Entertainer Archive
Thread: Entertainer Strike On Naritus
Chessack wrote:
He did not bother to tip me for that. Personally, I think that was somehwhat rude on his part. He knew darn well I was ready to log out and had just hung around to heal his sorry butt, and he couldn't be bothered to send a few credits my way?
As a note: this is the kind of behavior that makes dancers want to have a cover charge or /deny people. And I do sympathize. I don't agree that it will make things better -- I think it'll make them worse. The stingy people will pay minimum and the people who had been generous will be so ticked off they also will pay minimum, and our tips will go down. But that does not justify what these cheap morons are doing.
Bleh. I hate people like those.
And really, the /deny service wouldn't have helped you in that case. You could have simply said, "I'll dance if you pay me 1000 up front." But you were nice and didn't do that. I'd have done the same thing. If we had the option to /deny, this scenario would have still played itself out because you were not the type of person to insist on money beforehand. If you were, this would not have been a problem.
I do a lot of dancing in Wayfar. I don't need the experience. I enjoy the tips, which are slightly more than Bestine. It's cozy. If things get slow, I can always go hunting and come back to a hungry audience.
I do not refuse to dance for people. However, I make it a point to find out who the medics are in town (if there are any). If someone walks out without tipping, I send a /tell to the medics (usually only one medic) and warn him. The medic seems to appreciate it when I send a /tell of "Wow, this guy just tipped me 3000 credits!" Interestingly enough, that person goes to the front of the line. Heh.
The sad thing is that my large tipper didn't tip the medic at all. Once again, showing how bad off medics (and I'm sure male performers) have it. *sigh*
Chessack wrote:
Yup.
Obviously, it did not work, or the original poster would've come back to this board and crowed about his great victory.
Instead, the strikers' silence is deafening.
C
Although, to be fair, Ornen has not logged in since the 17th, one day after the strike.
Unless he/she is reading the board anonymously and refuses to log on, I doubt the user even has a chance to respond.
But it sounds like the strike was a bust, which is what I expected. The backlash wasn't as bad as I feared, which is comforting.
Kuildeous wrote:
the /deny service wouldn't have helped you in that case. You could have simply said, "I'll dance if you pay me 1000 up front." But you were nice and didn't do that.
Even if I, the player, had wanted to, my character wouldn't do it. She likes to dance and is very charitable. That's what I get for playing someone nice... but I can't help it. Characters come to me; I don't completely make them up. They kind of have a life of their own, and often evolve in directions I don't expect. For instance, I never thought this one would take up marksmanship (I was going to leave that for a 2nd character later on). But she really looks up to one of the older dancers and that one has become a bit of a loose-cannon gunslinger, so Dejah is kind of following along in her footsteps a little (though she is currently doing it in secret, in the hope of surprising her "mentor" with new-found rifle abilities in a few weeks).
I'm a good enough roleplayer that even if I strongly dislike the player of a PC for some reason, my character won't behave differently toward the other PC unless in-character actions (roleplay) dictate she should, and so forth. And because she dances for the love of it not just for tips, she'd never have said, "Tip me first if you want me to dance."
And really, she shouldn't have to. Nor should a medic have to.
It's sad that the Coronet entertainers felt they had to go on strike to get the respect they deserved. As I said, I see such behavior as doomed to failure before it has even begun, but I understand their feelings on the matter.
As to the original poster not having logged in... there were 15 strikers. Surely, if it had worked as they were hoping, someone would've posted here to crow about it. But I think we all know just how well it did -- or rather, didn't -- work.
C
CantinaFly wrote:
Given the position you are in, you are either with the strikers, or with the cheap asswipes that entertainers should heal them for nothing more than the pleasure of "providing a public service".
Here's the problem, CF -- not everyone who entered the cantina looking for healing during the strike was a cheapo. The strikes weren't punishing the cheapskates, they were punishing everyone. That'd be like hitting Coronet with an A-bomb that kills the entire population because you're mad at a few of them.
