Entertainer Archive
Thread: On Denying Services
DarkLadyT wrote:
Just wanted to point out that you can NOT continue to gain xp by being AFK. I am currently working on Dance IV and the other night I had to step away from the computer for domestic reasons and thought to myself, "I'll just keep dancing and hopefully get a few extra xp." I got back to realize that after the xp continued to drop due to lack or flourishes, that the xp stopped all together. Since then I have experimented with it and I don't know at what level it happens, but you will not get xp by just standing there dancing or even afk. The time between flourishes will cause xp to drop, and the longer you go between flourishes, the less xp you will receive.
Hey Dark Lady, thanks for the feedback!
Just so you know, AFK dancing is possible and is another big debate topic! Suffice it to say, you can create a macro and come back every so often to train to the next skill level. The class is extremely easy to level while AFK.
There are enough things that performers do already to shoot themselves and their profession in the foot. Adding a denial of services would only further that behavior. It won't help those that want tips get tips it will only make the customers find a free entertainer. It will lessen the communities willingness to accept unknowns into groups since if one member is denying their healing to some it will lessen the overall experienced gained by the band as a whole.
It will also lessen the overall tips for the group since a covercharge will be seen as payment rendered. As it stands now there are some folks that don't tip at all some that tip a little (say 50 cr) some that tip well (100-200) and some that tip exceptionally well (1000+) so if you add a basic covercharge of say 100 credits then you are forcing those that have had a bad day to pay what they may not be able to afford while at the same time lowering the payment level of those that tip exceptionally. I'd much rather perform for free fornine people and have one person tip me 2000 than to charge each of them 100 credits because that just cut my pay in half.
I have regular clients when they have bad days I have bad days when they have good days I have good days. I have some freeloaders oh well it's a public place I have other options for performance and I don't hold grudges. The freeloaders aren't the people I send clients to for their profession.
I'm against /denyservices as a form of abuse protection because it will be abused by people like yourself that would abuse it as a way to demand tips.
One solution, if we want better tips, bend over backwards for good tippers. I have one coustomer that tips extremely well. I will not let him leave without a 5 min. conversation. And I always get a huge tip from him when he comes in.
If we compliment every girl in a red dress, every time we see her, then by the end of the semester the whole campus will be red. You've heard that story I'm sure, and it works. Slowly, and more slowly than insulting all the girls in non-red dresses, but it works.
KoraJubali wrote:
I would much prefer a method to reward good tippers than a method to punish bad tippers. The positive side of Behavior Analysis works slower, but more consistently in the long run.
One solution, if we want better tips, bend over backwards for good tippers. I have one coustomer that tips extremely well. I will not let him leave without a 5 min. conversation. And I always get a huge tip from him when he comes in.
If we compliment every girl in a red dress, every time we see her, then by the end of the semester the whole campus will be red. You've heard that story I'm sure, and it works. Slowly, and more slowly than insulting all the girls in non-red dresses, but it works.
I must respectfully disagree with you here. Positive reinforcement (as well as non-violent protest) can take literally YEARS to have any visible effect, and that effect is usually a fraction of what is desired. And this is in the real world. In an online game, and on the internet in general, there is no motivation for anyone to change their behavior. People who are jerks now will always be jerks. People who don't tip you now never will. Suppose "Bob" is a good customer, who tips you well. You talk to Bob, and know him pretty well; Bob has lots of nice adventures, and enjoys in-character talk. You like Bob. I like Bob too; I know quite a few guys like Bob in the game. Now let's look at Ted. Ted doesn't tip at all. Ted can see that you pay much more attention to Bob, and that this is probably because Bob is much friendlier than he is. But Ted doesn't care, since he gets everything he wants from you already, and all for free. It's like living in a Communist country, but still getting paid in cash. The system gives, and you don't have to give back. Why should you change your behavior to get something extra, when you're already getting everything you want? Your idea, while valid in the real world, will never work in an MMORPG. Even in the real world, positive reinforcement is difficult to apply, which is why our justice system works by punishing the guilty, not by rewarding the good.
I see the problem you've brought up and I agree that it is a problem. (abusive players and i guess non-tippers is the problem i see that you have brought up, not refering here to that small disagreement about psychology)
I think it's not as large a problem as you say. I also think that there are some systems in place to combat the problems that are working reasonably well. I'll admit it's not perfect and griefers will always be there. But I don't see it as large as an issue as I think you are suggesting. I think there should be a different way to address the problem than deny of service. I've suggested a few in a few different threads and I havn't found one that's really to my liking yet. I'm hoping that my brainstormed suggestions will spark some good suggestions from other people. Here's to hoping.
So we'll have to disagree on denial of service too.
I'm not saying "it works fine for me so it's fine for you too." There is a problem and we need to address it, but I would like to hear many more options and decide which is best. I'd rather not add in this solution before we see what else is out there. Denial of services might cause a new nest of problems with griefing, I couldn't say, it might work great i guess but I don't trust the musician class to be nice and not abuse it any more than i trust griefers to be nice and not abuse the dancers.
I'm not sure that by implementing denial of services we're not just shuffling the buck without solving the problem.
You make some good points tho CantinaFly and they've got me thinking so thanks for that.
It is possible to level afk and fairly easy to do so however once you level if you spent the entire time afk you'll be outa luck.
The entertainer community is a very tight knit group moreso than any other profession since we don't compete with each other we only enhance each other. Sure you could get to elite master while afk but why? what would you do then?
As it stands once a performer is a master they have very few options as to what to do with that skill. They can continue to perform in cantinas and provide healing services, they can form up with other performers and do shows and go on the road, they can hire themselves out to hunting parties for camp healing, or they can do a private forum. With the exception of camp mind wound healing (which is only 50% of a performers ability) the rest of the options will only benefit the performer that has a following, an audience and customers. A performers following comes not from their healing abilities (every performer of the same level is exactly the same) but from how they perform and their relationships with thier clients.
The only thing suitable for a performer that spent their entire skill up process afk is as a ent healing mule for a PA or a group and if that is their goal why does it effect you? They won't be effected by the ability to /deny services (something I am extremely against see my other posts on the issue) since they will only be healing for a select few anyway.
Cantinafly -
The point is your solution does hurt others. It hurts the entire entertainment community that must rely on the goodwill of the rest of the galaxy. Everytime someone asks to be tipped or is snide when they don't get tips another performer has to be doubly friendly and go above and beyond to turn that customer back into a friendly tipper. We can't force people to tip (it's a tip not a salary) people have to want to tip.
If you feel that entertainers deserve payment for their services don't work for a denyservices option petition SoE to put entertainers on salary (something that will never happen).
Ndainye wrote:Cantinafly -
The point is your solution does hurt others. It hurts the entire entertainment community that must rely on the goodwill of the rest of the galaxy. Everytime someone asks to be tipped or is snide when they don't get tips another performer has to be doubly friendly and go above and beyond to turn that customer back into a friendly tipper. We can't force people to tip (it's a tip not a salary) people have to want to tip.
If you feel that entertainers deserve payment for their services don't work for a denyservices option petition SoE to put entertainers on salary (something that will never happen).
If that were true, then why hasn't the "please remember to tip your dancers" spam macro-ing (which has been around since the day I started, about a month ago) "damaged" the profession? It's still bugging people for tips. It doesn't hurt anyone's reputation except for the person who's demanding the money. It's not like there's only one entertainer per cantina. One person would ask for money, the fighter would say 'hell no', and try the next one. The only way it would really work is if an entire cantina full of entertainers decided to hold out for money before healing (which they really should have the right to do). As it is now, a band could remain quiet until they were paid, but then someone who hasn't paid could come in and benefit from what other people paid for. If you had a deny services option, it would be more fair for everyone. What's really "harming" the profession now is the perception that it's not a real profession, just an AFK xp farm for people looking to cyber. And who can blame them? Would you respect someone who is forced to help you, regardless of whether you pay them? The way the profession is set up now, one is basically forced to work for free. Many other professions (medics, for example) will work for free, but that's mostly a choice because they have total control over their abilities. Entertainers do not.
I'm sorry I stoped readying after CantinaFly said she can't afford to purchase a small house unless she spends half her play time doing something else. No offence but, where the hell are you dancing? I dance in Tyrena which compared to some is a dead zone, compared to others has many people. I have made enough in tips to buy two (2) medium houses, plus spend over 40k in clothing, plus pay for clothes for other people (that I've never met)that I know can't afford it (I see them bargining in the cantina with the tailor), plus buy gifts for friends.
I do not think we should refuse service and I have rude customers come into my cantina. I also have alot of friends that do their best to be bouncers *grin* Danceing is a hobby, someone in another post said why make it a profession if it's just a hobby. Well I do it as my profession but it is my hobby. I don't expect to ever be rich. I hardly ever leave the cantina. I dont' know that I will ever master another tree (once I finally master dance *grin*). I don't need money. I get enough tips to buy the clothes I want. If you want to be rich and buy lots of things then do another profession or play the one you do now better, or take entertainer missions (just accept then deleat till you find one in the city you are in to avoid travel costs).
Ok I think that is all for now. I'm sure I've offended someone. And I have probably repeated someone but as I said I stoped reading after the 3rd or 4th post. These are just my opinions and you don't have to agree but I don't have to agree with you either pthhh *grin*
KoraJubali wrote:
you see what I mean by that tho Etalesi?
as soon as there's a system to exploit it someone will.
I should clarify I guess. Most of the musicians I've ever met in the game are good mature people. As soon as there's a way to grief, I'm afraid that the type of person who griefs will suddenly decide to play a musician and use their new toy. As it is now I think all of us musicians, at least the ones I've met, know when and where we'd be using or not using a denial of services. I for one, however, think the system in place is moderate to fair in this area of denying service and combatting abusive people.
How? If you're in a cantina full of good people and a jerk comes in, you have three options:
1. Keep playing and endure the abuse. This teaches the jerk that it's okay to abuse people, because they'll never fight back.
2. Ignore him and keep playing, knowing the whole time that you are still healing him. All he's learned is that he can be a jerk and nothing will happen to him.
3. Stop playing, thereby punishing everyone (kind of unfair, isn't it?). And the jerk STILL won't learn anything, other than the fact that he can inconvenience a whole lot of people by antagonizing a few entertainers into stopping their performance.
And that doesn't even begin to address the money problem, but let's put that aside for a moment. No point in considering people less fortunate.
This does not seem like a good system to me. Perhaps you had some other solution in mind? I'd love to hear it.
I couldn't say, it might work great i guess but I don't trust the musician class to be nice and not abuse it any more than i trust griefers to be nice and not abuse the dancers.
Ouch.