Entertainer Archive
Thread: Mind Damage, Entertainers in Battle a solution? Comments needed!
I posted a similar suggestion in the Galactic Civil War forum a couple of days ago, and I got a mixed response. Some people think it's good that some damage is unhealable in PvP. Others say that mind heals would dilutethe entertainer classes, converting them into just one more combat-support class instead of something more distinct.
I dunno, my suspicion is that many entertainers want to enjoy the combat-oriented content in the game -- the Theme Parks, quests, and PvP stuff that is primarily open to fighters. Moreover, I know lots of entertainers doing the same thing as me -- Master of an entertainment profession, and Master of a combat profession. In fact, as a Master Musician, I do get a modest +7 increase to ranged and melee defense, so adding a combat profession makes some sense. If many of us are going to engage in combat anyway, why not give us one more fun thing to do in combat? Wouldn't it add one more layer of strategy to combat?
As for conceptualizing mind heals, I'd think of them as morale boosters -- there's no need to require a musician to bring a piano into battle, a la EQ's bard. Yes, the Squad Leader does play some of that role already, but adding a musician mind heal would be a new type of benefit.
Finally, if the devs are worried about a radical transformation of PvP, why not limit the mind heal to Masters -- Master ID, Dancer, Musician, or Entertainer. That way the devs could phase it in gradually, see how it works.
In sum, Ilike the idea.I emphasize that I'm posting my own views here, not necessarily those of the Musician community. In fact, this issue was not really on our radar for our first top-five Correspondent's Report -- but I'm wondering whether it's on more people's radar now. I'm sure hearing lots more buzz about it asI play the game.
-NewJedi, Musician Correspondent, a/k/a Ricky Starwalker, Master Musician/Master Entertainer/Novice Carbineer, Chilastra
NewJedi wrote:
I posted a similar suggestion in the Galactic Civil War forum a couple of days ago, and I got a mixed response. Some people think it's good that some damage is unhealable in PvP. Others say that mind heals would dilutethe entertainer classes, converting them into just one more combat-support class instead of something more distinct.
The problem I see with unhealable damage is that it's clearly uber and overpowered. Why damage anything else - you'd just be wasting your effort when a doctor dropped a heal on it. Anyone who can't admit to that fact is lying to themselves, IMO. There should be... no.. there must be no unhealable damage type.
As for it "diluting the entertainers", I say pish and tosh. You already get a TEF if you heal the wrong person at the wrong time - so why pretend you're not just as involved in the GCW as everyone else?
NewJedi wrote:
I dunno, my suspicion is that many entertainers want to enjoy the combat-oriented content in the game -- the Theme Parks, quests, and PvP stuff that is primarily open to fighters. Moreover, I know lots of entertainers doing the same thing as me -- Master of an entertainment profession, and Master of a combat profession. In fact, as a Master Musician, I do get a modest +7 increase to ranged and melee defense, so adding a combat profession makes some sense. If many of us are going to engage in combat anyway, why not give us one more fun thing to do in combat? Wouldn't it add one more layer of strategy to combat?
I agree, frankly, as should be readily apparent frommy vociferous responses here, and elsewhere in these forums. I think Entertainers need to get away from the common conception of "cantina dancer" or "cantina musician" and out into therest of the world. I think it's fine and well that they can master other professions in order to do so, but I think there's a niche for them to fill with their original profession - mind damage healing.
NewJedi wrote:
As for conceptualizing mind heals, I'd think of them as morale boosters -- there's no need to require a musician to bring a piano into battle, a la EQ's bard. Yes, the Squad Leader does play some of that role already, but adding a musician mind heal would be a new type of benefit.
In sum, Ilike the idea.I emphasize that I'm posting my own views here, not necessarily those of the Musician community. In fact, this issue was not really on our radar for our first top-five Correspondent's Report -- but I'm wondering whether it's on more people's radar now. I'm sure hearing lots more buzz about it asI play the game.
Thanks for the input! I'm trying not to crosspost this too widely, but could you mention it to the community you represent? After all, it's their expanded abilities that I'm proposing to the devs...
As entertainer, I don't think we should be involved in combat in any way. Anyone who wants to fight can either take up a second profession or simply pick a second character on another server and make him uber-BH.
But the truth is that music and song have been an integral part of war since the dawn of time. Witness military parades, as an example.
And the truth is that in the last2 decades at least, music and song have not played a part in fighting. In war, behind the frontlines in Casinos, Hotels, Clubs ? Yes. Where the troops where in the field fighting ? Hardly.