The Coronet entertainers admit there are a lot of them (15) and they gripe that they don't make enough money, but as both Ndainye and I pointed out, it is hard to make money when there are so many of you... players cannot afford to tip 1K per person to a 15 person band (15K) after doing 5 K in missions -- it just doesn't work that way. So they pay 100 cr each, which amounts to a lot to them (1500 cr) but very little for the entertainers.
Does that mean no one is a freeloader? No. There are lots of freeloaders. But the strike punished freeloaders and generous patrons alike, and more than like ticked off the generous patrons the most -- because after their generosity it is a slap in the face to have this happen. I would rather let 10 freeloaders heal off me like parasites than upset a single one of the many, many very nice people who have been plenty generous with their tips and plenty friendly and reciprocating in their RP.
All of this crap people are going on about how they have more important expenses...buddy, if healing your battle fatigue and mind wounds rates lower than buying a new gun, LIVE WITH THE MIND WOUNDS.
This, I agree with in principle. I just don't think you can force tips.... the Entertainment profession just is not designed to be a money-grinding industry. If you're in it to be rich monetarily, you're in the wrong line of work.
On the other hand, if you are in it to become rich in terms of RP, then Entertainment is the biz for you... and it is for me.
Nobody will respect you until you force them to.
This is fundamentally incorrect. You cannot force people to respect you and, in general, actions you take to try and coerce respect will erode or eliminate it. It's like the bully in the school yard. "Respect me, or ELSE!" (cracking of knuckles, sneer, glare). Oh, you might act respectful because you don't want to get your nose broken, but you are not going to actually respect him, and the first chance you get to turn the tables on him, you are going to take it.
On the other hand, someone who acts like a fine, upstanding individual, who earns respect through being a decent human being, is going to keep that respect for a long time to come, and it will be genuine.
If you are trying to get the PVP killers and the hack-and-looters and the people who view this game as little more than a first-person-shooter, then you may as well forget it. They never, ever will. Nothing you can do will change that. Even if you could /deny them or /force-tip them or whatever you want to call it, they will give the money grudgingly, angrily, and under duress only -- they will not respect you. Or ask yourself -- how many people like and respect the IRS? Oh, but by your reasoning we all should, because the IRS, as an arm of the government, forces us, under pain of imprisonment, to pay money to them.
Nope. Nobody likes the IRS. They are universally hated and deplored. They are mocked. They are sneered at by the general public. We are powerless against them (in general) and we have to pay what they say, but we hate them for it, and the second anyone has a chance to screw the IRS over, they usually take it with a gleeful cackle and are applauded by everyone around them for "sticking it to the IRS."
On the other hand, take a charitable organization, such as the Salvation Army. Poorer? Yes. Unable to force peple to give to it? Yes. But way, WAY more people respect the Salvation Army, than respect the IRS.
No, those who want tips to be voluntary are not relying on "communism." Communism is when you force people who have lots of money to give it to those who don't have it... that sounds, to me, like what all the strikers want to do -- force a re-distribution of the wealth.
Yes, entertainers are performing a service. YES, they should be paid for it. But this should be done as a tip, just the way they have it in the game. My character makes plenty on tips most nights, and I wouldn't have it be any other way.
C
Orius wrote:-If i walk into a cantina and there are a couple separate dancers i will /watch one of them and after im finished i will tip that person.
-If i walk into a cantina and there is a group of like 8+ people there is no well in hell im tipping all of you, since it would be unfair to tip just one since you are benifiting from the whole group i wont tip anyone.
Except for the couple of exploits that pop up sometimes, money is NOT easy to get as a fighter. If im trying to level up i dont have time to sit there and do 5k missions all day just to tip my entertainers. I have meds, buffs, foods, spices, armor, weapons, powerups, and more to pay for. Sorry, its nothing personal i just cant waste my money that way. If you want money you can go do missions like the rest of us. If you cant do destroy missions do delivery missions.
What we have to do, as entertainers, is just start passing the names of the people who do not tip at ALL, after coming in with serious wounds.
If you pop in for 20 bf and 10 mind wounds, woopie. But if you come in with a whole bar full of mind wounds and 500 BF, and you don't tip, you're a cheap little bugger.
But you're probably like that RL too.. Not tipping waitresses, being rude.. Mm. When I was in food service, we called y'all 'Spiteaters'.. and lets just say thats the NICEST thing that got mixed into your dinner.
I made Master Dancer on Naritas.. I'm not really playing that character anymore - money via deliver missions is *DULL*. Without Entertainer Healing XP and Dancing Xp to make dancing for the various doofi, its just not worth it anymore.
They really need to come up with a way to exclude people from the healing. Or default to exclude, and we have to include.. I picked up Novice Medic, just to beable to diagnose.. I'd be dancing, see some guy with like 500+ in wounds.. ask when he left, and he gives a 50 credit tip.
having *BEEN* a dancer, I'll guarantee to you that my warrior characters tip. And tip well. And tip often. I go out, earn 10k doing destroy missions, need to heal up that BF.. 500 credits is 5%. A reasonable tip. 500 more to the medic for my wounds and I'm set. And I made 9,000. How is that bad?!?
Yea, you gotta buy weapons. Just wait. Keep making it not worth doing and what will you do when that BF hits 5000? A ticket to the next town and back is 200-400 credits, plus at least 10 minutes waiting for shuttles unless you're lucky.. And if a town doesn't feel like entertaining you, THATS what you have to deal with.
Go in and see a group of 8? So? pick one, watch him or her, and tip that person.
DEVS: GIVE US /GROUPTIP! That'll deal with this whole problem, *PLUS* get rid of most of the AFK dancers.
Chessack wrote:
This, I agree with in principle. I just don't think you can force tips.... the Entertainment profession just is not designed to be a money-grinding industry. If you're in it to be rich monetarily, you're in the wrong line of work.
On the other hand, if you are in it to become rich in terms of RP, then Entertainment is the biz for you... and it is for me.
I've heard this argument before, and no matter how many of you idealistic hippies bombard me with this crap about how it should be "all about the music" or whatever, you're still full of it. You can't create real art in this game; the engine isn't set up for it. The game allows you to provide a service, a healing service, that is vital to the game. For you to be reduced to living like a bag lady while at the same time saving the life (literally, in the long run) of some powergaming retard making 10k every 5 minutes is not only naive, it's illogical. I don't know...maybe some of you were abused as children and were told that you weren't worth anything...that's your own business. But those of us with normal upbringing expect to be respected, or at least compensated for the work we do. Every other class has the ability to enforce this.
You cannot force people to respect you and, in general, actions you take to try and coerce respect will erode or eliminate it. It's like the bully in the school yard. "Respect me, or ELSE!" (cracking of knuckles, sneer, glare). Oh, you might act respectful because you don't want to get your nose broken, but you are not going to actually respect him, and the first chance you get to turn the tables on him, you are going to take it.
On the other hand, someone who acts like a fine, upstanding individual, who earns respect through being a decent human being, is going to keep that respect for a long time to come, and it will be genuine.
Right...and freely volunteering a crucial service for no compensation is sure to make people respect you. After all, who is more respected than a doormat with no self-esteem and no thought of looking out for themselves?
If you are trying to get the PVP killers and the hack-and-looters and the people who view this game as little more than a first-person-shooter, then you may as well forget it. They never, ever will. Nothing you can do will change that. Even if you could /deny them or /force-tip them or whatever you want to call it, they will give the money grudgingly, angrily, and under duress only -- they will not respect you. Or ask yourself -- how many people like and respect the IRS? Oh, but by your reasoning we all should, because the IRS, as an arm of the government, forces us, under pain of imprisonment, to pay money to them.
Nope. Nobody likes the IRS. They are universally hated and deplored. They are mocked. They are sneered at by the general public. We are powerless against them (in general) and we have to pay what they say, but we hate them for it, and the second anyone has a chance to screw the IRS over, they usually take it with a gleeful cackle and are applauded by everyone around them for "sticking it to the IRS."
