's of 1,000's of musicians in this world, nor dancers, nor entertainers. If someone didn't get up on stage and become inspired by performing, nobody would do it. I'm sorry, TH - I don't know if this is your response, or the Devs', but whoever it is has a complete and total lack of knowledge of the performing arts.
If you (TH or the Devs, whoever made this comment) think self-inspiration isn't typical for entertainers, then you need to talk to someone who has any experience in the performing arts.
I refuse to accept this excuse.
Tell me whatever you like about how game mechanics won't allow it, or whatever - but I'm actuallypretty upset that you're trying to tell me that entertainers don't inspire themselves. This is the height of ridiculousness. It's a horrible rationality for not letting us self-buff. It is contrary to the very basis of entertainment at it's soul - the drive within to entertain, create, and express yourself artistically. If there wasn't any self-inspiration, the arts would never have existed.
Don't mean to keep rambling about this, I'm just appalled by this statement, I really am.
I worked in professional theater, I've worked in theaters that housed various acts doing various things like dance, concerts, all types of performances. You will never convince me those people weren't self-inspired, not even the 4-year olds in tu-tu's trying their first ballet. Each of them was self-inspired, regardless of their commercial success, and self-inspiration lies at the heart of entertainment.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 09-01-2005 01:08 PM
Warryyr wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Bionic wrote:
TH said yesterday that he was going to try to find out the details for us and post when he got them. I PM'ed him today reminding him, and he read it, so we'll see what happens.
Greetings,
Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be able to buff themselves with Inspiration Buffs.
Here's why:
On the game side of things, basic Inspiration Buffs come early. The concern is that folks can take just a few basic skills to buff themselves and the Inspiration Buffs provided by dedicated Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be in as much demand as they should be because other players will be able to do it themselves.
This was the case since the CU hit Live servers. You guys didn't think much of it for all this time. It wasn't a massive problem before, and I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. 15 skill points is a significant dedication just to get an occasional buff.
While I understand that it certainly isn't as convenient as it would be tobuff yourselves, other players will want that same convenience for themselves. They will buy a small amount of skills for the convenience and the demand for your Inspiration Buffs will drop.
I strongly disagree. See previous response.
Simply for thesake of discussion: conceptually, the idea of the buff is that your character is "inspired" by watching a fantastic entertainer perform for you. Inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing or playing music is certainly possible, but it isn't typical.
If inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing, or playing music wasn't typical, we wouldn't have 100's of 1,000's of musicians in this world, nor dancers, nor entertainers. If someone didn't get up on stage and become inspired by performing, nobody would do it. I'm sorry, TH - I don't know if this is your response, or the Devs', but whoever it is has a complete and total lack of knowledge of the performing arts.
If you (TH or the Devs, whoever made this comment) think self-inspiration isn't typical for entertainers, then you need to talk to someone who has any experience in the performing arts.
I refuse to accept this excuse.
Tell me whatever you like about how game mechanics won't allow it, or whatever - but I'm actuallypretty upset that you're trying to tell me that entertainers don't inspire themselves. This is the height of ridiculousness. It's a horrible rationality for not letting us self-buff. It is contrary to the very basis of entertainment at it's soul - the drive within to entertain, create, and express yourself artistically. If there wasn't any self-inspiration, the arts would never have existed.
Don't mean to keep rambling about this, I'm just appalled by this statement, I really am.
I worked in professional theater, I've worked in theaters that housed various acts doing various things like dance, concerts, all types of performances. You will never convince me those people weren't self-inspired, not even the 4-year olds in tu-tu's trying their first ballet. Each of them was self-inspired, regardless of their commercial success, and self-inspiration lies at the heart of entertainment.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 09-01-2005 01:08 PM
You make valid Real World points. But sometimes you have to think outside the box, and realize ultimately this is a game. And sometimes game mechanics can be effected positively or negatively thus certain ramifications need to be addressed or instilled.
Again this is a "Role Playing Game". Since you put in Real World Logic, you can basically "role play" your inspiring self, and not have something effecting you in the long run. Which would be no-one looking for an entertainer if they can do so themselves at a young state.
