Entertainer Archive
Thread: Macro'ed Master Musician Take or Leave it!! soon you'll beg for it..
Chessack wrote:
NightRider --
You are right if they do it in their house or something. Let 'em and who cares. Then they are only harming themselves.
The problem is that when they go obviously AFK and marco, in public, in the cantina, for hours on end, a large # of things happen to all the rest of us who don't do that.
For example:
- Damaged Reputation of the Profession -- Everyone sees this public dispaly of AFKMing. Everyone knows it for what it is. Because so many "Master" Dancers and Musicians got the title by AFKMing, it ruins the reputation of those who did not. Players have started assuming that "Master Dancer" = "Master of the AFK Macro" and people justifiably have very little respect for that. For those who have played every minute at the keyboard, this diminishes what they have accomplished.
- It throws off the supply/demand ratio -- People complain frequently on this board that we are not tipped enough. Well, tipping has to do with supply and demand. If players know they can just walk into any cantina and get healed by an AFKer for free, any time of day, why should they tip or pay or go out of their way to find an active one? Because people AFKM for many hours at a time, an AFK entertainer is almost always available. Things that are available in high supply, are not valued as highly. (This is why, for example, gold is more valuable than copper -- the supply of copper is much higher than that of gold.) Entertainers become something not to be RPed with, interacted with, and respected as a separate class, but simply bots to AFK in front of while your PC gets auto-healed by some other object whose player is also AFK (and thus irrelevent).
- Interference with the band/troupe -- This applies to many AFKMers. They don't just do it quietly in a corner. They park themselves smack dab in the middle of the dance floor, right in front of the door. They macro-spam the room for tips. This irritates just about everyone and interferes with the active players' (entertainers and patrons alike) ability to RP and enjoy themselves.
The basic attitude of the more rude variant of the AFKMers is pretty much, "*bleep* you! I want to grind while AFK and I don't care if you like it or not." That's a pretty obnoxious attitude, IMO. Given what the are doing to hurt the entire profession (listed above), you'd think they would have at least the good sense to feel ashamed at what they are doing. Instead, many of them seem proud of it. Some of them even brag about their "macroing" ability. Which is silly... anyone can macro.
At any rate, the AFKMers most entertainers take umbrage at are doing many things to make life harder for active roleplayers. Why shouldn't the active roleplayers be annoyed, and voice that annoyance, at their lives being made harder by people who are, in a word, lazy?
C
First, I see these issues as not a problem of being afk while macroing. I see them as rude people that do not care about others. AFK macro'ing doesn't affect the reputation of Entertainers. What I see as affecting our reputation is the begging for tips and macro's that spam garbage. I see no reason how a entertainer in the far corner of a cantina on afk building xp affects anything. It is the obnoxious attention grabbers that are the problem, whether they are afk or not. As for supply/demand ratio I do see this as a problem, but I also see that it will even out as people reach mastery and stop afk macro'ing. For xp purposes, an afk macro'd band member is actually helping you get more xp, if he is not obnoxious and in the way, the advantages to everyone else can be nice.
I see no reason how a entertainer in the far corner of a cantina on afk building xp affects anything. It is the obnoxious attention grabbers that are the problem, whether they are afk or not. As for supply/demand ratio I do see this as a problem, but I also see that it will even out as people reach mastery and stop afk macro'ing. For xp purposes, an afk macro'd band member is actually helping you get more xp, if he is not obnoxious and in the way, the advantages to everyone else can be nice.
If most AFKers were 'in the far corner of a cantina', you wouldn't hear people complaining about them like they do. "Most" afk'ers plop themselves front and center, or wherever they happened to crash out the last time they were in game.
As for people in band, they DO cause problems, regardless of any XP they offer, because they force use of /start band /stopband to include them, and if they don't have the song you want to move to, you either stay low for somoene who's not even there, or have someone standing in the middle of the band not playing.
AdaraX wrote:
I see no reason how a entertainer in the far corner of a cantina on afk building xp affects anything. It is the obnoxious attention grabbers that are the problem, whether they are afk or not. As for supply/demand ratio I do see this as a problem, but I also see that it will even out as people reach mastery and stop afk macro'ing. For xp purposes, an afk macro'd band member is actually helping you get more xp, if he is not obnoxious and in the way, the advantages to everyone else can be nice.
If most AFKers were 'in the far corner of a cantina', you wouldn't hear people complaining about them like they do. "Most" afk'ers plop themselves front and center, or wherever they happened to crash out the last time they were in game.
I agree, this is definitely the problem.
As for people in band, they DO cause problems, regardless of any XP they offer, because they force use of /start band /stopband to include them, and if they don't have the song you want to move to, you either stay low for somoene who's not even there, or have someone standing in the middle of the band not playing.
I use /startband and /stopband everytime I want to change songs. It gets everyone on the same tune quickly and efficiently while also telling me if band member cannot play the particular song. If the only person that can't play the song is the afk person in the middle, well they don't get a vote do they. Guess they won't be gaining xp afterall. This is the best option because it keeps a cycling /startmusic command in the macro from functioning at all. They just stand there all night gaining nothing, no xp, no tips.
AFK Macroing...it's a tough call.
Suppose you're on Lok. You go the cantina, and there's one AFK musician there. Now...I've only been to Lok once so far, but folks were begging me to stay in the cantina, when I was eager to get back to hunting. Seems to me like folks would be glad to see an AFK musician.
People say "You're an entertainer. Entertain! Don't do it if you don't like it."Bah! That's easily said by someone who ISN'T an entertainer. Understand, dancers and musicians are restricted when it comes to song/dance/instrument choice, by what can give us the best XP. You just don't know how many countless hours I've spent playing Starwars1. Imagine, playing it two hours, and the low man on the totem pole finally hits Rock. Then another newbie with a slitherhorn runs in and asks to join. Aaargh! I just turn the sound off and listen to my own music. I use a macro to play and chat a bit.
We have the boring grind of an artisan without the money and none of the thrill of combat professions. Hell, we stay in the same spot for hours. Non-AFK entertainers only have fun for about an hour or two, then we have to go do other stuff to keep our sanity. No other profession has so little to do.
Entertainer missions or gigs consist of running to a cantina or hotel and playing or dancing for five minutes. The pay-out is wretched. After the novelty of one or two missions, it's obvious that money will not be made that way.
Instrument crafting? Bah! I can buy any instrument on the bazaar for under 3k. They never degrade and have no stats. So there's no such thing as a musician crafter.
I will hit Master Musician soon for the novelty. And then start dropping skills. I've heard virtuoso on the Naglaron and I wasn't impressed. I figure I can drop my entire tech line and maybe wound3 and 4 without actually hurting my effectiveness as an entertainer.
Morbeious wrote:
...set my Mastermusician on macro in the cantinasto help out!
BINGO!
Imagine, if you will, you're a Bounty Hunter fresh from a Jedi kill. What would you rather see: A) AFK Macroing person or B) An empty cantina?
People say "You're an entertainer. Entertain! Don't do it if you don't like it."Bah! That's easily said by someone who ISN'T an entertainer. Understand, dancers and musicians are restricted when it comes to song/dance/instrument choice, by what can give us the best XP.
We are? I thought once you learned a new dance you could go back and do the old ones. If not, then there must be a bug, since my PC, who knows up through formal, can dance Basic 1 if I want her to.
Oh, I see, you're not saying we're actually restricted in fact, just that "if you want the maximum XP for your dances/songs, you have to play the highest one." That's true, but realize this is your own, internal restriction, not a built in game restriction. If you're trying to zoom your way up through musician just to try out the different songs, or something, then that's fine... But I for one intend to stick with my little apprentice dancer for a long, long time, and I have no interest in zooming. I have her pick whatever dance makes the most sense for whatever song the band is playing, and if it means less XP to do basic 2, then so what? She'll gain the XP eventually, and in the mean time I can have her do the proper dance.
But see, my interest is in roleplaying my character, not powerlevelling her, so we have different motivations, I guess. Last night there was a group of 12 or so entertainers in Moenia cantina and half were AFK. My dance was earning 35+ xp per flourish. Nobody was RPing. I left and went to Keren, where there were only 2 other entertainers, and spent 2 hours with them, RPing, and only earning 20 or so XP per flourish. Who cares about the XP whent he roleplay is so good? Heck, we even all stopped completely and us and 3 or 4 patrons went outside and the band leader shot off fireworks (for 0 XP but great RP). It's not always about "the grind" you know. Or at least it doesn't have to be unless you let it. :-)
Now I have to admit last night my PC just learned formal and even though there are only 3 or 4 decent flourishes in that dance (grrr, annoying), I will probably use it a lot. I won't use it a lot because it gets her XP... I will use it a lot because I like the way it looks (she looks very graceful and lithe doing the moves) and I enjoy watching her do it. I picture her as a very graceful and smooth dancer and the other dances, while "cute" are not quite how I wanted her. So I will use it a lot (as long as it fits the music well enough) not because of XP but because I just like it.
Non-AFK entertainers only have fun for about an hour or two, then we have to go do other stuff to keep our sanity. No other profession has so little to do.
This is both true and false. As a non-AFK entertainer among a group of AFKMers, I was thoroughly bored multiple times this weekend and just went out to do some surveying (her 2nd profession, just a hobby right now, but eventually it will be more than that, is crafting clothes, eventually tailoring, so she can design her own dance outfits).
With a group of people who are all active, however, I can stay in the cantina for hours and hours and never get bored. What you need is a group of people to get together and RP. Then it is fun... Without that, it's boring not in an hour or two, but in 10 minutes.
I think the entire discussion here and on the several other threads about this topic reveals one thing: what matters in this regard is goals and attitude. If your goal is that you want to attain master ASAP and your attitude is that you want to grind through the "weaker stuff" to get it then yes, AFKMing is a logical choice and you won't see any other way to do it. But if your goal is to RP an entertainer character and your attitude is that you just want to enjoy the character, then which dances she can perform, or which songs she knows, really don't matter much.
Remember that if you are roleplaying, nothing "bad" can truly happen to a character. Oh, it may seem bad to the PC, but to the player, adverse conditions for the character are often wonderful -- they give you something to RP about. Rather than being upset at SW 1 as a song (yes we all get sick of it from time to time), you can RP about it with the other player. That's not going to make the song go away but to me at least it makes the session more tolerable. And since they get XP fast enough to gain rock music in a fairly short period of time, maybe the RPing will make that time period go by faster, eh?
I know this: I did not like footloose very much. It's my least favorite of the 4 dances I know so far with this character. I needed Dance IV to get formal. It seemed like it was taking forever because in my old haunt nobody was RPing, so I could only stand to look at it for half an hour maybe and then got sick of it and went off surveying. It took me like a week to get 1/2 of Dance IV done. Then yesterday, I found the Keren cantina with 2 or 3 people, which meant lower XP and should have seemed to take even longer, and you know what? In very short order I finished Dance IV off. Oh wait, it wasn't short.... it was like 6 hours (3 in the morning, 3 in the evening). It only seemed short because we were RPing the whole time and it was fun. I was even doing the footloose dance much of the time (since it fit the music, much to my chagrin), and it didn't bother me, though I dislike that particular dance. Why? Because I wasn't even watching it much (other than to time flourishes)... I was busy reading and typing dialog in RP -- and having a ball.
See what I mean? It all depends on what your goals are, and how you go about attaining them...
C
Chessack wrote:
Oh, I see, you're not saying we're actually restricted in fact, just that "if you want the maximum XP for your dances/songs, you have to play the highest one." That's true, but realize this is your own, internal restriction, not a built in game restriction. If you're trying to zoom your way up through musician just to try out the different songs, or something, then that's fine... But I for one intend to stick with my little apprentice dancer for a long, long time, and I have no interest in zooming. I have her pick whatever dance makes the most sense for whatever song the band is playing, and if it means less XP... yada yada yada
See what I mean? It all depends on what your goals are, and how you go about attaining them...
C
*coughbullsh1tcough*
Ok, ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a second... I don't think most people share your view of wanting to be an apprentice dancer for "a long, long time"./chuckle That's not even really tempting from a "roleplaying" standpoint, what does being a newbie for "a long, long time" have to do with rollplaying?
Heck, this doesn't even have anything to do with being AFK come to think of it, just about all dancers I know will pick their highest dance regardless of the song... that is another thread I think. 
Well I'm not being much more relevant... at least I admit it. 
lol
I wouldn't. I like developing a character slowly. I like my character as she is. What does she need to be an expert right away for? I kind of like RPing this kind of down-on-her-luck dancer who can barely scrape by and is trying to slowly learn more dances and improve her art. The character is quite charming to me (as a player), in large part for this reason. Now, I won't mind if she eventually becomes a rich-and-famous master dancer (not saying she will, saying I won't mind if she does). But I am in no rush to get there. I'm enjoying her as she is right now. I guess, from a roleplay perspective, I feel like getting there is half -- maybe 3/4 of -- the fun. For me, the journey is why I am here... not the endpoint.
I admit it. Formal is her highest dance and I have done it a lot. Why? Not because it generates XP. Because I really, truly, do not care about XP. I do it a lot because I like how it looks -- graceful, elegant, sophisticated (compared to the other 3 dances she can do). The dance "looks good on her" as you might say.
Again, I am a pretty heavy-duty RPer. For people like me, adversity (e.g. not having many dances to choose from, being poor, struggling with your craft) are not bad things -- they are the meat and potatoes of roleplay. Adversity = something to RP about. Take away the adversity, and the RP becomes a lot more... well, dull. In fact, really good RPers will make up adversity to give themselves something fun to RP about. They'll RP that a relative (nonexistent in game as a PC but perhaps part of their background) died, or something along those lines. So, I don't mind a little adversity in my character's life -- it gives me something to RP about -- a roleplay "hook" as it were.
So, as I say. It depends on your perspective.
C
My observations thus far:
A little about me. Was a beta addict, originally a medic. Picked up dancing, then a slither and haven't turned back since. Started a "pure" musician at launch. I have never AFK macroed, period. I've never felt the desire or need to. I was the 4th or 5th master musician (somewhere around there, anyway) on Eclipse, but I got there by spending more time at my computer than I should have (leaving work early, staying up until wee hours of the morning, etc).
My experience has been that I have more fun with the profession when I am actively involved in the environment--which is largely why I like to travel all over the place and especially find those places that are desparate for "better music". AFK macroing my way to the top would have been pointless. I feel that I've earned Master Musician from the experiences I've had while getting it and while being interactive with the people who helped me.
Do I feel the meaning of my title degraded by those who AFK macro for hours? Yes. Do I wish there was at least some steps taken to mitigate it? Yes. It makes me feel like I really didn't earn anything meaningful (as has been stated already on this board).
But...the biggest difference I have seen between a macro-musician and a real musician is when they finally get to Master. The macro-musicians nearly always (in every case that I've been aware of, anyway) almost immediately find another profession to start playing and don't stick to playing music just for fun.
I love to play music still. I'm trying to learn dancing as well (more of that cantina environment), but I get distracted when someone starts playing ceremonial or ballad or something and I end up breaking out the appropriate instrument and joining them. I go to parties to play music for the guests. I like to play at the shuttle port for people who are sitting there bored waiting for the shuttle to arrive. I love it!
So to the original poster, I think it's just the opposite. I thinkthe real musicians, the ones who have enjoyed being musicians from the start and have worked their way up to the top always at their computer, will be the ones who will stick around. Thank goodness. 
Now if only being a "Master Musician" actually meant something unique...
I see no reason how a entertainer in the far corner of a cantina on afk building xp affects anything.
I agree with AdaraX here. It has also been my experience that these folks are not polite about their willingness to AFK macro. They usually demand to be invited to the current group, stand next to the rest of the entertainers, then leave without another word for hours on end. (Some will check back every half hour to see if they've been dropped, and then nag some more until they are reinvited.)
It is those people I have problems with, and of all the AFK macroers I've met (well over a dozen), only two did not follow that stereotype.
Chessack wrote:
But see, my interest is in roleplaying my character, not powerlevelling her, so we have different motivations, I guess. Last night there was a group of 12 or so entertainers in Moenia cantina and half were AFK. My dance was earning 35+ xp per flourish. Nobody was RPing. I left and went to Keren, where there were only 2 other entertainers, and spent 2 hours with them, RPing, and only earning 20 or so XP per flourish. Who cares about the XP whent he roleplay is so good? Heck, we even all stopped completely and us and 3 or 4 patrons went outside and the band leader shot off fireworks (for 0 XP but great RP). It's not always about "the grind" you know. Or at least it doesn't have to be unless you let it. :-)
There was one day in beta where we weren't getting much traffic in the cantina. We decided to try something different and moved our entire band into the street near the shuttleport closest to the bank in Mos Espa. We got our clothing to match, the instruments set up in just the right places, and even had an artisan using a survey tool for effect. It was one of the best times I've had in this game.
We didn't earn one point of ent healing exp. (At the time, ent healing exp was more than 4x harder to get than it is now single and probably 16x harder when in a group.)
That said, I understand where you're coming from. I mentioned above I prefer the desolate, empty cantinas (less exp, though that is not the reason obviously) and that was the case even before I was a Master Musician or master anything for that matter.
BUT...if you just got formal, then you're relatively new to the profession. You will begin to feel that you are going nowhere when you get into the elite dancing profession and it will cause you to re-evaluate your position on RP over "gotta get something done". I'm not saying it will be your primary focus to grind, but it will certainly take less of a back seat than it does now. You'll just have to trust me on that, which is difficult to do, I realize. It will happen.
Given that, some of the barriers are frustrating. Not being able to play a better song when someone new wants to join, etc. Now that I do have all instruments, it's not so bad. But getting up to Music Knowledge 2 (bandfill) is very painful because the instrument sounds are very limited.