Entertainer Archive
Thread: Mind Damage, Entertainers in Battle a solution? Comments needed!
DangFiero wrote:
Hmm, what I gather from the Entertainers is: "We just want to stand around in the cantina, macro and get paid."
I don't see anyone paying us. I KNOW you don't, you've stated it before. And thanks to your attitude and the many that espouse it, the only ones left in the Cantina for you to get your BF healed off of are the AFK macroers, so enjoy the fruits of your hard-earned labor. I'll be out running destroy missions with my FWG5, just like you suggested.
Kae
Why not just make it simple, remove all type of mind damage? Granted a few people would cry, but it would balance everything out without having to change the whole theme of a Profession.
Riflemen, BH's and CM's are the only classes that target these pools is it really gonna make that much of a difference if they targeted Health and Action instead? this would basicly leave the Mind pool set as the more commonly known, Mana pool which Caster classes in most mmorpgs use to cast spells/heals.
Glug wrote:
Cool ideas, chief.
I think that for it to make some sense, it would have to require a Musician. You just can't watch someone dance and be effective in combat. I could see an elite Dancer distracting the enemy, but it would take a set of drums to inspire combatants (and strike fear into the hearts of the enemies) on the field.
Thank you. I'm kinda rushed at the moment, so if this isn't as detailed as my other replies, my apologies.
I really don't want to see either of them putting on a performance, as such. It'd seem a bit silly for them to stop firing, pull out a slitherhorn and start tooting away. Likewise, it'd be just as silly for them to stop tossing around blaster bolts in order to get their groove on.
I want to see an ability that demonstrates the entertainer's ability to raise the spirits of others, but I don't want it to be a performance-type ability. "Boost Morale" was the name that was bandied about before. Having entertainers do it is because they're the ones who target the mind pool for all other types of healing and enhancement, not really because I want them limited to playing music or dancing when the blaster bolts start firing.
Let them fight too, but give them a special ability that delays their attacks to back their group up.
Glug wrote:
I think it would have to be limited to drums actually, just as it has mostly been limited to drums in wars on earth. Nobody has a set of head phones and listens to Johnny's march. And even the scotts accompanied their bagpipes with drums.
...And then in the same breath that you would limit it to drums, you mention the bagpipes. Truth told, I'm not sure either example is really "Star Wars" in feel. Allowing Entertainers to perform in battle is a neat idea, but I'm not sure that it is totally accurate taken wholly in that form.
Glug wrote:
Come to think of it, this type of ability would probably be most suited for an elite class of 'Battle Drummer'. Let me tell you, I'd *pay* someone to group with me if it would result in some war drumming to replace the generic battle music the game gives you, even if it had no effect on my group or my enemy =)
Talk to some entertainers. They may not be able to do war drums, but I'm sure they could arrange something, and I'm sure with a musician and a andancer, you'd see the benefits of mind buffs. Having a band accompany you would be kinda interesting - but again, it's not really the final form of what I'm looking to see.
Entertainers of many stripes have visited the troops over the years just to raise their spirits. (Bob Hope?)
While few (if any) of them picked up a pistol and fought alongside the troops, I'm also not trying to limit Entertainers to a pre-and-post battle role, or to putting on a performance in the middle of a firefight. My examples of music and song in war were primarily to demonstrate that entertainersdo have a role in war, and have always had one - through raising the spirits of the fighters they support.
When your party's medic is mind damaged from healing and riflemen pounding him, why can't he duck around the corner, out of sight, to catch his breath and have an entertainer fall back to encourage him, thereby giving him the ability to fight on, and keep the rest of the group alive?
Sure, they'll only see the doc dropping stims on them... but it'd be the entertainer who really kept them alive when the chips were down.
Glug wrote:
Since Holo mentions that they're not looking at Entertainers being Bards, perhaps this alternate Entertainment-based Elite Battle Drummer class would be the way to go. Admittedly, the role is filled by a Squad Leader, but this would be the Entertainment Based version rather than the Combat based.
Currently, the squad leader does not fill this role, to my knowledge. No one can heal mind damage - and that's the reason it needs to be changed. It's a big loophole in the three-HAM system. Limiting this exclusively to a squad leader does not make sense, for the same reason that action and health healing are not limited to an elite class. Medics can heal both - they're a basic profession.
Entertainer, too, is a basic profession. Why not keep it symmetrical?
I'm not against giving Squad Leaders a version of this ability, nor against giving them a synergistic ability, but healing HAM wounds is really the province of the basic classes, and healing the mind is already the exclusive arena of the entertainers. Give Squad Leaders the ability to "equalize" HAM wounds, across the entire party - this sort of 'spreading out' effect could be on a reuse timer, and would allow a squad leader to neutralize the risks of having some severely damaged party members - and self-applied stims and entertainer morale-boosts would both be more effective with such an ability in place.