If they are looking for an entertainer just to get the silly draw, I don't need them. Chances are, they really don't want to be there in the first place, and they just resent me for it.
The problem of this class has nothing to do with having something players desire from us. Its that I have no function to enrich my own game, outside of their interests.
Because to tell you the truth, they are too busy worrying about satisfying their own fun, to satisfy mine. And since I have no game ouside of what I do for others, and they know it, they know they can abuse me, neglect me, and ignore me, and I have no means to escape them.
Denying abusive players only denies me the only content the developers have decided to give me. Because I have no game ability as a dancer (with the exception of 1000 credit terminal missions) to retreat to, when the public doesn't want me, or treats me badly.
That is the problem of a game that totally relies on others to be fun. Its that I have no business being a dancer if nobody wants to use me. That is a degrading, and abusive relationship in the making.
Self-enhancement is more than just a nice thing to have. It is an essential thing to have. Because if I have no intrinsic self-worth in the game, it only reaffirms that I have no intrinsic self-worth as a player, and as a human being, to other players in the game.
Self-enhancement is just one of the things we need to give us the sort of gameplay we deserve, as subscribers. I don't want to be a character whos only function is to be used. I want to be a character who has a certain degree of autonomy, and dignity.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 09-01-2005 01:38 PM
Spynet-Informant wrote:
DrElJefeMD wrote:
What is the point of skill points? If i invest in skill points I should get the benefit of those skill points. Why can doc's heal themselves? Take this idea to its logical conclusion and what's the point?
Well... to be fair, I'm a Pistoleer, and I can't shoot myself.
...priceless
I thinkgiving a master musician/dancer have the ability to buff themselves is a fair compromise. I don't know anything about computer code, maybe if that is too difficult, add a 'unique' buff for them at master.
Atolycus wrote:
Weaponsmith can build weapons for themselves.
If they have a combat profession or suffient CL to use it
Armorsmiths can build armor for themselves.
If they have at least novice in a combat profession to be certed for it
Smugglers can slice their own equipment.
Shipwrights can build their own ships.
If they are certed for the equipment/chassis
Droidsmiths can build their own droids.
Many modules require specific professions to use them
Architects can build house for themselves.
Doctors can buff themselves.
Seems to me that most proffessions are relatively self sufficient.
Sure, these crafting profs do need a combat player to bring them the nice loot items, but they need to have something to spend their profits on.
Ents, Dancers and Musicians have a hard enough time making money as is, why should they have to rely on someone else to buff them too?
-----
They can't all use their own products unless they have other professions to allow it.
It still doesn't make much sense for entertainers to not be able to self inspire, at least with the basic buff.
Let me guess, next your going to take away the ability to healself also. Actually, that wouldnt be such a bad idea for the Doc and CM profession. :-)
Thunderheart wrote:
Bionic wrote:
TH said yesterday that he was going to try to find out the details for us and post when he got them. I PM'ed him today reminding him, and he read it, so we'll see what happens.
Greetings,
Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be able to buff themselves with Inspiration Buffs.
Here's why:
On the game side of things, basic Inspiration Buffs come early. The concern is that folks can take just a few basic skills to buff themselves and the Inspiration Buffs provided by dedicated Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be in as much demand as they should be because other players will be able to do it themselves.
While I understand that it certainly isn't as convenient as it would be tobuff yourselves, other players will want that same convenience for themselves. They will buy a small amount of skills for the convenience and the demand for your Inspiration Buffs will drop.
Simply for thesake of discussion: conceptually, the idea of the buff is that your character is "inspired" by watching a fantastic entertainer perform for you. Inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing or playing music is certainly possible, but it isn't typical.
ArkonPhoenix wrote:
Let me guess, next your going to take away the ability to healself also. Actually, that wouldnt be such a bad idea for the Doc and CM profession. :-)
Thunderheart wrote:
Bionic wrote:
TH said yesterday that he was going to try to find out the details for us and post when he got them. I PM'ed him today reminding him, and he read it, so we'll see what happens.