I have a rifleman on another server. The response we got when we asked why the other two classes and especially pistoleer were way stronger than we are: "you hit mind, an unhealable stat. So you are stronger than anyone else". Uhm... fine, great response. Doesn't solve the problem at all. Just a reminder to you that NOT healing mind for anyone is a game design and balance decision. Not just between entertainers and medics but for all fighting folks.
Waho wrote:
I don't want them to change my profession to make it more combat oriented. I'm many agree and just as many disagree.
Instead, add a new elite profession ABOVE master entertainer (heh, you could take the mando and give it to master musicians with this kind of perk for master entertainer). Above Master Entertainer would be the bard profession (with a much better name of course). And they know all their Entertainer songs and dances, but the new stuff they learn is the buffs and maybe some mez type songs that charm animals...or whatever.
Point being, make it a new profession, don't change the whole concept of the entertainer.
It wouldn't really change the original concept of the class. It would be a change to your concept of the class, though. Entertainers have been healing mind wounds and creating mind buffs all along - all this would be doing is giving you a way to heal mind damage, something that's a clear oversight in its omission.
I don't see that creating a new class just for this is a good solution. What about all the people who already learned Master Musician or Master Dancer, and went on to get some combat skills? Should they now be forced to surrender their titles in order to be able to do this?
I don't want 'bards' ala EQ, with mez songs and so forth. I'm not trying to create a whole new skill tree, and I don't think that doing so is the best move. I think it'd make many people unhappy, and it wouldn't really accomplish much.
Instead, I'm trying to create an ability that can be seamlessly integrated with the existing Entertainer classes. If the skill proposedis added to Musician and Dancer, there's no reason you'd have to use it, but the option would be there for those who want it. It'd be a lot like my smuggler example. Some of them don't really like making spice. Some of them just like the pistol skills. Others like to slice weapons and armor., but don't care about the rest.
...but all of these are smugglers, and all of them are smuggler abilities.
This proposed change would be the same. Those who want it, have it and will use it. Those who don't want it need not ever use it. Moreover, it wouldn't hurt them. I don't even see a reason to change the way Entertainers gain experience currently. A new addition to xp gaining methodsmight be needed, for those practicing this "morale boost" in combat, but it would take nothing away from any entertainer currently in existence.Itcertainly wouldn't changeyourpurpose increating mind buffs or healing mind woundsand battle fatigue.
Instead, it creates options, instead of taking them away. It's an anti-nerf for Entertainers, and opens whole new modes of play for all entertainer players. It's a good thing, whatI'm proposing.
nvoigt wrote:
As entertainer, I don't think we should be involved in combat in any way. Anyone who wants to fight can either take up a second profession or simply pick a second character on another server and make him uber-BH.
I have a rifleman on another server. The response we got when we asked why the other two classes and especially pistoleer were way stronger than we are: "you hit mind, an unhealable stat. So you are stronger than anyone else". Uhm... fine, great response. Doesn't solve the problem at all. Just a reminder to you that NOT healing mind for anyone is a game design and balance decision. Not just between entertainers and medics but for all fighting folks.
Entertainers already are involved in combat. You heal battle fatigue. You heal mind wounds. You create mind buffs to counteract mind hits from Eye Shot and riflemen Head Shots. You also get TEF for healing the wrong folks in a cantina, I believe. The only exception is that you don't have any ability outside of a cantina.
(Sunlight = Entertainer Kryptonite? Sorry - random thought.)
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you need to read the Dev Tracker for some information on mind damage. I'll provide you with the needed link, and you'll need to go down a couple of messages.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=476555
Unhealable mind damage is NOT working as intended - per Holo. A system will eventually be created to change this, the only question is what form it will take when it's complete.They won't be giving it to medics, due to the potential for exploit. I think entertainers form the most obvious group to be responsible for this, as they already heal mind wounds and create mind buffs. The mind is their province - their specialty, if you will.
I understand that Riflemen will be impacted by this, just as the BH skill Eye Shot will be. However, I think that when mind healing goes in, you will find that riflemen and Eye Shot are then re-balanced accordingly. You've been nerfed already because your damage is unhealable....but it won't be like that forever.
I don't want to see folks playing instruments in combat. That's not the intent. I don't want you to "twist songs" like bards did in EQ. What I would like to see is a way for entertainers to offset mind damage during a battle. The question is what you want to see from this system when it's done, or what system you'd like to see instead, because there will be a way to heal mind damage, eventually.
What form should it take?
Waho wrote: The problem I have with this is that it would increase the population of AFK performers in cantinas. For two reasons.
