Entertainer Archive

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Tralmek wrote:

.....Virtually every other profession has had at least some attention paid to it.....

Entertainers just got several types of special effect droids (which are really cool when used effectively) and the holoemotes from IDs can also be used for cool effects during a performance. I think these are great for lower level entertainers who don't have profession special effects available to them. OK, so this isn't new dances/music, but it does allow for new combinations to be created by the entertainers themselves.

I know they can do more than they are doing right now, and they could do even more if they tried hiring a new team to work on their new game and kept their old team working on An Empire Divided. There was absolutely NO excuse to pull devs off of An Empire Divided to work on Jump to Lightspeed.

JTL isn't a new game. It's an extension of the current one that is going to provide a lot of new opportunities for a lot of professions. They're putting the "Star" in Star Wars. I think that's a very justifiable thing to put devs attention on to. It would be virtually impossible to hire a new team just to work on an expansion for the current one (kind of like a giant publish) and expect it to mesh with the current team's work without some serious effort on both ends.

.....Also, look at the crap answers we've been getting in the 16 Answers! Last time TH didn't get a question from our Correspondants, he told them they were not to submit the questions until the next time and then he went and picked his own question for our professions!.....

The 19 Answers are only going to be as good as the questions, in many cases. If a question wasn't submitted to TH by the deadline (and the deadline is there because so many different teams need to be contacted to get an answer), would you have preferred that he didn't provide any kind of information? I can just imagine the uproar there would have been if a class had been overlooked for a 19 Answers. One of the things I've noticed is that many professions are taking 19 Questions and trying to turn it into 19 Requests-Phrased-Like-a-Question.

.....They work exactly the same, and in some ways worse than when the game first started......

I don't know that things work worse than when the game started. The basic functions of entertainers work (healing battle fatigue and being able to provide music and dance entertainment) as intended, which is more than can be said for many other professions. As far as entertainer buffs go, the devs are aware of the problem and are working on fixing it. Some suggestions that were made included an interface window similar to IDs regarding the status of buffs. Hearing the old "known issue" and "working on the problem" may be vague and repetitive, but if it's the truth.... What they've asked for is concise and constructive suggestions to problems. And if it's been given before, then what's the harm in giving it again? If you take a second to think about the sheer volume of things they juggle for each profession, it's amazing that they're able to sort through as much information as they do.

.....As a final slap in the face, the Devs have made it easy for Buffbots and AFK macrotainers to flood the cantinas with NPCs that perform similar functions to us.....

It's really no different than people who grind themselves to master in any profession, at least the crafting ones. This is a problem that they want fixed. They've said that. The problem is that they don't have a workable solution yet. Here again they've asked for concise and constructive. That doesn't mean several threads all over the placethat are 6+ pages long.

....the Image Designers finally got some well-deserved attention, but you know what? They got a "fix" to their profession that has driven a bunch of good ID's away from it.....

The only real thing I've seen complained about is the time it now takes to master ID. Considering it could be done in 1 hour and 20 minutes before, any increase was going to provoke flames from the people who just wanted to master in a hurry. Most of the response has been positive from the ID community about the new changes. That's really more of a discussion for the ID forums though. They are a social class, though, and yes they got attention. So it's not really fair to say that only combat classes get attention, although they tend to get the most (but most players are combat professions so it does make sense in many ways).

The main thing I'd like to get across from my point of view is that the main problem I'm hearing here isn't about what the devs have done to the entertainer classes. It's more about what the players have done to the entertainer classes, both those who are entertainers and those that have never been one ever. It's so much easier to blame all the problems in the entertaining classes on the devs for ignoring them. New music and dances and minor bug fixes would be great....but is it really necessary to have a publish all about that? Not when it's things that could be snuck in here and there. And not when the entertainers have many tools to enhance their profession beyond what the devs envisioned for it, as they already have done. A good part of being an entertainer (speaking from RL here), is creativity. It's not the variety of songs or dances that defines an entertainer. Rather it is the way in which you perform that makes an entertainer. So you don't have all the cool gadgets and features that you'd like? Take a cue from the "Home Show" features. The amazing things that are created out of the common and everyday things are mind-boggling. Entertainers have those same possibilities....they just have to create them for themselves.

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Khristen wrote:
A few quick comments to Tralmek's reply (and is by no means intended as a flame, simply a contrasting opinion):

Entertainers just got several types of special effect droids (which are really cool when used effectively) and the holoemotes from IDs can also be used for cool effects during a performance. I think these are great for lower level entertainers who don't have profession special effects available to them. OK, so this isn't new dances/music, but it does allow for new combinations to be created by the entertainers themselves. ...Droid Engineers got several new modules to add to their droids. Yes this is a nice perk to Entertainers as well, but it didn't really adda whole lot to our professions, it mainly added something to DE. ID's got cool effects which other Entertainers can use, yes. But again, this is a perk mainly to the ID profession, not to Dancer, Entertainer, or Musician.