On the other hand, take a charitable organization, such as the Salvation Army. Poorer? Yes. Unable to force peple to give to it? Yes. But way, WAY more people respect the Salvation Army, than respect the IRS.
No, those who want tips to be voluntary are not relying on "communism." Communism is when you force people who have lots of money to give it to those who don't have it... that sounds, to me, like what all the strikers want to do -- force a re-distribution of the wealth.
Yes, entertainers are performing a service. YES, they should be paid for it. But this should be done as a tip, just the way they have it in the game. My character makes plenty on tips most nights, and I wouldn't have it be any other way.
C
Oh please. Nobody respects you, and they never will. And that goes back to the fact that most people don't see entertaining as a "real" profession; changing that isn't a realistic goal. But you can **edit** sure make someone respect you if you have money and clout. It may not be a "loving" respect, but it's respect all the same. You say that people don't respect the IRS? I disagree. They may not LIKE the IRS, but they **edit** sure do respect them. People call them "sir" and "ma'am", fill out their information properly, and when they don't, they face the consequences. Entertainers, and all other professions in SWG, should enjoy the same respect. And those "PVP killers and the hack-and-looters" are going to respect my "pay me or keep your battle wounds" entertainer a whole lot more than they're going to respect your flower-picking volunteer. Hell, here I am responding to your post and *I* don't even respect you. And for the record, Communism isn't just "when you force people who have lots of money to give it to those who don't have it". It also involves forcing people to work without being paid in relation to their job performance. Not to mention the fact that your analogy was completely invalid, inasmuch as what is being discussed here is not simply a redistribution of wealth. I'm not talking about forcing high level marksmen to give money away to newbies. I'm talking about forcing them to pay for something they should have been paying for this whole time. Time is money, and what you are proposing is continuing to make entertainers give freely of their time (money) to others with no compensation. So yes, you ARE engaging in a naive, misguided attempt at Communism. At best, you might be able to call yourself a Socialist.
BRAVO, Chessack!
I totally agree - You'll pay for everything else, pay for your healing.
CantinaFly wrote:
Okay, I've got a lot to say, so I'm going to organize it in parts.
First of all, to the whiny scab who thinks it's unfair for the strikers to blacklist her.
If you didn't want to piss people off, you shouldn't have crossed the picket line. Frankly, you were stupid to have returned the tips, since the refusal was probably the most pathetic attempt at taking a moral stand I have ever heard of. You want to be neutral, but neutral isn't a real option here. Given the position you are in, you are either with the strikers, or with the cheap asswipes that entertainers should heal them for nothing more than the pleasure of "providing a public service". You chose your side, now live with it. Don't try to justify yourself or be diplomatic about it. Have some backbone; if there's anything I hate more than a scab, it's a spineless scab. That goes for the rest of you entertainers who seem to think you can live in some kind of quasi-communist fantasy world where it's okay for the services you provide to be devalued because people can't be forced to pay for them.
Your restaurant analogy, as many people have pointed out, is beyond retarded. I would expect better logic from a kindergarten class. A better analogy would be if a restaurant shut down because people refused to pay for their food. Entertainers provide a service, a unique service, and people need to pay for it. All of this crap people are going on about how they have more important expenses...buddy, if healing your battle fatigue and mind wounds rates lower than buying a new gun, LIVE WITH THE MIND WOUNDS. You shouldn't be given the option of taking a free ride. If you think that entertainment isn't worth paying for, try living without it. People like you are exactly why a deny services function is needed in this game. I applaud the actions taken by the strikers, and I'm going to go on a strike of my own, aimed at the brainless, spineless scabs who are undermining them. Until I am forced to by an in-game mechanic, I absolutely refuse to tip any entertainers. I encourage other non-entertainers to do the same. Those of you who think that everyone can simply live off of the kindness of others will hopefully soon get a lesson in reality. Nobody will respect you until you force them to.