Ouch. This would be a bad thing to encourage. For the record, I don't like AFK entertainers. I do not wish to encourage them.
I don't think this necessarily follows, though.
Waho scribbled: Novice Entertainers will not be very good at healing mind damage, so anyone who takes up the profession just for the damage healing (maybe a medic/entertainer, or a combat profession/entertainer) will need to do some grinding before they are good at it. If they aren't the type of player who wants to perform for long periods in the cantina I do forsee many of them AFK macroing until they are good mind healers.
Everyone has to start somewhere, it's true. However, going out with a group and earning entertainer xp for boosting morale in a combat group would seem a good way to earn the experience to become a better mind healer!
Doubly so,if they don't want to heal folks in a cantina. Not everyone "grinds", and SWG is clearly not a grinder's game. Those who grind will hit the top faster... and then have nowhere to go. You can already heal mind wounds in a campsite, so how is healing mind damage away from the cantinas and campsites a bad thing?
Doctors do this type of healing with stims already.Adding mind damage healing simply gives an entertainer a similarway to earn their experience. One, I add, which doesn't require or encourage the drain from the community that is AFK Entertaining, and is (in fact) diametrically opposed to it! It would be a community encouraging device, not something to destroy it.
I understand your fear, but there are many who /won't/ go out to heal people, because they DON'T want to be involved in combat. AFK entertaining is kind of a seperate issue, and should be handled as such. I do want to see something that stops this, just as they did for artisans. (Suggestions for that: End all performance commands when an AFK tag is on longer than 10 minutes. End them when there's been no UI activity for more than 10 minutes, too.)
Waho worried: Also, a lot of musicians who are not AFK will get offers to go out and help with mind heals. Some will do just for some company, because their band mates are mostly AFK. And yes, some will do it because they have fun and enjoy it. BUT it takes more of the non-AFK performers out of the cantina.
AFK Entertaining is done because many people find skilling up entertainers boring. Allowing them to get out of the cantina and exposed to new places once in a while seems a good way to /counter/ AFK entertaining, not a further contribution to it.
The real problem is that mind healing has to go somewhere. Unhealable mind damage is destroying PvP in many minds - just ask the doctors in the thread I linked to earlier. They don't like watching people die due to a pool they cannot affect. That was the very basis of their claim on your territory as entertainers.
But if we're going to let "them" heal mind damage, why not let "them" heal mind wounds as well? There are action wound kits, after all - so why not mind wound kits? Heck, why not get rid of battle fatigue too? That way, entertainers could simply dance and play forever, and needn't worry about healing anyone!
This, of course, is a straw man argument, and not worthy of consideration... except that it points out the first and most important reason why doctors and medics should not and must not be granted any means to heal the mind pool. It gives them a weakness - something which they CANNOT do with one profession alone. Interdependence is very clearly the developer'snumber onegoal. (Right after making money, of course.)
This can be seen in their nerfs, which are designed to force people to depend on groupmates in combat. But there's another reason not to allow doctors to heal mind damage...
Waho wondered:
Why not let Docs heal mind damage (not wounds) since they're already out there for the purpose of healing?
Because a medic healing the mind pool can heal the pool they use for healing. Doctors healing their own healing pool bypasses an essential limitation to their healing ability - their mind pool not being bottomless. It's a game breaking exploitive loop, and even limiting it once it's in place would just be more headaches.
The example by analogy I gave elsewhere:An EQ cleric who can self-buff their mana regeneration.
It's broken, because it allows them to heal more often, and without limitation - and does not require another class in order to bypass the limitations. In EQ, the mana buffing is given to other classes, who then support the clerics. In SWG, this would be analogous to giving entertainers the ability to heal the mind pool, in order to support doctors and medics.
More importantly, you still haven't given me a good answer as to how this proposal really hurts exisitng entertainers. Increasing AFK entertainers is a possibility, but it's one existing problem that everyone is already aware of, and which needs to be addressed seperately from the issue of unhealable mind damage.
This system might contribute to that, but the answer isn't to get rid of this system, it's to get rid of AFK entertainers. To get rid of this is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and doesn't correct the existing problem. This proposal certainly isn't the end-all-be-all answer for AFK grinding entertainers, but I think it might help to get some of you guys out into the sunlight once in a while.
Giving you something to contribute to a combat group in action would do just that.In addition, it might not hurt to have combat classes made more aware of the OTHER ways you can help them out - such as mind buffs.
Er yeah... you're right, it would be silly if a doc could heal his mind...like if playing music healed your action damage. Got that.