JTL isn't a new game. It's an extension of the current one that is going to provide a lot of new opportunities for a lot of professions. They're putting the "Star" in Star Wars. I think that's a very justifiable thing to put devs attention on to. It would be virtually impossible to hire a new team just to work on an expansion for the current one (kind of like a giant publish) and expect it to mesh with the current team's work without some serious effort on both ends. Correct me where I'm wrong, but I am going to have to pay for JTL. It is not a publish. Besides, in their official releases they talk about JTL as if it will be a seperate game...telling us it will integrate nearly seamlessly with "the ground-based game" and other things like that. They are even changing the style of fighting in JTL. It seems to me that this is almost an entirely new game and they should not abandon the current game in favor of that one. Additionally, since so many things are fundamentally different about JTL,it would probablybe more effective to hire a new team to work on it while the old team works on improving An Empire Divided. There's no reason the two teams can't interface to work out issues on integration.

The 19 Answers are only going to be as good as the questions, in many cases. If a question wasn't submitted to TH by the deadline (and the deadline is there because so many different teams need to be contacted to get an answer), would you have preferred that he didn't provide any kind of information? No, what I would prefer is ifsomeone at SOEactually picked up on the "new improved" SOE policy from the State of the Gameand actually started being open and honest with us. The reason TH did not get a question from us "on time" is because he told our correspondants to wait and submit it to him next week. Our correspondants are stellar, but they get brushed aside just like the rest of the Entertainers.

I don't know that things work worse than when the game started. The basic functions of entertainers work (healing battle fatigue and being able to provide music and dance entertainment) as intended, which is more than can be said for many other professions. As far as entertainer buffs go, the devs are aware of the problem and are working on fixing it. *snip* And if it's been given before, then what's the harm in giving it again?*snip* The Devs are working on our buffs as they find time to do it...which most likely means after Jedi, after Comabt Balance, after fixing the bugs with those, after JTL, after fixing the bugs in JTL.... We have provided lists upon lists of things for the past year that need to be fixed, most things on the list have been there all year, but they have yet to be fixed.

It's really no different than people who grind themselves to master in any profession, at least the crafting ones. This is a problem that they want fixed. They've said that. The problem is that they don't have a workable solution yet. Here again they've asked for concise and constructive. That doesn't mean several threads all over the placethat are 6+ pages long. They've said that, but they've done nothing to correct it. They've only encouraged it. Yes, they have asked for community suggestions, and we have provided that on a stickied thread in the forums. Since that thread has had no Dev response and people forget about it over time (It's been there for months and months and months...), other threads are bound to crop up about the issue because it is so game-breaking for us.

The only real thing I've seen complained about is the time it now takes to master ID. Considering it could be done in 1 hour and 20 minutes before, any increase was going to provoke flames from the people who just wanted to master in a hurry. Most of the response has been positive from the ID community about the new changes. That's really more of a discussion for the ID forums though. They are a social class, though, and yes they got attention. So it's not really fair to say that only combat classes get attention, although they tend to get the most I'm not saying it wasn't a good thing, I'm saying it was poorly executed. Yes there has been positive feedback, but there has been at least as much, if not more negative feedback. There are also dozens of ID's who were masters or near-masters who just couldn't handle what the changes did to their profession. Here I'll add some extra emphasis: please point out where I EVER said thatONLY combat classes get attention. I never said that. I believe, however that combat classes are the only ones which receive regular attention, and seem to be the only ones where issues are addressed in a timely manner. I pay my money just like them. Entertainers deserve some love too.

(but most players are combat professions so it does make sense in many ways). Apparently those down at SOE disagree with you. They are pouring a huge effort into Jedi right now, and unless I'm mistaken there are a lot fewer Jedi than there are Entertainers. Obviously, size matters not