just cause it seems like there is 2 people writing your post.. in the first paragraph and the first half of the second... you berate me because i wont force tips... but in the second half of the last paragraph... you say you willabsolutely refuse topay a tip to ANY entertainers and encourage other non-entertainers to pay them either...
sounds to me like its YOU that dont want to take a side... i took a very firm stand... i would not support the strike, but i wouldnt take advantage of it.
what is so wrong with not wanting to be like most that would have just went there to make tons of credits and rub it in the face of those that were outside?
in any case, the strike failed cause now they got very little to nobody to tip because of the strike since they only learned to not go to cornet for healing.
CantinaFly wrote:
I've heard this argument before, and no matter how many of you idealistic hippies bombard me with this crap about how it should be "all about the music" or whatever, you're still full of it. You can't create real art in this game; the engine isn't set up for it. The game allows you to provide a service, a healing service, that is vital to the game. For you to be reduced to living like a bag lady while at the same time saving the life (literally, in the long run) of some powergaming retard making 10k every 5 minutes is not only naive, it's illogical. I don't know...maybe some of you were abused as children and were told that you weren't worth anything...that's your own business. But those of us with normal upbringing expect to be respected, or at least compensated for the work we do. Every other class has the ability to enforce this.
Wow, so you really want to turn the entertainer industry into a cash cow of some sort, eh?
Have you considered that maybe the entertainer profession is not for you?
You say it's not "all about the music" because the players cannot create art. True, the players are not the artists here (though some do work hard to string together what flourishes they have available to them). But it is art for the characters. My character dances for the art. She dances when she feels like it. She dances in the cantina. She dances while waiting for the shuttle. She dances while waiting for the hunting party to hurry up and get organized.
My character's persona is that she enjoys dancing and doesn't demand money for doing what she enjoys. As a character, she would never engage in such a silly strike. As a player, I recognize the absurdity of the strike because the tipping system works. If, as an entertainer, you are not happy with your income, then do enough missions to buy a shuttle ticket and try another venue. Also, try to think up ways to convince the patrons to tip you (hint: Repeating, "tip me plz," is NOT the way to go).
But if you want to organize some extortion racket where you force people to pay you, heh, go ahead. I'll be sitting here chuckling at you as I get my usual tips. The tips are out there. You may have to search for them; similar to a bounty hunter searching for his income.
In a sense, this mirrors real life pretty well. There are a lot of "starving artists" trying to hit it big. How many of these artists get paid a lot? A small percentage, and usually it's because they were lucky enough to be discovered. Same thing here. If you don't want to roleplay a starving artist, then try a different profession and see if it's to your liking.
CantinaFly wrote:
Oh please. Nobody respects you, and they never will. And that goes back to the fact that most people don't see entertaining as a "real" profession; changing that isn't a realistic goal. But you can **edit** sure make someone respect you if you have money and clout. It may not be a "loving" respect, but it's respect all the same. You say that people don't respect the IRS? I disagree. They may not LIKE the IRS, but they **edit** sure do respect them. People call them "sir" and "ma'am", fill out their information properly, and when they don't, they face the consequences. Entertainers, and all other professions in SWG, should enjoy the same respect. And those "PVP killers and the hack-and-looters" are going to respect my "pay me or keep your battle wounds" entertainer a whole lot more than they're going to respect your flower-picking volunteer. Hell, here I am responding to your post and *I* don't even respect you. And for the record, Communism isn't just "when you force people who have lots of money to give it to those who don't have it". It also involves forcing people to work without being paid in relation to their job performance. Not to mention the fact that your analogy was completely invalid, inasmuch as what is being discussed here is not simply a redistribution of wealth. I'm not talking about forcing high level marksmen to give money away to newbies. I'm talking about forcing them to pay for something they should have been paying for this whole time. Time is money, and what you are proposing is continuing to make entertainers give freely of their time (money) to others with no compensation. So yes, you ARE engaging in a naive, misguided attempt at Communism. At best, you might be able to call yourself a Socialist.
