Entertainer Archive
Thread: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING ON THE PROPOSED CHANGES TO MACROS
So what exactly is wrong with AFKplay? Are you saying you do not want buff bots? That you dislike getting a mind buff from an entertainer? Becaus thats exactly whats being hurt here.
Erawia_D wrote:
loonatik wrote:
You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software. Once that starts rolling it all goes down hill. They had a good idea by allowing it in the game. It satisifed most people so they didnt have to download outside stuff. I also think you are naieve to think other mmogs dont have their fair share of unattended macroing. I have played almost every single one, and its rampit in just about all of them.
Your anaology is a little flawed. People unattended macroing are not stealing anything. Anyone can download a in game macro and use it. Its open to everyone. You put up a policy like this and people will do it anyway but do it in 3rd party programs. Then you have a bigger issue because its really unfair to the people who dont know how to use them.
I speak from experience. I have seen it happen in a lot of mmogs. SWG was one ofthe first to openly welcome macroing in the game. I was very impressed. Doing this now is taking a huge step backwards.
There is a difference between openly welcoming macroing and openly welcoming AFKplay, which is what we currently have. By your posting you are advocating the continued acceptance of AFKPlay ("People unattended macroing are not stealing anything").
I also protestyour statement of'not stealing anything'.
1.
Xyrdre wrote:
loonatik wrote:
When you are done with your insane rant realize that the macroing is only envolved to get you to master. At which point people begin to really play the game.
Awww... something insane about the suggestion of having a game that people don't play, but still pay for? Hmmm... I can see that. AFK "play"...
As for macroing to master and then playing the game, please tell that to the buffbots and the combat masters I see AFK loot camping. It may stop in crafter land at master, but that's just not the end of the story.
Message Edited by loonatik on 08-10-2004 01:05 PM
nvoigt wrote:
Totally removing the ability to do it in game will send people to 3rd party programs and I guarantee you, the types of macros you can do in those are MUCH MUCH worse than the ones you can do in game.
For one, the macro abilities aren't revoked, just limited. And for an entertainer, no use of a third party program can create a bot that would be worse than the current situation.
Go play Ultima Online and look at what 3rd party programs have done to that game.
If you truly want to remove unattend macroing, remove the need for people to do it.
A nice theory, but it simply doesn't work. There is no need to cheat in any game. Yet, people do.
If you dont need to macro to do something, why would you? If anything, it wouldnt be as prevelant.
I would also like to say that you are a Correspondent. Your job is to listen to your CUSTOMERS and relay that information to the right people. Arguing with your CUSTOMERS is not very professional.
As a correspondent, his job is to collect information from us and relay it to the devs. He did so just fine. Unattended gameplay was the top concern of entertainers. He's not arguing with his customers, he's arguing with you. Where have you been for the past year ? If you don't voice your oppinion on an issue, you cannot come in later and criticise adecision you avoided.
BTW: As a part of Tiaga's community, I like him to take apart my ideas. I don't want him to take any bull to the devs. We can argue about it. If it still stands afterwe have heard numerous contra points, then it can be taken to the devs if enough people agree. That's the point of filtering.
The point is he should not be arguing. I voiced my opinon to him and rather than sharing it with a dev, he decided to debate it with me. Not something he should be doing as a correspondent.
I've started just about every profession but have made it further in music and artisan that anything else so far. I didn't try out any macros until grinding my 4th box in artisan, and did the entire survey line before I knew about macros. It IS quite possible to do it the hard way. As someone who mastered SEVERAL crafting professions in EQ, grinding the hard way is something I’m familiar with, and something I’m more than willing to do IF I have to, I’d just prefer not to. It's pretty much a part of the SOE crafting experience. However, I don't think I’ll have to worry about it as long as the /ui action blah command is still available. I don't think the crafting profession will be hurt at all, or really even notice this change except in having to click *one* extra button after 10-15 crafting sessions. If we DO lose the /ui action though, then it'll hurt badly. But as I said, I've done it the hard way before so I'm willing to do it again.
As far as music goes, I’ve messed with a repeating macro, but find it to be generally boring. I've found loading an alias.txt file and kicking things off manually gives me much greater control over what I want to play when I want to play it. Also, I don't think people realize how much junk you can put into your alias file. If you combine that with the macro's, you can come up with some loooooong performances. You just have to get the pauses right. Too much for one file? Well, make multiple files. Load the one you want when you want it. Even the "Rainbow Trout" idea I read about on here should still work for a while if we don't loose the /ui command(AMAZING Idea, wish I could remember who said it, it's great! That person should have their FS slot unlocked just for being original, if they haven’t already). From my stint in the cantina as a novice performer, I can say I'm looking forward to getting rid of all the bots. That being said, it's my stay in the cantina that got me STARTED using the looping macros. I got tired of being the only person in a FULL GROUP that was reliably manning the keyboard. Even the leader was on another account doing stuff, but she at least was checking in now and again.
So far I’m not master of *anything*, but that hasn't stopped me from making a profit in the start of the artisan line. How do I do this? I just go to the bazaar (Couldn’t’ have a vendor till Sunday night, too low) and see what’s available and what’s not. My first major profit for a low-level character was from selling Fishing Poles of all things! I just looked on the Bazaar, saw that there was only one 94% fishing pole on sale in the entire *galaxy*, made a few 40-60% poles and sold them all at half that price. It was a wonderful thing. More recently (Sunday night actually), I put several travel packs on the bazaar. I'm NOT a master tailor, heck, I’m not even a *novice* tailor, but EVERY pack I put up for sale was gone when I logged in this morning. Note that none of those packs were macrud, ALL of them had a personal crafting touch. I had fun, I made money. It's not that hard to do if you spend the time to look for ways to do it. That’s the hardest part actually, expending the time and effort to figure out what to do and hoping someone else doesn't beat you to it.
In the end analysis, If we don't loose the /ui blah command, and we don't loose the /load alias.txt command, then I don't think either profession will be hurt that badly. Sure, there will be some adjustment pains but it'll work out over the course of the next month. If we DO loose those however, crafters trying to level will be hurting badly (and literally) but can still make it there eventually, it'll just take longer. Master crafters won't be affected nearly as much, so in game economy won't be hurt that bad. Short term inflation WILL happen, but it'll come back down as they realize there actually are people out there willing to grind the hard way to get what they want. Combat? Heh, I don't know enough about it to even speculate.
Do I think this will kill off the buff bots? No, absolutely not. Don't even kid yourselves. But I do think it will slow them down a bit, and keep them out of the hands of the turely clueless. All in all I think that's a Good Thing. Just please, try to do it without killing off the /load alias.txt and /ui action blah commands. Loosing those would hurt.
Well, that's about all I have to say on the matter. Thanks for you time if you actualy read through all that.
Z
TH responds: There is indeed a mechanism to remove players that are not at the keyboards for a certain amount of time the issue is the use of recursive macros. A recursive macro is a macro that executes the set of player commands and then starts over again in a never ending loop. Some players have used this to play “AFK” or “Away From Keyboard”. This dramatically affects players who are present at all times and want to enjoy their gameplay. The change is being made primarily to improve the game world and the presence of players at all time. It is a huge request from many many players. The dev team agrees with them, so we are removing recursive macros and making some adjustments to some of the professions so that the removal isn’t too difficult of a transition for them.
loonatik wrote:
So did you raise entertainer all the way to master through sitting there clicking each flourish?
Message Edited by loonatik on 08-10-200401:05 PM
1) I used my time leveling wisely. I took the time while levelingto study the professions, and learn as much as I could about how to do them very, very well. In the process, I learned how to control dance drift, learned specific timings on flourishing, memorized what every flourish in every dance does and how it moves, and learned how to construct song structures while working with limited music flourishes. I spent that time talking with the cantina patrons who wished to talk, and learned still more about what they did,what was going on in my galaxy, who the good smiths were, which smugglers could or could not be trusted with slicing, etc. I spent that time working with other entertainers, comparing notes and learning and teachingstill more. And now, as a fairly long-time Master, I find that I'm still learning more all the time.
2) Any activity, if performed repeatedly and endlessly, will become boring. This is a simple fact. The key is to not do something endlessly and repeatedly. The cure for 'grinding' in SWG, withits built-in flexibility of paths to choose for gameplay, is not to automate the 'grind' to avoid gameplay; itis simply not to grind. There is a choice. My personal long-time mantra is and was, "If it starts to feel like grinding, and isn't fun right now, I'm doing something wrong. Time to go do something else for awhile."
While I was originally leveling Dance, I also took up Novice Marksman and Novice Scout. I would go out and hunt, fish, or explore as a means of taking a break from the hectic cantina nights when those things started to get repetitious and/or boring. I went and did something else for awhile that was interesting. A simple choice, and one that any player, in any profession, has ample skill points to accomplish. This game does in fact have an awful lot to do, but if one looks only at grinding to get a profession mastery, all too oftenthey miss out on everything else going onaround them. The player's choice of holding to asingular drive on only one thing creates the tedium, and one can easily miss the forest for fixedly staring atonetree.
Tiaga wrote:
loonatik wrote:
LOL, bold statement, who are you to say im not apart of the entertainer community? I think you need to check yourself.
I am to say you are not a part. This thread is your only posts in the entertainer forum ever. You've been to many profession forums, but never the entertainer forum. You're not even really talking about entertainers, you're focusing more on crafting. Even if you play an entertainer, you are not a member of this entertainer community until you have shown yourself to be one.
I have been playing this game since BEFORE it came out, I have actively participated on these forums on all 3 of my accounts. You are in no position to say who is a part of any community. It is not defined by you. It is rude, and not your place to say. Is this really how a correspondent should act?
"would you rather just have a button anyone can click to get master architect or armorsmith instantly, or would you rather there be a viable market for lower level architects and armorsmiths, so that they can build up a reputation by selling decently made goods while they gain experience?"
I would love to see a market for lower level crafters. But thats not how the game is and I dont see it happening any time soon. There needs to be some work to getting to master for sure. Otherwise you would just jump between professions when you needed it.. Run off a bunch of harvesters and switch.... But it should not be too difficult to do. The way they have it now is fine. It takes a few weeks. All the macroing is allowing is for you to not have to sit there and make tool after tool after tool.
It hardly takes a few weeks. With enough money you can master elite crafting in a weekend or less. And that's for one of the slower crafting professions like chef or tailor.
Depending on how much you play it could take a week or two. Less is actually a good thing. But im confused because you are all about thinking it should take long periods of time and there should be a market along the way. Maybe you are just stating how it is, instead of how you want it to be.
If you want more players to support your ideas, working with them instead of against them is a better plan. Instead of spending all this energy fighting a change the devs have stated has already been decided on, why not spend that energy trying to come up with ways to improve the game for everyone? Making a larger market for low level crafting items is a good example of something that makes the game better for everyone. Leaving in unattended gameplay is not.
Im not here to build an army of supporters. Im here to voice my opinon to my representive so that my voice can be heard by the developers. I have every right to disagree with whats going on. So why dont you start being a representitive and understand everyone has different views. All you are doing here is pushing your view onto me. Which goes back to my previous statement; Is this how a correspondent should act?
I know it wasn't me you asked, but yes, I did entertain through hitting flourishes. For someone that types decently, hitting 6 extra keys every minute isn't that hard. Even for someone that just does hunt and peck typing, putting the flourishes on the F-keys makes them quicker and easier to find than any letter. While I have the occasional macrod routine, it is for performances, not for gaining xp. When not doing a performance, and even part of doing performances, I am hitting every single flourish. I did this to master entertainer 3 times, master dancer once, and master musician nearly twice now. The second time going up technique first (Primarily for the effects and instruments, but partly so I could provide buffs that are apparently so hard to find) which means more flourishes. It's really not that bad, certainly not the "millions of flourishes" people like to claim. You only need a little over a million xp. Most of that is after novice dancer or musician. If you go for max xp playing solo that means a flourish every 10 seconds, or two for musician. If you only ever perform novice musician or dancer level, that is 20xp per flourish. In other words you have to hit a button a little over 50,000 times. Go up knowledge first and perform the top level you have and it's 40xp, so cut it down to 30,000 times. Join a decent group and your xp is double, now you're hitting a button 15,000 times. That's still a conservative estimate. If you only do flourishes every 20 seconds and take the small hit in xp, you cut it down to 8,000 times. Still seem like a lot of button presses? Lets put that in perspective.. You need, what, 3 million combat specific xp to master elite combat? Assuming you can find stuff that gives 3k each kill, that's 1,000 things you have to kill, and you probably aren't just hitting one button for it and taking one down every 10 seconds. Crafting? Well over that many items to make. Hell, just typing this post I've hit probably a quarter the amount of button presses required to master dancer.
If your numbers are any where accurate, 8,000x20 = 44 hours. Lets say you can play 3 hours a day, every single day. Thats 14 days (2 weeks). Now some of us can play more than 3 hoursa day, some of us less. If you do this by unattended macroing, you can cut that time intoa few days. All of this is really not apart of the point though.
I will state it one more time since you seem to keepignoring it. The "laws" are already there to prevent unattended macroing. Why inconvenience others by removing the ability to loop macros? Its not going to prevent unattended macroing. People will just use 3rd party programs, or put a book on the space bar. In the end they will have to resort to doing what they can already do right now. Finding the people doing it, and ban them. You could easily take out half the population by going right outside any major city, hitting the cantinas, and star ports.
Message Edited by Tiaga on 08-10-2004 12:31 PM
Message Edited by loonatik on 08-10-2004 07:25 PM
loonatik wrote:
loonatik wrote:Im not here to build an army of supporters. Im here to voice my opinon to my representive so that my voice can be heard by the developers. I have every right to disagree with whats going on. So why dont you start being a representitive and understand everyone has different views. All you are doing here is pushing your view onto me. Which goes back to my previous statement; Is this how a correspondent should act?
You're right, you do, and this is not the place for feedback against removing recursive macros. The place for feedback on the proposed change to macros is on TH's thread.
Please also read TH's other comments in other threads that indicate how they may actually go about implementing it. It seems that some of TH's possible solutions render your entire anti-change argument (if thats what it was) null and void.
And when you can submit a photograph of an SoE employee holding a baseball bat to your head, then I'll accept that you were "forced" into using 3rd party macros. Attach the photo to your unicorn and send it to me.
And if you're such an active member of the community, where were you last time I took a poll of what issues people thought were important?
Tiaga wrote:
It is not your place to tell me how I should and shouldn't act. I am not your personal representative, I am the communities representative. I am also a player. Being a correspondent doesn't mean I don't have opinions, and can't have discussions or debates. And I know I've never seen you post in the entertainer, musician or dancer forum before this thread, so how can I take you but as someone who feels threatened by the proposed changes and decided to come trolling here? If you have other accounts active in the entertainer community here, why don't you post with them instead?
And if you're such an active member of the community, where were you last time I took a poll of what issues people thought were important?
So now you call me a troll anda lair.... Pretty f-in hilarous if you ask me. SOE did a piss poor job picking you as a representitive. I fully plan to make them aware of this fact.
I am not your personal representative, I am the communities representative.
Exactly, and I am here voicing my opinon in this community. It is FAR from your place to define who is apart of this community and who is not.
loonatik wrote:LOL, bold statement, who are you to say im not apart of the entertainer community? I think you need to check yourself.
I am to say you are not a part. This thread is your only posts in the entertainer forum ever. You've been to many profession forums, but never the entertainer forum. You're not even really talking about entertainers, you're focusing more on crafting. Even if you play an entertainer, you are not a member of this entertainer community until you have shown yourself to be one.
"would you rather just have a button anyone can click to get master architect or armorsmith instantly, or would you rather there be a viable market for lower level architects and armorsmiths, so that they can build up a reputation by selling decently made goods while they gain experience?"I would love to see a market for lower level crafters. But thats not how the game is and I dont see it happening any time soon. There needs to be some work to getting to master for sure. Otherwise you would just jump between professions when you needed it.. Run off a bunch of harvesters and switch.... But it should not be too difficult to do. The way they have it now is fine. It takes a few weeks. All the macroing is allowing is for you to not have to sit there and make tool after tool after tool.
It hardly takes a few weeks. With enough money you can master elite crafting in a weekend or less. And that's for one of the slower crafting professions like chef or tailor.
If you want more players to support your ideas, working with them instead of against them is a better plan. Instead of spending all this energy fighting a change the devs have stated has already been decided on, why not spend that energy trying to come up with ways to improve the game for everyone? Making a larger market for low level crafting items is a good example of something that makes the game better for everyone. Leaving in unattended gameplay is not.
I know it wasn't me you asked, but yes, I did entertain through hitting flourishes. For someone that types decently, hitting 6 extra keys every minute isn't that hard. Even for someone that just does hunt and peck typing, putting the flourishes on the F-keys makes them quicker and easier to find than any letter. While I have the occasional macrod routine, it is for performances, not for gaining xp. When not doing a performance, and even part of doing performances, I am hitting every single flourish. I did this to master entertainer 3 times, master dancer once, and master musician nearly twice now. The second time going up technique first (Primarily for the effects and instruments, but partly so I could provide buffs that are apparently so hard to find) which means more flourishes. It's really not that bad, certainly not the "millions of flourishes" people like to claim. You only need a little over a million xp. Most of that is after novice dancer or musician. If you go for max xp playing solo that means a flourish every 10 seconds, or two for musician. If you only ever perform novice musician or dancer level, that is 20xp per flourish. In other words you have to hit a button a little over 50,000 times. Go up knowledge first and perform the top level you have and it's 40xp, so cut it down to 30,000 times. Join a decent group and your xp is double, now you're hitting a button 15,000 times. That's still a conservative estimate. If you only do flourishes every 20 seconds and take the small hit in xp, you cut it down to 8,000 times. Still seem like a lot of button presses? Lets put that in perspective.. You need, what, 3 million combat specific xp to master elite combat? Assuming you can find stuff that gives 3k each kill, that's 1,000 things you have to kill, and you probably aren't just hitting one button for it and taking one down every 10 seconds. Crafting? Well over that many items to make. Hell, just typing this post I've hit probably a quarter the amount of button presses required to master dancer.
Message Edited by Tiaga on 08-10-2004 12:31 PM