The main thing I'd like to get across from my point of view is that the main problem I'm hearing here isn't about what the devs have done to the entertainer classes.You're right, of course, its more what the Devs haven't done. Also, AFK macroers and buffbotsare simply exploiting the tools the Devs gave them in-game. It's well past time for the Devs to do something to remedy that. It's more about what the players have done to the entertainer classes, both those who are entertainers and those that have never been one ever. It's so much easier to blame all the problems in the entertaining classes on the devs for ignoring them.No, I push a fair amount of blame on the AFK macrotainers and the buffbots, as well as on myself and otherEntertainers who have allowed this problem to go on for so long. We should have done something aboutthis long ago, but we kept trying to fool ourselves into believing the best in the Devs, we kept trying to believe that we would get attention when it was due. New music and dances and minor bug fixes would be great....but is it really necessary to have a publish all about that?Yes. Again, SOE told us we would be getting a minipublish (9.2 if Irecall correctly)*snip* And not when the entertainers have many tools to enhance their profession beyond what the devs envisioned for it, as they already have done. A good part of being an entertainer (speaking from RL here), is creativity.No joke.It's not the variety of songs or dances that defines an entertainer. Rather it is the way in which you perform that makes an entertainer....and...? Just because I can make the profession interesting beyond anything the Devs imagined means I should allow them to ignore the profession? I'm not really seeing your point here. Ifall the professions were like they were on day 1, I could still make them interesting, but that does notmean they shouldn't be made more interesting by theDevs. So you don't have all the cool gadgets and features that you'd like? Take a cue from the "Home Show" features. The amazing things that are created out of the common and everyday things are mind-boggling. Entertainers have those same possibilities....they just have to create them for themselves. I work my butt off when I'm Entertaining as a Dancer, Entertainer, or Musician. I work my butt off whether or not I'm roleplaying. I create my own content, and my friends who have been able to stand the vendetta against our profession also create their own content. Again, just because we can do this does not mean we shouldn't ask for more tools to make it that much easier for us.

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I'm tired of promises from SOE. They almostnever pan out, especially not for Entertainers. They need to actually DO something, and that something needs to be fairly substantial, otherwise the vast majority of Entertainers will still not be satisfied. (One major thing I can think of that would improve ourpleasure immensly is if they found a way to eliminate even 99% of the AFK LAMers and buffbots. It would return our professions to a better place in the galaxy...one closer to what we had in the beginning.)

I want to thank you, Khristen for forming your reply in a constructive manner. It's much better written than some of the responses I've seen to this thread.

-Lilo

*begin edit*

Whoops, and a note about the 16 Answers...I'm using the number 16 for a reason...

Message Edited by Tralmek on 06-14-2004 11:17 PM

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Shiznat9000 wrote:

Every profession has problems, some more then others, but I don't think entertainers are one of those. As a Musician and Entertainer, I have to disagree. Our gameplay has been really stagnant for quite a long long time.

Right now you can do all the things that ents were originally planed to do without any major issues or bugs (except for the recent gating of ID xp). How many times has a musician buff or dancer buff just plain failed to work when everything seemed to have been done right? As a buffer, not a buffee, lemme tell ya - it happens quite a bit. Also, don't get me started about how Musicians can't tell in any way shape or form if we even buffed someone...that's a serious problem.

Yours is mainly a RP profession so it shouldn't require as much attention as say the combat professions that are entirely dependent on their abilities and content. I see no reason why a combat profession's need for new contentis anymore important or different than an entertainer profession's need for new content.

Ents are supposed to create their own social content. Social content is fine, and yes, we create our own social content all the time. Social content isn't the problem - it's the profession's content that is. Try playing for 6 months to the same 8 sounds looping through the same 10 songs and tell me how social you feel after that. Or, dancing to the same dances that've been around forever.

SoI knowitsucks for you that they put off the Hutt casino and that other social dungeon while adding the corvette and DWB for the combat guys, but they didn't really have a choice, they have to add content based on the numbers.There is a gigantic social player base in this game. Combat players very often have entertainer professions as an extra profession. There is enormous potential for socialand casual gamers to play SWG in greater numbers, if the entertainer experience wasn't so stagnantand feature-less.

More people would enjoy the corvette thena casino. I disagree. SWG is a Role Playing Game. People don't go into the Corellian Corvette to roleplay. They do, however, enjoy a fun and interesting place to act out their characters and socialize with others. Sterile and lifeless cantinas (lifeless from AFK'ers or buffbots) have destroyed the Cantina as a place of gathering and RP'ing. We weren't even issued any kind of apology for our only new real content added in a long time, it was just a "oh, this is getting bumped back too, by the way." Also, by the way, I've heard countless combat folks who don't enjoy the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker a bit, because it demands everyone be an incredible Uber fighter, and it's ridiculous spawns are just too much.

Well since there aren't that many ents left, go ahead and have your protest, its not too likely to bring any servers down. This is true.Our numbersare dwindling and our profession is dying. And we won't bring any servers down, howeverour intention is not to destroy anyone else's game - it's to finally improve OUR gameplay.

I just think you'll look kind of sillyspaming that you want a few skill mods in the FS trees. I've seen the trees on TC, except for the 2 extra experiment points crafters will get, the mods are pretty weak and a lot of people might not be willing to even spend the 1 skill point they take. We have more issues to address than the FS trees. That was just the last straw. Also, at least those people have the OPTION to try their weak new skills, unlike us who get nothing, as has been the case for far too long.

