Entertainer Archive
Thread: On Denying Services
you see what I mean by that tho Etalesi?
as soon as there's a system to exploit it someone will.
I should clarify I guess. Most of the musicians I've ever met in the game are good mature people. As soon as there's a way to grief, I'm afraid that the type of person who griefs will suddenly decide to play a musician and use their new toy. As it is now I think all of us musicians, at least the ones I've met, know when and where we'd be using or not using a denial of services. I for one, however, think the system in place is moderate to fair in this area of denying service and combatting abusive people.
Yes,I see what you mean now and I agree with your point with the 'No' on the poll. 
The best way to deal with abuse is to first advise the person that their conduct is unaceptable (fair warning) if behavior continues /report <name> then /ignore <name>.
Abusers aren't there for healing they are there to get attention. Honestly I could care less what someone in game says to or about me, they don't know me and it doesn't hurt me. What hurts me is when I lower myself to their level and give them the attention they want.
I can't kick them out of a public place if I deny them my healing services that will only make them hang around longer. I can ignore them and let them know by my avoidance that nothing they say or do effects me in the slightest, if they get too bad my regulars will deal with them.
1.Player cantinas: Have you been to Leppy's? maybe not cause it's on Chilastra but there have got to be some like it off of our server and must be more than one great cantina in each galaxy. I havn't seen them all yet but i'll get on the player shop directory site and make contact with the ones on my server.
There is a reason to go and it will be because that's where the bands better than SW1 exp grind are located.
2. /report: "A little too drastic in some cases, and it can take a while to take effect. Plus, too much reliance on this kind of system will bog down the people running the game."
That was a joke right? That's what the people running the game are getting my money for. They have people (not enough maybe but they're there) solely dedicated to dealing with this function. All they do for their shift is read your /report log and decide what action to take.
It is drastic for some situations, and that's what /addignore is for, or player ban list if you use it. I agree that exclusivly using CSR tickets and /report would be silly for every situation.
3. see above.
4. These lists are not private on my galaxy, 4 names have been added and several PA's have posted links to their list and to screenshots supporting their decision to add someone to that list. Many other names have been called out on the server forum and rejected by the community for lack of evidence or merely saying, that's not enough of a reason to ban someone.
Shopkeepers that I know are in PA's a lot of the time and PA's keep in touch, at least on my server. Nothing wrong with a black market, it is a player economy after all. The point is to remove that griefer from my gaming experience and if he can't shop at the same stores I shop at then I'll run into him less frequently.
I have no problem with "holes" in the player ban list. If you don't want to use it please don't. I choose to and I use it selectively, not everyone is on my list, just the ones I choose not to deal with. A lot of the time I will give a person a chance once to see if they treat me as they have been accused of treating others and if I don't like the way i'm dealt with, at least I had a heads up on which name to look for.
Time is not critical for a player ban list IMO. The ones that need to be removed immediately are taken care of with /report, CSR tickets, etc. that is the intended function of those features. If it takes a while to get a casual griefer on the list, I don't mind.
5. I believe add ignore to be a punishment. Imagine if you are enough of a jerk that everyone in the cantina ignores you. You will leave after two days or a week of it. So what if no one else ignores the griefer? I don't care, I can't hear him. If he does something lewd for me to see that somehow "griefs" me (although I think that might be hard to do) or follows me arround after i've ignored him, that's what the CSR ticket is for. Or go to a park and log off for 10 min. he'll be back at the cantina in 5 or less and you can hop a shuttle to the next cantina.
true, /addignore does not directly affect the other person's game experience. That's why it's so great, I'm not hearing poor behavior, and I'm not participating in poor behavior.
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More about CSR tickets and /report.
SOE has made it clear that they want to make this a family friendly game and community. If we let them know something is inadequate (I don't know if it is yet or not, I havn't needed to use the function), they will do something about it. The CSR's are there for us to use for game issues. Living with a griefer because you don't want to "bog down the people running the game" is your own choice. And it's silly, when I pay up front for a sandwhich with a pickle on it, I take it back and nicely ask for a pickle. It's my money and we had a little bit of a deal there.