Greetings,
Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be able to buff themselves with Inspiration Buffs.
Here's why:
On the game side of things, basic Inspiration Buffs come early. The concern is that folks can take just a few basic skills to buff themselves and the Inspiration Buffs provided by dedicated Entertainers, Dancers and Musicians will not be in as much demand as they should be because other players will be able to do it themselves.
While I understand that it certainly isn't as convenient as it would be tobuff yourselves, other players will want that same convenience for themselves. They will buy a small amount of skills for the convenience and the demand for your Inspiration Buffs will drop.
Simply for thesake of discussion: conceptually, the idea of the buff is that your character is "inspired" by watching a fantastic entertainer perform for you. Inspiring yourself by entertaining, dancing or playing music is certainly possible, but it isn't typical.
Well, going on TH's "what's typical" arguement, Doctors and CMs and such shouldn't be able to heal themselves, after all...a doc can't perscribe themselves medication, they have to go to another doctor...
I do ballroom dancing as a hobby IRL, and in addition to social dancing, I compete in ballroom competitions and perform in showcases. I can tell you that you certainly get a charge from performing in front of an audience and even taking the time to practice on your own gives you a good feeling when you feel your skills improving or nail a routine just the way you want. There have been times when I've had a bad day and feel tired, but I go to a dance lesson at night and within 10 minutes or so I've forgotten about everything else that happened earlier. I think any true artist draws inspiration, at least in part, from their own skills, and it's what drives them to create, perform, and grow.
Now as far as the concern about other players just taking parts of Entertainer to get the benefits, the insp. buff has been available with Novice Entertainer since the CU which was about 4 months ago. I know of some combat players who have Novice Ent so they can buff themselves, but many still need to seek out an entertainer if they want the buff. I haven't seen any evidence so far that it's ease of availability has significantly impacted the demand from entertainers.
Frankly I would say the continued persistence of the AFK Entertainers that can apply the buff passively have done more to harm demand for the buff for actual playing entertainers. Dantooine MO is probably the most active spot in the game, but the cantina there is so crammed with AFK ents, that playing ents rarely go there. Just think of all the lost opportunities there. If you are really concerned about affecting demand for dedicated entertainer players, I would suggest that your time would be better spent making sure that live players (the ones who actually *want* to be entertainers) are the only ones who can provide the buffs. That would serve the community far more than trying to discourage a few people from trying out basic entertainer skills and getting the simplest benefits.
The other possible solution is to move some of the skills further up the tree to require more of an investment to get the benefit, and this is also an acceptible solution. There's no particular reason that all skills should be granted at the lowest level, it gives people a reason to advance and a reward for doing so, as well as requiring more dedication to the profession to get the benfits.
The buffs in their present form still need some tweaking anyway. You need to make sure that lower buffs don't overwrite the upper buffs, and maybe a player should have the opportunity to choose whether any buff overwrites another. I think the problems of unwanted buffs overwriting desired buffs outweigh the convenience of having a desired buff automatically replace an undesired one. If there is an easy way for a player to dismiss an undesired buff, then the automatic overwriting is not necessary. This is especially important to consider when the automatic overwriting can interfere with a patron who may want to listen to a musician, but can't because using the /listen command would overwrite some existing buff. That's unacceptable.
Another problem is that there is the possibility of unexpected results if a patron /watches a dancer and /listens to a musician at the same time. There should be a way of ensuring desired results such as having the advanced buff take priority over the generic buff. This might be the one case where it is desirable for one buff to automatically overwrite another - if an advanced buff overwrites the generic one.
I hope you will take some time to reconsider the arguments presented in this thread. It is unusual and unfair that Entertainers cannot benefit from their own skills. We would be the only profession in the game to have that restriction. Of course we are also the only profession in the game that can be mastered entirely with an AFK macro, the only profession that must spend experience points to acquire some added skills (Western and Theatrical), and the only profession that has the stigma of being considered just "an AFK profession".