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Message Edited by AKawolski on 06-14-2004 04:53 PM

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OneWonder wrote:

Look they have already stated when they revamp entertainers it'll be after the expansion...

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Do you honestly think that we'll see anymore attention after the expansion? Its quite a safe bet that most of their resources will be taken by fixing bugs in JTL and focusing on that side of things.

'We said what about a Hutt casino? hmmm well....Ooooh but look at the nice shiney spaceships!'

Thats my prediction anyway...and i found it petrified in a well in Knaresborough so it must be true.

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Bajonett wrote:

Rats thats a bit late for the Euro people to join in.

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Anyone is welcome to play in front of Theed Starport at any time - it would be great to keep bands together there ALL the time.

I'd like to clarify and hone in on the focus of this protest, for starters. Ultimately, we're looking to have more interaction/content from the Devs. This will not and cannot happen over night.

First, we need to remind the playerbase at large that there is Entertaining, and there is Healing. We can do both. Our main focus for these Theed Starport jams should be "We got so tired of AFK'ers and buffbots filling the cantinas, we're taking our act into the streets!" If anyone /tells you that they want to know why we're all playing there, tell em that the Devs haven't done a thing to relieve the AFK'ers and buffbots, and we're growing tired of it. Tell em it's affecting our enjoyment of the game. Keep it in /tells, though - please try to NOT "whine" in Spatial.

I know we're all frustrated, but we need to keep this as positive as possible. Let's make this a good time, have fun, really perform for some folks at the Starport! Let's get out of the AFKantina and out where folks can see us!

I think we need to address the player base's view of us first, show how we're just as much entertainers as we are mind healers and buffers. We're not little animatronic healbots at their disposal. If we focus our efforts on our displeasure with AFK'ers, lots of people will likely support us - they hate em, too. And we'll get a lot more support out of people for attention to our problems if we make that our focal point. The other fixes will come, once we get some attention.

Let's have fun and NOT be AFK in front of Theed Starport tonight! Have a good time! Enjoy yourselves and your bandmates!

Thanks.

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picklesSW wrote:
Just a quick note to those who came over from other forums and other professions to pitch their hat into the ring here.

If you haven't "walked a mile in their shoes", that is, if you haven't actually played an entertainer/musician/dancer for a few months as your primary profession, without being AFK all the time, but played it as it was truly meant to be played, than you have not earned the right to pass judgement in either direction upon the state of these professions.

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Very good point. Just as a side note, I've shared an entertainer character (once Master Dancer and then Master Musician) before so I know some of the issues and I'm not just blowing unbased theories Smugglers, BH, Carbineers, what have you have their own legitimate concerns, but this is hardly the place to drag that up. I don't think any one profession is more important than another (at least the way they were originally designed).

And thanks, Tralmak, for not taking my response as a flame as it wasn't intended to be one I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, but no one ever said we all had to agree! If I misinterpreted anything, I apologize. I didn't realize that's what had happened with the 19 Questions thing. I certainly don't doubt the dedication of any correspondant! I wish I had the energy to do what they do for us all.

I do think that gathering a ton of entertainers at least once a week to just get out there and play is a wonderful thing. If done right, I think it could go a long way in changing the attitudes of some other players towards entertainers. With a little dev love in the right areas, entertainer could really gain the popularity it had back in the "old days" before so many people moved on to other things. Looking at the ID mini-publish, though, it only lasts until the newness wears off and then it goes back to the way it was before. This has happened with several other professions and will most likely continue to do so. The rest of the players need to see entertainers as something more than AFK-bots. There are players out there that don't realize that there are players out there that don't AFK and actually play the profession for what it is. That's the mindset that I see as one of the inherent problems that the entertainer community faces. Tools are great, but if the rest of the community (meaning non-entertainers) don't see the entertainer professions as a valuable part of the galaxy--other than as bots--not much is gained.

One other suggestion for the gathering-thing...maybe plan an "invasion" of ATK entertainers in different cities starports and cantinas each week so that several areas get a boost in entertainer activity. Many times people avoid the big cities because of lag issues and tend to get a little pissy at people who might be causing it.

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TuvarSwaeda wrote:

Anyway, I guess we'll see what happens...good luck with your portest. and thanx in advance for the extra lag, thats a great way to get attention, slow everyone down and ruin their enjoyment for a useless cause!

EDIT: It seems fairly obvious that someone just went through and one starred everyone that disagreed with this idea...so i await my fate.

Message Edited by TuvarSwaeda on 06-15-2004 01:01 PM

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