KoraJubali wrote:
I've seen some good suggestions and the devs should look into them at the behest of the correspondent. I trust his office. I havn't come up with any myself but when I do I'm sure you'll see them here. Partially the reason is taht I see the current system as rating a 7-8.5 depending on what day it is and how much coffee I drank this morning.
The system in place I refered to was this:
Player cantinas
/report
CSR ticket
player black list
player ban list from shops and buildings
/ignore
these have varying degrees of usefullness and severity of punishment. I would argue that /addignore is a punishment. Especially when combined with a ban list. The truely egregious players are banned by SOE when /reported. e.g. that guy, forget his name that threatened to rape a girl in real life. (he said later that he didn't mean it but in my opinion it doesn't matter if he meant it, it matters if she believed him, IRL saying you will rape a girl is called assault and you go to jail for it.) That was a true griefer to the extreme.
I will put my hope in the CSR ticket and hope the response time gets better. I hear there's something in today's patch to try to help that. Speedier service will make this a more effective tool against unwelcome players in the game, not just the cantina.
Here's where I'm not just thinking of myself:
The player ban list. This works better if we all think of eachother as you suggest CantinaFly, and it's a good suggestion to think of others. A player made ban list has already been started on my server for a handfull of poor players whom we do not welcome in our company. I don't know how many people use this list, I do and I know that the two biggest PA's on the server are sharing theirs with each other with screen shots to provide proof and context. Also has the function of punishing the griefer in this way: he can no longer trade with half of the server (or however many use the list, maybe 90%, maybe 20%). So yeah, you're ignoring him and he's still getting healed, where does he go to spend his credit? No one in town is selling to him so he has to leave town for an hour or go off planet.
Another one I think of for all musicians, not just me:
Player cantinas. These are usefull for denying service. Find one or provide one without a cover charge if needs be and jam away with an audience of your choosing. Make friends with the owner and know the second shift barkeep. Kick the abusive people. Socializing may take time from your jamming but I believe in the case of abusive players and player cantinas, it will pay off.
/addignore, no more abuse to endure. There are other options if you don't want to use this feature or if it is "not punishment enough"
This system currently in place to deny services does not, and should not IMHO, address money. Denial of services should not be a payment mechanism. New gig missions and a gig terminal are coming in the big patch and I'll wait to see what all that adds before I comment on musician money making by missions.
Okay, lets go on down the list:
The system in place I refered to was this:
1. Player cantinas: It sounds like a good idea, but it isn't. I can't see these working for anyone, except on planets that don't have towns. Why would anyone walk into the wilderness to get something they can get in town, for free, without fear of being banned for their own bad behavior? The only people who would go there are you own friends, because they're the only people who would know where it is, unless you plan to run around town spamming the location.
2. /report: A little too drastic in some cases, and it can take a while to take effect. Plus, too much reliance on this kind of system will bog down the people running the game.
3. CSR ticket: See above.
4. player black list/player ban list from shops and buildings: I think you overestimate the number of people using this. 20% of an entire server ought to be a goal, and one that you'll not likely reach. Not to mention the fact that these lists are private. You have to know to ask for them, and know who to ask, if you want a copy of one. Lots of shopkeepers simply won'thave access to this information. Not to mention the "black market" it will create for artisans selling to blackballed characters. Another problem is the time it would take for the updates to the list to be distributed to everyone, given the varying times that people are online, you could have huge holes in your "alliance" that may not be filled for days because a person critical in the chain of information was away on vacation or something. Just maintaining a list like this could turn into a full-time job for someone.
5. /ignore: I fail to see how this is a "punishment". If I slap someone and their response is to simply stand there while I continue to slap them, how is that a punishment? Yes, they're mostly doing these things for attention, and ignoring them could possibly discourage them, but as long as everyone else ISN'T ignoring them while they harass you, they still have an audience. Plus, the kind of person who is anti-social enough to spend money on a game just to annoy other people is likely to be doing it purely for their own entertainment. Unless you do something to them that has a direct, negative effect on their character, you will accomplish nothing.