...but that's a different topic. That's for Squad Leaders. How can Entertainers be given the ability to participate in combat? Look at where NewJedi answered above - many of them have mastered an entertainer class and then gone on to master a combat profession.
I want to see them able to provide group benefit from BOTH classes, instead of only one.
...as for why I do not feel a new class should be created - read the rest of the thread. What do you put into a new class that doesn't just make them a "bard-in-space"? I agree with Holo on this - there is no place for an EQ bard in SWG. What I'm proposing isn't really a bard, it's more an offshoot of something like...
(sounds of blaster fire, shouts of "Medic!")
"Wow! Even Sy Snootles is fighting for our side! Come on boys, let's show 'em what we REALLY can do!"
(sounds of troops rallying and fighting on)
...and while that example may seem a bit silly, celebrity is nothing to be sneered at, in terms of its ability to affect people.
At the risk of throwing cold water on your bardic parade....
Basic proposal seems to be: Give entertainers (or an entertainer-type class) the ability to provide group buffs, specifically to the mind pool. Why? Because we need them and the doctors shouldn't have them, as they'd be too powerful.
1) Devs said entertainers were not combat classes.
2)Devs said entertainers wouldn't be bards. (Combat Engager? What do you think that REALLY means?)
3)There already EXISTS a profession that is supposed to be dedicated to group support and non-firepower buffs. It's called the SQUAD LEADER. Note that Squad Leader != Entertainer. And NO, they do NOT currently have an ability like this, although it IS in development ("Smoke-em-if-you-got-em") which is apparently going to work only in a camp and out of battle. What makes you think that you guys (the dancer/non-combats) deserve an active in-combat buff to mind regen if WE (the COMBAT SUPPORT CLASS) don't?
Sorry if there may be a hostile undertone to my post, but it's frustrating to live as a Master Squad Leader and see people happily discuss giving away "your" abilities and niche in the game to others....
While I think the thought of inclusion is charming, as a dancer and primarily only an entertainer and manager I don't think it fits at all into the paradigm. Not the Star Wars paradigm and not into real life either. And usually when I can't find a Star Warsanswer to a question I fall back on real life.
A lot of people choose to be entertainers *because* they don't want to have to kill things to have a rewarding social game experience. Or because they want to socialize and not spend undue time in a silent group listening to gunshots and yells of heal me or run...
What's needed is for everyone to respect everyone else's profession when its done right and treat everyone like valuable *fill in species name here*. I find that lacking a lot.
Economies are driven not just by those who mine or craft or kill but by those who consume...Service industries are well, well established in the American Public's eye. They pay for movies, they pay for shows, they pay for doctors fees, they pay to hear bands, they pay for virtual games. They pay big to be entertained. So it goes for SWG too. And there are people there who "WANT" to put on shows for them and be creative for them.
There are plenty of roleplayed player created ideas that can keep entertainers very busy if they so choose and if they feel there might be an appreciative audience, and what they do makes the game much deeper for everyone's immersion.
Cantina's were designed to be a semi-forced socializing downtime, because many people seem to like to play an online game and never want to deal with people. The attitude has never made sense to me, but there you go, this is a way to sort of nudge them back into a social dynamic which is rather the point of a massive online roleplaying game. If it wasn't you buy a game that doesn't hook up online and play through a better developed plot and more stable game there.
I would rather not be looked on as a healing bot or buffing bot to help someone kill one more animal or mauler (even though I do not like maulers). I would rather be looked at as a creative worthwhile ingame person who contributes to a community by running a business that people use for their own desires, relaxing, meeting place, entertainment. And I'd like to be respected for literally the hours and money and running and planning it takes to pull it off. As complicated and time consuming as any master created item all so others can have a good time or different experience.
sorry to burst your bubble entertainers are not a combat class and have no buisiness having any combat related skills, the idea behind them is to creat a social atmosphere in the cantinas... dont like it dont play em
as for healing mind dmg one of 2 things need to happen mind dmg needs to be dignifigantly lowered or damage needs to be added to stim packs plain and simple( yeah yeah it ruins the rifleman and combat medic... not) the ability to heal damage in the field thakes away the top two non stopable killers in the game and puts them on lvl playing field... now i know its hard to accept but with all the talk of balancing things it needs to be done
GWLlosa wrote:
At the risk of throwing cold water on your bardic parade....
Actually, my idea does not, and would not make entertainers into bards. I do not wish to see them given passive bonuses of any sort to any skill or ability in the game that they do not already possess.
I simply wish them to be able to heal mind damage. That's it. I don't know where anyone's getting the idea that I want, desire, or am proposing "BArd-In-Space" abilities. I've even posted on other threads why this is a bad idea.
GWLlosa wrote:
Basic proposal seems to be: Give entertainers (or an entertainer-type class) the ability to provide group buffs, specifically to the mind pool. Why? Because we need them and the doctors shouldn't have them, as they'd be too powerful.
Entertainers already provide group buffs to the mind pool and supporting stats. This is not an addition. This is a currently existing feature of the game. Allowing an entertainer to heal mind DAMAGE is the original proposal. The remainder of your post is a straw man, and has nothing to do with the original proposal.
GWLlosa wrote:
1) Devs said entertainers were not combat classes.
Yes. Thay also said "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." They also said commando weapons were "working as intended" when they had an IDEAL RANGE OF ZERO.
Don't go there.
GWLlosa wrote:
2)Devs said entertainers wouldn't be bards. (Combat Engager? What do you think that REALLY means?)
I don't want entertainer bards either. I think it'd be silly - this is not EQ. YOu'll note the author of the original proposal (That's me) specifically does NOT want a new "bardic" class, nor passive/active abilities that are like those of the EQ bard.
Period.
GWLlosa wrote:
3)There already EXIST
GWLlosa wrote:
3)There already EXISTS a profession that is supposed to be dedicated to group support and non-firepower buffs. It's called the SQUAD LEADER. Note that Squad Leader != Entertainer. And NO, they do NOT currently have an ability like this, although it IS in development ("Smoke-em-if-you-got-em") which is apparently going to work only in a camp and out of battle. What makes you think that you guys (the dancer/non-combats) deserve an active in-combat buff to mind regen if WE (the COMBAT SUPPORT CLASS) don't?
Straw man. Please return to the original subject - giving entertainers the ability to heal mind damage is the only proposal the author recommends. Entertainers do not have the ability to buff the mind outside of a cantina (or campsite?) nor do I want them to gain a buff of this nature, but I do want them to be able to support a battel group. They are currenlty the only basic class that cannot do so in any way.
Further, I'd like to see Squad Leaders given a couple of abilities to work in synergy with this ability.
- Give Squad Leaders the ability to equalize battle damage across a group at tehir own expense. Call it "Teamwork" or the like. This would allow a squad leader to spread damage out over the entire group, and give everyone a chance to survive a battle.
- Give Squad Leaders the ability to heal mind damage. To make this different, and to make it work in tandem with other existing and proposed abilities, make it more similar to a doctor stim - the squad leader losesfrom the action pool, but heals a large chunk of mind instantly. This should be an ability like "Encourage" or the like. Note that while the squad leader could focus their efforts for a large gain on one person, the entertainer's ability is more diffuse and not as useful in keeping a team alive while they are under attack.
I don't want to see squad leaders made into puppeteers. (Can you tell I browse your forums?) I think the concept they've given you guys is revolting. By the same token, I don't like seeing entertainers with no way to contribute to an ongoing combat, as they are the only basic class that does not contribute.
So tell me - what abilities can we give an entertainer that would work in synergy with the squad leader? How can we give mind healing to the entertainer class without it being a case of taking things away from a Squad Leader?
Smoke if you got 'em is a silly ability - it will do nothing to offset the severity of mind damage in PvP combat. Right now, when people get killed, it's by mind damage in the vast majority of cases. Allowing mind damage to be healed by squad leaders in a campsite is fine, but does nothing to offset damage taken in a battle. I want to see an ability that CAN be used in combat to offset mind damage.
If it's a squad leader ability, that's fine... but I'd prefer to see it on a basic class, and the Etnertainer class already has mind buffs and heals mind wounds. They are already the "doctor" for the mind pool. Why shouldentertainer based classesbe unable to heal mind damage, but able to heal mind wounds and create mind buffs?
Tandava wrote:
While I think the thought of inclusion is charming, as a dancer and primarily only an entertainer and manager I don't think it fits at all into the paradigm. Not the Star Wars paradigm and not into real life either. And usually when I can't find a Star Warsanswer to a question I fall back on real life.
The Star Wars paradigm doesn't focusexclusively on the noncombative or combat aspects of the world. The climax of any of the movies, books and so forth, however, is alwaysa fight. Why should entertainers be left out of the climax by design?
If an entertainer wished to be exempt from helping combat groups, instead wanting to focus exclusively on a noncombat existence, that's their right and priviledge. But even Artisans affect a combat, and get into scrapes of a violent nature. In the first case, it's a case of their products affecting the battle, and in the second, it's a case of checking their harvesters and having to fight to get to them.
You do know that elite entertainer classes receive combat bonuses, right?