I don't know...I honestly do worry about drastic changes that alter the way my class is played. It's selfish, but what other motivation do I need? The thing is, a lot of entertainers really enjoy the class, and if it were changed so much that the expectations other players have of entertainers changes then that might be a bad thing. You could say the AFK macroers already don't enjoy the class, and I'd probably agree in most circumstances, but they chose the profession knowing that they would be performing in cantinas (public or player owned). I didn't consider earlier that your suggestion might actually take some of these AFK players and make them want to actually play the game....but sometimes the people who are AFK are not capable of playing (asleep/at work...). Giving more players motivation to become a class which can be progressed while you sleep just seems like it would end up causing more AFK people to be performing in the cantina. /shrug The AFK is a problem already, so perhaps it will have a "nerf" and most of my concerns about thiswould begone.
I also worry about upsetting people who want me to go help them by healing their minds in battle and not understanding when I tell them no...people in this game can get pretty rude if you don't do exactly what they want...I'm sure you've noticed.
I agree though, mind should be healable and not by doctors. So I do concede that entertainers would be the next most logical profession. I'm not at all against adding a new profession that can heal mind wounds as well as maybe some other abilities...marching while playing, calming aggroes with music or something.... I don't understand why it would be better for the current professions to have the ability rather than a new profession...of course it would be much easier to implement....
First, allow me to thank you for the mature and intelligent fashion in which you've continued to discuss the subject with me. It's been very nice to have folks asking the questions they have in the fashion they have - and I do appreciate it greatly. I want to make that plain to all.
Thank you.
Now, down to business. /emote cracks his knuckles.
Waho wrote:
I don't know...I honestly do worry about drastic changes that alter the way my class is played.
Believe it or not, so do I. Balancing this new ability is very important so as not to simply make entertainers the new "flavor of the month" class. At the same time, I don't see that altering your abilities by adding to them changes the way you play the class. It gives you extra options and a chance at a new style of play, but it's really your personal choice in how, or even IF you do so. As long as the addition isn't exploitable, or abused, I really don't care who gets it. We can give it to pikemen, if you prefer... but I think we'd both agree that it'd be a bit silly, and rightly belongs with the Entertainer - who already buffs the mind and heals mind wounds.
Waho wrote: I didn't consider earlier that your suggestion might actually take some of these AFK players and make them want to actually play the game....but sometimes the people who are AFK are not capable of playing (asleep/at work...).
See, these are two seperate cases. The people who do it because the way it's implemented is shoddy or boring, and those who do it because it's exploitable. The trick is giving the first group a way to do it that they'll enjoy to get them active, and then kicking the holy crap out of...er... nerfing the ability of the second group to macro to master.
And it very well might. I'm not a student of human behavior, and I'm not psychic, so I can't say for sure. I'm not sure anyone else can either.But if it encourages a problem that already exists, it's not the source of the problem, and so the problem needs to be rooted out as a seperate issue. Kill the AFK entertaining, yes... but don't confuse this with the source of an existing problem.
Waho wrote: Giving more players motivation to become a class which can be progressed while you sleep just seems like it would end up causing more AFK people to be performing in the cantina.
Waho wrote: I also worry about upsetting people who want me to go help them by healing their minds in battle and not understanding when I tell them no...people in this game can get pretty rude if you don't do exactly what they want...I'm sure you've noticed.
I have. I've had people spit on me as an entertainer. I've been mocked. I've been made fun of. I've seen people laugh when I asked for tips. I've even quit playing, just to go to a campsite in the woods and heal my mind wounds and not play for the ones doing it.
Now, doesn't that just warm you to your toes?
/denyservice is a good idea, but it's backwards. I should have to approve the people I'm healing, not the other way around, and I should be able to /denyservice if I find out they're just chumps. What's really sad is that Entertainer is only a sideline for me. It's not my main profession. I'm a fighter - I like combat. But I also like to play a tune or two to pass the time in camps, and I like being self-sufficient enough to heal my own fatigue and wounds. (I'm a medic too. Eventually, I won't be either - I'm a skill point crunch victim in the making. But I'll be keeping Entertainer longer than Medic...)
I feel the pain of entertainers for tips, even though it's not my specialty. I want to give entertainers something they can use for the good of allcombat groups, something which will help them get the respect they rightly deserve, and somthing which gets them out of the cantinas and involved with the larger world from time to time- and I think thismay beit.
Counterbalance it, if we must- just increase the rate of battle fatigue gain. Now you drive folks to the cantinas faster (since battle fatigue is healabl only in a cantina) but Entertainers also get to leave to perform "on the road"for a combat group if they wish. People still congregate in the cantinas, and entertainers are guaranteed an audience there through battle fatigue alone.