First of all, it is your own fault if you are only an entertainer and don't have the combat skills to go and run some destroy missions when you want/"need" some money. With basic combat skills and a good weapon you can make 2K+ in a few minutes.
Having said that, what exactly would an entertainer-only character need money for? Dancers would spend the occasional $10k on a new outfit, but that is a one-time expense which should be readily attainable for any dancer worthy of a master-level outfit. Training is cheap because there are so many masters out there already, most of whom will be more than happy to train you for free to get some apprentice points. Instruments are cheap, not to mention the fact that you can still make a killing selling the ones you are able to make - I made over $20k in instrument sales while I was on vacation last week alone, which more than covered the cost of a wind generator and a few harvesters. What else exactly does one "need" to buy as an entertainer?
Everyone has the option and skills points to get combat skills, in fact, you can master music or dance and still have enough points to master any elite profession you want. You could even master music and dance and still have some points to get at least a decent level of combat skills for yourself. If you decide you want to power-level your musician/dance skills, and never leave the cantina,then fine, more power to you, but then suck it up and take the consequences of that... which is that you are dependent upon the charity of others to make a living.
Back on point... Entertainers are providing a service. When someone tips us it is, basically, payment for services rendered. The only difference between an Entertainer and, say, a craftsman who builds you something, is that the craftsman can hold out on you -- "Give me the money, THEN I give you the item." (That's the normal way we do business even in RL -- you pay first, get the service second.) An entertainer is making a public show, and as a result, you are able to obtain the service without paying for it up front. But it is still a service being provided.
Now, just as with tipping a waiter it is up to the recipient of the service to decide how good it was and how much to tip, but it is not charity. You are not "donating to a needy cause." You are engaging in a fair exchange of goods and services.
C
Entertainers are not like artisans and they are not like doctors... entertainers expend nothing but action points to provide healing. Have you tried crafting a measly Stimpack B? They take several components which have to be crafted before work on the stimpack can even begin - it's a pain in the arse which isn't even comparable to sitting around having fun, chatting, playing music and dancing. Artisans, well they obviously expend a lot of materials to make what they do, in fact, they expend thousands upon thousands of materials in practice items which they never see any money for (not even an item is produced when practicing for that matter). I see no connection between an entertainer who gets to hang out, have fun playing music with friends (fun - that is why I play music, how about you all?) and an artisan who spends their entire day, alone, running around to all their harvesting equipment and power generators and clicking together practice items, etc. Artisans and doctors deserve more money than I do as a master musician IMO - they do a lot more work than I had to, but I don't think they get to have as much fun.
Public cantinas are the equivolent of the guy playing his saxophone in the subway station hoping that someone will spare some change so he can buy dinner. Player-owned cantinas are, or at least will be once someone figures out the right formula, the elite and private clubs of SWG. I can tell you there will definitely be a demand for these once people catch on to them, and especially once player cities are in. The player-owned cantinas allow you to kick and ban whomever you want, and even to collect a cover charge. The only catch is you have to get good first or no one will want to come hear you... in other words... more practicing, less complaining. 
KoraJubali wrote:
Let's keep going down the list. And by the way, thanks for taking time to discuss this in detail, even tho I disagree I think everyone will benefit from a review of the issue and perhaps a change from the devs.
1.Player cantinas: Have you been to Leppy's? maybe not cause it's on Chilastra but there have got to be some like it off of our server and must be more than one great cantina in each galaxy. I havn't seen them all yet but i'll get on the player shop directory site and make contact with the ones on my server.
There is a reason to go and it will be because that's where the bands better than SW1 exp grind are located.
2. /report: "A little too drastic in some cases, and it can take a while to take effect. Plus, too much reliance on this kind of system will bog down the people running the game."
That was a joke right? That's what the people running the game are getting my money for. They have people (not enough maybe but they're there) solely dedicated to dealing with this function. All they do for their shift is read your /report log and decide what action to take.
It is drastic for some situations, and that's what /addignore is for, or player ban list if you use it. I agree that exclusivly using CSR tickets and /report would be silly for every situation.
3. see above.
4. These lists are not private on my galaxy, 4 names have been added and several PA's have posted links to their list and to screenshots supporting their decision to add someone to that list. