Entertainer Archive
Thread: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING ON THE PROPOSED CHANGES TO MACROS
loonatik wrote:You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software.
Oh crap. I totally didn't have the foresight on this change before I started rejoicing. Crap! I'm going to be forced to use outside software! I don't even want to!
I'm so screwed. Maybe I can sue. I don't remember seeing in the EULA where I agreed to let SOE force me to use outside software.
Punks.
Tiaga wrote:
loonatik wrote:
Tiaga wrote:
That doesn't mean they should stop trying. It's not something you can ever 100% succeed at, as people by nature want something for nothing. But those games have much less problem with unattended play than SWG does.
Just because it's impossible is not a good reason to stop trying. By that logic you should leave your front door open and your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, since you can't stop someone who wants to get in or steal your car.
You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software. Once that starts rolling it all goes down hill. They had a good idea by allowing it in the game. It satisifed most people so they didnt have to download outside stuff. I also think you are naieve to think other mmogs dont have their fair share of unattended macroing. I have played almost every single one, and its rampit in just about all of them.
Your anaology is a little flawed. People unattended macroing are not stealing anything. Anyone can download a in game macro and use it. Its open to everyone. You put up a policy like this and people will do it anyway but do it in 3rd party programs. Then you have a bigger issue because its really unfair to the people who dont know how to use them.
I speak from experience. I have seen it happen in a lot of mmogs. SWG was one of the first to openly welcome macroing in the game. I was very impressed. Doing this now is taking a huge step backwards.
Am I the one missing the point? I thought the point of a game was to play.
Why can AFK play be likened to stealing? Because you are getting something (xp, credits, loot, whatever) for nothing (No effort involved, and no, downloading a macro does not count as effort any more than picking up a brick to hurl through a window does.) But that is not the analogy I was drawing. That lock on your front door, how effective do you think that is? Do you know that there are even automated lockpicks these days? All you do is jam it in, give it a twist and hit a button. (Oversimplified a little, but the point stands.) Even with a secure lock, a good old fashioned brick through your window gets right past it. Despite knowing that locks are ineffective, I still use mine. It keeps honest people honest.
Yes, unattended play is all over the place. So is burglary. That's what laws are for, so when someone is caught doing it, they can be dealt with. In the case of MMORPGs, the laws are the EULA (Go read it... It's in there... Pay close attention to paragraph 7) and the way it is dealt with is suspension of the account.
One of SWG's biggest downfalls is it's alleged lack of content. I put forward that it has content, players have just figured out ways to macro around it. Sure, you could still go through it, but it does cheapen the accomplishment a little knowing you could have just macrod through the whole thing and not played at all and done just as well. SWG has probably more content than any other MMORPG I've played, it's just all been trivialized. Admittedly macros are not wholly responsible, but they had a hand in it.
I hate to say it but 3rd party programs are already pretty rampantly used in SWG. Can you spot anyone (Who doesn't openly say so) who is using a 3rd party program? Not right now, because in many cases it's nearly indistinguishable from something that has been deemed OK. Get rid of that something and now theres a risk to using a 3rd party program. So yes, it does stop a lot. If it didn't stop anything, why would so many people be concerned about it in the first place?
People are macroing because it’s not fun to sit there and click 300000000000000000 times to do something. That is not content, it is repetition. Do you honestly think its fun to make 10,000 crafting tools to hit Engineering IV? No. Are you seriously trying to say creating tons and tons of crafting tools is content? LOL! Right now crafting something by macroing in game is decent; you still have to be there to do it. (To click on the ingredients) It takes away the 30 clicks you must go through to make something, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Totally removing the ability to do it in game will send people to 3rd party programs and I guarantee you, the types of macros you can do in those are MUCH MUCH worse than the ones you can do in game. So what then? You will start having to fight to detect 3rd party programs. Been there, its not pretty and SOE will never win. You will spend so much time and money detecting it, instead of spending it on making the game better. Which is time taken away from providing more CONTENT.
I would also like to say that you are a Correspondent. Your job is to listen to your CUSTOMERS and relay that information to the right people. Arguing with your CUSTOMERS is not very professional.
Message Edited by loonatik on 08-09-2004 05:58 PM
The solution is not to make the trip to master shorter, it's to give you more to do. Give lower end artisans a more viable place in the market.
If you can just get to the top of most professions with a macro, what is the point of there being a game in the first place? Do you want to skip right to the final boss in Doom 3? Games that are too easy aren't any fun. You "beat" them then get bored and move on. If there is something people don't like, making it so players can skip it is not an answer. Fixing it so people like it is.
Yes, people will use 3rd party macros even if it's not allowed. Some will get caught, some will get away with it. They will all be taking a risk. That will massively cut down on the number of people doing it; the casual gamer will not be willing to take the risk. You see, just because you can't win is no reason not to try. You don't have to "win" for something to be worthwile. Ever hear the expression "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."? While that is referring to sports, the message is that it isn't always about the "win".
As to my position as correspondent, I have no customers. I am not in business here. I am a player just like you, I have my opinions just like you. I also have a community to represent. That doesn't mean I take every little thing people say to the devs. If they want to do that they can come and read things themselves. I am here so when they say "What does your community want" they can get an answer without having to sort through a long history of posts. That doesn't stop me from having an opinion, and my opinion doesn't always agree with my answers. I don't pull the answers out of my ass, I answer with what the community wants. Last time I checked, my community wanted something done about unattended gameplay as their top priority issue. The fact that I agree is secondary, but just goes to show that I too am a member of the community. I often don't even count my own opinion when making note of what the community wants. Debating is a part of understanding the community. A community that, I might add, you did not take an active interest in until yesterday, where you addressed me as if I made the decision. I assure you I have no such control over the devs. I can make all the suggestions I like, but in the end I have no more impact on the decisions than the community I represent. The decision was made by the developers, and one can assume it is for the health of the game.
Tiaga wrote:
It is your choice to make crafting tools instead of fireworks, personal harvesters, chance cubes, bone armor, or any of the other many things artisans can make. Not to mention that if you are just grinding, doing crafting tools the whole way is one of the slower ways to go. That is self inflicted agony, and not a reason that the game should let you skip it.
The solution is not to make the trip to master shorter, it's to give you more to do. Give lower end artisans a more viable place in the market.
If you can just get to the top of most professions with a macro, what is the point of there being a game in the first place? Do you want to skip right to the final boss in Doom 3? Games that are too easy aren't any fun. You "beat" them then get bored and move on. If there is something people don't like, making it so players can skip it is not an answer. Fixing it so people like it is.
Yes, people will use 3rd party macros even if it's not allowed. Some will get caught, some will get away with it. They will all be taking a risk. That will massively cut down on the number of people doing it; the casual gamer will not be willing to take the risk. You see, just because you can't win is no reason not to try. You don't have to "win" for something to be worthwile. Ever hear the expression "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."? While that is referring to sports, the message is that it isn't always about the "win".
As to my position as correspondent, I have no customers. I am not in business here. I am a player just like you, I have my opinions just like you. I also have a community to represent. That doesn't mean I take every little thing people say to the devs. If they want to do that they can come and read things themselves. I am here so when they say "What does your community want" they can get an answer without having to sort through a long history of posts. That doesn't stop me from having an opinion, and my opinion doesn't always agree with my answers. I don't pull the answers out of my ass, I answer with what the community wants. Last time I checked, my community wanted something done about unattended gameplay as their top priority issue. The fact that I agree is secondary, but just goes to show that I too am a member of the community. I often don't even count my own opinion when making note of what the community wants. Debating is a part of understanding the community. A community that, I might add, you did not take an active interest in until yesterday, where you addressed me as if I made the decision. I assure you I have no such control over the devs. I can make all the suggestions I like, but in the end I have no more impact on the decisions than the community I represent. The decision was made by the developers, and one can assume it is for the health of the game.
There is zeromarket for anyone that is not master and has a stash of godly resources. Maybe thats the goal, but currently in SWG it flat out does not happen. It is not my choice to craft 10k items to be able to START making any money. That is what you have to do. There is no content there.
"The solution is not to make the trip to master shorter, it's to give you more to do."
Thats eq mentality. Give them 60 levels, and they will continue to play... fight, level, fight, level, fight level.... If you allow someone to get their character to where they want in a resonable amount of time, THEN they can focus on PLAYING the game. Instead of leveling, or grinding. That is where the content is, not in making10,000 crafting tools.
Rather than prevent people from looping just ban people who are macroing unattended. Its not hard to find, go outside theed any freaking day of the week. You can find em. Go to ANY cantina, 90% of the people in there are doing it. Why arent you banning them? Its against the rules. What is preventing looping going to accomplish? The people that are really abusing it, the ones that should be kicked, will continue to abuse it with 3rd party programs. All you are doing is inconveniencing your every day customers. You can take steps now to ban them. Yet you havent. Why?
You hear a few people complaining about unattended macroing and you assume thats how we all feel? There is talk of messing up the game, so yes, im stepping forward and speaking because myself and others will be inconvenienced by this. Im confused about your comment on me not taking an interest until yesterday. I have been playing this game since beta 3, I have been on the forums for a long time. So where you get the idea that I just stumbled in here for the very first time is beyond me.
You are correct in saying you have a community to represet, I voiced my opinon to you. I did not state in any way shape or form that you made the decision. I was trying to share my views with my only voice to the developers,and rather than represent me to the developers, you have decided to argue with me.
If you have ideas for how to make crafting more fun, by all means suggest them in an appropriate place. I don't see how not playing the game by running macros while you're AFK is engaging gameplay or fun either... it's clearly so unfun that you're, well, AFK. Away From Keyboard. Not playing the game. Letting a macro automate all game functions so you don't even have to be there to play the game.
No one chooses to do this, it is how the game is.
loonatik wrote:There is zeromarket for anyone that is not master and has a stash of godly resources. Maybe thats the goal, but currently in SWG it flat out does not happen. It is not my choice to craft 10k items to be able to START making any money. That is what you have to do. There is no content there.
"The solution is not to make the trip to master shorter, it's to give you more to do."
Thats eq mentality. Give them 60 levels, and they will continue to play... fight, level, fight, level, fight level.... If you allow someone to get their character to where they want in a resonable amount of time, THEN they can focus on PLAYING the game. Instead of leveling, or grinding. That is where the content is, not in making10,000 crafting tools.
Rather than prevent people from looping just ban people who are macroing unattended. Its not hard to find, go outside theed any freaking day of the week. You can find em. Go to ANY cantina, 90% of the people in there are doing it. Why arent you banning them? Its against the rules. What is preventing looping going to accomplish? The people that are really abusing it, the ones that should be kicked, will continue to abuse it with 3rd party programs. All you are doing is inconveniencing your every day customers. You can take steps now to ban them. Yet you havent. Why?
You hear a few people complaining about unattended macroing and you assume thats how we all feel? There is talk of messing up the game, so yes, im stepping forward and speaking because myself and others will be inconvenienced by this. Im confused about your comment on me not taking an interest until yesterday. I have been playing this game since beta 3, I have been on the forums for a long time. So where you get the idea that I just stumbled in here for the very first time is beyond me.
You are correct in saying you have a community to represet, I voiced my opinon to you. I did not state in any way shape or form that you made the decision. I was trying to share my views with my only voice to the developers,and rather than represent me to the developers, you have decided to argue with me.
No, that's not EQ mentality, that's what a game is about. Doing stuff. If you want to just get past everything the game has for you to do, no wonder you don't see any content. And is doing it like EQ such a bad thing? You don't get to be the most popular MMORPG for many years running, even in the face of competition and multiple "EQ Killers" by doing things wrong.
And no, I hear it from members of the entertainer community, which I must again point out you are not. I asked the community what they thought. There was a thread where anybody could come in and give their views about what was important issues. The unattended gameplay issue didn't just come out on top, it did so by a landslide.
And I know what it is like below master in a crafting profession. Now, would you rather just have a button anyone can click to get master architect or armorsmith instantly, or would you rather there be a viable market for lower level architects and armorsmiths, so that they can build up a reputation by selling decently made goods while they gain experience?
The game does not start at master.
I would also like to say that you are a Correspondent. Your job is to listen to your CUSTOMERS and relay that information to the right people. Arguing with your CUSTOMERS is not very professional.
loonatik wrote:
When you are done with your insane rant realize that the macroing is only envolved to get you to master. At which point people begin to really play the game.
Tiaga wrote:
That doesn't mean they should stop trying. It's not something you can ever 100% succeed at, as people by nature want something for nothing. But those games have much less problem with unattended play than SWG does.
Just because it's impossible is not a good reason to stop trying. By that logic you should leave your front door open and your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, since you can't stop someone who wants to get in or steal your car.
You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software. Once that starts rolling it all goes down hill. They had a good idea by allowing it in the game. It satisifed most people so they didnt have to download outside stuff. I also think you are naieve to think other mmogs dont have their fair share of unattended macroing. I have played almost every single one, and its rampit in just about all of them.
Your anaology is a little flawed. People unattended macroing are not stealing anything. Anyone can download a in game macro and use it. Its open to everyone. You put up a policy like this and people will do it anyway but do it in 3rd party programs. Then you have a bigger issue because its really unfair to the people who dont know how to use them.
I speak from experience. I have seen it happen in a lot of mmogs. SWG was one ofthe first to openly welcome macroing in the game. I was very impressed. Doing this now is taking a huge step backwards.
loonatik wrote:
You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software. Once that starts rolling it all goes down hill. They had a good idea by allowing it in the game. It satisifed most people so they didnt have to download outside stuff. I also think you are naieve to think other mmogs dont have their fair share of unattended macroing. I have played almost every single one, and its rampit in just about all of them.
Your anaology is a little flawed. People unattended macroing are not stealing anything. Anyone can download a in game macro and use it. Its open to everyone. You put up a policy like this and people will do it anyway but do it in 3rd party programs. Then you have a bigger issue because its really unfair to the people who dont know how to use them.
I speak from experience. I have seen it happen in a lot of mmogs. SWG was one ofthe first to openly welcome macroing in the game. I was very impressed. Doing this now is taking a huge step backwards.