Would that work?
Why shouldn't entertainers want to tell stories of GCW battles they've seen or hunting they've participated in?
One part embedded reporter, and one part storyteller... and this can be encouraged by giving them a way to tag along, and a reason to do so. I think this system can be made to accomplish both.
Waho wrote: I don't understand why it would be better for the current professions to have the ability rather than a new profession...of course it would be much easier to implement....
That's one reason. Speaking as someone familiar with programming and software development, sometimes the easy implementation really is best, even if it's a compromise to do so.
Another is that creating the "Calming" and "Mesmerizing"and "Marching" or "Travel" tunes... well... that's exactly what Holo and the devs don't want. It's an EQ-type generic-fantasy "bard", and it's why I can't support creating a new class. How do you fill eighteen boxes of combat-music skills, but do it without duplicating the EQ bard, only in space this time?
Sure, for some of it you could grant them new dances, tunes, instruments and flourishes... but that just spreads out the entertainer class even further, and it doesn't really even give you enough to fill the hypothetical "new" class. What's left? Passive bonuses granted to the group while playing? I'd rather see most of those on the Squad Leader... with the exception of mind healing, which is very clearly the forte of the Entertainer.
I don't want to see entertainers diluted further like creating a new class would. That's why I want this ability granted to the existing class, rather than trying to create a new niche to fill. We've got enough to balance already - without adding more professions to the mix.
You definately make a convincing argument for this, and while I don't see the need to give entertainers an ability to get them out of the cantina (because they can just pick up marksman and get pistoleer or something) but the more I actually consider going into battle with the intention of being a mind healer the more I liken to the idea. Keep in mind that I would basically be a pistoleer who is healing mind, but of course that ability comes from the weeks I've spent entertaining.
I think I'm indifferent now. You have changed my mind from being against this though.
)
Waho wrote:
You definately make a convincing argument for this {...}
Thanks. It's good to know all those years arguing with my parents, teachers, bosses, friends, strangers and myself have finally paid off. 
Waho wrote:
{...} while I don't see the need to give entertainers an ability to get them out of the cantina (because they can just pick up marksman and get pistoleer or something) but the more I actually consider going into battle with the intention of being a mind healer the more I liken to the idea.
That's kinda the idea I'm shooting for, yes. Entertainers to become the mind docs, so to speak. I think giving them the ability to heal mind wounds gives them incentive to accompany combat groups, and gets them a chance to share in what marksmen and brawlers have had all along - monkey making opportunities.
Waho wrote:
Keep in mind that I would basically be a pistoleer who is healing mind, but of course that ability comes from the weeks I've spent entertaining.
Yep! You already earned this ability. All I'm doing is proposing that you be given it, and that others benefit on their trip to masteryif they'regoing to use it. As for your skills at using a pistol, I don't begrudge you those at all - a mind healer who couldn't fight in self-defense would be pretty worthless in a combat group, wouldn't they?
Waho wrote:
I think I'm indifferent now. You have changed my mind from being against this though.
Keep firing! Don't let them get away! 
Waho wrote:
yes and I do agree a 'bard' profession is not Star Wars at all. (but a marching band would rule!
It would be nice for musicians to be able to supply music to a group while they're out moving to an objective. The game is kinda... well... quiet. (And why not battle music too? Some variety would be nice...) For now, though, I want to see some balance in mind damage. I'll balance everything else on my lunchbreak tomorrow.
I think that for it to make some sense, it would have to require a Musician. You just can't watch someone dance and be effective in combat. I could see an elite Dancer distracting the enemy, but it would take a set of drums to inspire combatants (and strike fear into the hearts of the enemies) on the field.
I think it would have to be limited to drums actually, just as it has mostly been limited to drums in wars on earth. Nobody has a set of head phones and listens to Johnny's march. And even the scotts accompanied their bagpipes with drums.
Drums (rythyms) have the effect of focusing groups of people, and synching their body rythms up through entrainment. Come to think of it, this type of ability would probably be most suited for an elite class of 'Battle Drummer'. Let me tell you, I'd *pay* someone to group with me if it would result in some war drumming to replace the generic battle music the game gives you, even if it had no effect on my group or my enemy =)
Since Holo mentions that they're not looking at Entertainers being Bards, perhaps this alternate Entertainment-based Elite Battle Drummer class would be the way to go. Admittedly, the role is filled by a Squad Leader, but this would be the Entertainment Based version rather than the Combat based.