This is a blatant design contradiction to the "they shouldn't be in combat" mindset. While these abilities are minimal compared to those of mastering a combat class, they are there, and demonstrate an entertainer already should havea role in combat, and benefits in same.
I think many entertainers don't like being "cooped up" in the cantinas of the world. Some wouldn't have it any other way. Giving entertainers the ability to contribute to a combat group does not hurt the secondgroup in any way, but gives the first set a reason to enjoy playing their entertainer outside, in the world. You know - among other people?
It's a way to discourage the "AFK-grinder" midset to some extent. People AFK because it's either better, or because it's boring. This would aim to fix the boring parts by providing an alternative that does not currently exist. The end result of giving entertainers mind damage healing would be to give those ofus who want it a new way to play their characters, but it wouldn't stop the more conservative group from playing the way they always have.
Tandava wrote:
Cantina's were designed to be a semi-forced socializing downtime, because many people seem to like to play an online game and never want to deal with people. The attitude has never made sense to me, but there you go, this is a way to sort of nudge them back into a social dynamic which is rather the point of a massive online roleplaying game. If it wasn't you buy a game that doesn't hook up online and play through a better developed plot and more stable game there.
This functionality and segmentof the game design would not be affected by this proposal in the least. Battle fatigue still exists, and would not be altered. Indeed, I've even suggested it might be increased in accumulation rate to force people into the cantinas in larger groups and more often.
Tandava wrote:
I would rather not be looked on as a healing bot or buffing bot to help someone kill one more animal or mauler (even though I do not like maulers). I would rather be looked at as a creative worthwhile ingame person who contributes to a community by running a business that people use for their own desires, relaxing, meeting place, entertainment. And I'd like to be respected for literally the hours and money and running and planning it takes to pull it off. As complicated and time consuming as any master created item all so others can have a good time or different experience.
And this... This is one I hear a lot, and it is a fallacy.
This isa matter of how you want to see your play, and in how you want others to see your play. The problem is that you can control only the former, and not the latter.
Many of the foolish who play this game see your profession as little more than a poorly designed way to leach off their hard earned credits. (I disagree with this, but I digress.) You can affect how you see your character and your characters actions, but you will never really affect how THEY see you. You can't even try, unless they're forced to be in your presence for long periods of time, even have a chance at changing this perspective.
I propose to put entertainers who want this exposure in their presence, both in the cantinas and in combat. How does that hurt the entertainers who like performing only in town? How does it affect anything you've done since you started?
You've claimed it's a problem.Now - show me how it would be, instead of relying on bare assertion.
I would go simpler. Give Rangers the ability to create a semi-permanent structure (like a hunting cabin or another large camp) that has a high rate of decay so it'll stick around for a game day or two. People can leave the structure without it becoming disbanded prematuraly. It has a higher chance of repelling hostile creatures, so people in it (entertainers mostly) will be safe while the he-men run off and do battle for a while.
In this structure, entertainers would heal mind damage as usual, but also heal a small amount of BF. Thus, giving people more time to be out in the wild but eventually they'd have to return to a town to really get the BF down. Semi-permanent structures would also have to have an in-between build timer so you couldn't chain a bunch together.
So now you have a reason to recruit an entertainer or two to go along with you on hunts or skirmishes, and the ranger now becomes more desireable to have around as well.
As far as in battle mind healing goes, I don't know. I would think headwounds would be rather tricky to take care of in the best of times.
For what it's worth, the devs now seem to be considering giving entertainers, medics, or squad leaders the ability to heal mind damage in battle. They've also tossed around a heal-over-time versus instant heals. The thread is at
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=502726#M502726.
If one or more professions is to have this ability, I hope entertainers are included in the mix. I do think it might make sense to give Squad Leaders one type of mind heal (say, an instant heal, like a sudden rallying cry) and entertainers another (say, a heal over time, like a more general morale boost). In my opinion medics already are crucial to a well-functioning group and have plenty to do in battle; I wouldn't confer this ability on them.
Entertainers, if this proposal interests you, you might want to check out that other thread.
2. While I agree with your thinking that this needs to be seperated from medics. I believe doctors shoudl be able to enhance mind stats. This would allow players to more effectively tank. The devs are discussing adding melee tanking bonuses, but all player's biggest weaknesses are in their mind pools. Why prohibit doctors from buffing these stats. These are not heals but rater buffs that raise the maximum.
I'm strongly opposed to giving Dr's the ability to buff mind stats. High end entertiners are already able to do this. Unfortunately, not for the duration of some of the Dr. Health and Action pool buffs. Also this needs to be seperated form the Dr. Profession for the obvious exploit of being able to buff your own mind stats and then beable to heal nonstop. I'm sure Dr's would love this though.
mind stuff needs to stay with the entertaining professions.