Bwahahahaha...
IRS what? For starters, what percentage of people do you think actually deal directly with the IRS every year? 0.1% maybe? And WHO in the hell calls them "sir" and "ma'am"?! ROFL Your mom might call her tax agent "sir" or "ma'am" to be polite, but that isn't an actual IRS employee... if your mom is being contacted by the IRS then she is already in some serious trouble. LOL Seems to me that you are thinking of the wrong definition of respect here - there is a big difference between simply respecting the law and having respect for someone. I doubt there is a very high education level requirement for being an IRS collection agent, for example, so why would anyone have any particular respect for one?
"And those "PVP killers and the hack-and-looters" are going to respect my "pay me or keep your battle wounds" entertainer a whole lot more than they're going to respect your flower-picking volunteer."
Actually, they're going to resent you and go and listen to some real entertainers.
Hey Chessack, Cantina doesn't respect you... I think you should hang your head in shame. lol
Kuildeous wrote:You say it's not "all about the music" because the players cannot create art. True, the players are not the artists here (though some do work hard to string together what flourishes they have available to them). But it is art for the characters. My character dances for the art. She dances when she feels like it. She dances in the cantina. She dances while waiting for the shuttle. She dances while waiting for the hunting party to hurry up and get organized.
My character's persona is that she enjoys dancing and doesn't demand money for doing what she enjoys. As a character, she would never engage in such a silly strike. As a player, I recognize the absurdity of the strike because the tipping system works. If, as an entertainer, you are not happy with your income, then do enough missions to buy a shuttle ticket and try another venue. Also, try to think up ways to convince the patrons to tip you (hint: Repeating, "tip me plz," is NOT the way to go).
LOL! Kuildeous, I think you and I must be playing the same character! :-) Because you just described my PC to a "T".
I was going to respond alomst in exactly these words to CantinaFly, so I won't bother... You said it better than I could've anyway. Kudos.
Like Kuildeous apparently is, as a player I am first and foremost a roleplayer. As such I realize that credits are just a convenient fictional artifact of the game. To a roleplayer, all you need and want out of a game is a situation, something like a hook off of which you can roleplay. Being a "starving artist" as Kuildeous described, is just as good of a "hook" as being a wealthy movie star -- to a roleplayer, they are just fodder for a roleplay scene. In point of fact, adversity often lends itself better than good times, to a good dramatic roleplay scene. Good roleplayers who don't have enough drama happen to them as a result of the game engine will often invent bad things fictionally, to give them something more angsty and thought-provoking to roleplay about. Playing the part of a struggling dancer trying to create her own art and hoping to one day "make it big" can be quite fun, if you let it.
So much of it depends on your goals in the game. I guess Cantina would consider me a "carebear" because I am not out for "the grind" and I am not out to garner the maximum amount of credits in the minimum amount of time possible. That's OK, though... I'm a roleplayer, so such things are barely on the radar screen most of the time, as long as I am getting decent RP.
As for 'respect', I think Cantina and I clearly have different definitions of respect. Cantina I guess would respect the bully in the school yard threatening to break his nose; I do not. I might have to act respectful on pain of having my nose broken, but I would not in fact respect him (and I don't in fact respect the IRS, though I would certainly fear them if they drew a bead on me for some reason). So we clearly have two different definitions of respect.
Within a game like this, there is only one set of people whose respect means anything at all to me: true roleplayers. Since I am one myself, I feel honored when someone else who is a good roleplayer compliments me on my roleplaying ability. The nice thing about this is that with true roleplayers it just happens -- I don't have to do anything but roleplay, and they will notice it and recognize it. That's the only group of people I have any real interest in. If the "l33t d00dz" don't respect me, why should I care? I'll tell you a little secret -- I don't respect them either. :-)
C
a) Expressing his point of view clearly
b) Being willing to discuss it
c) Not falling to level of CantinaFly's frothing insults, even after being provoked
Thank you, Chessack.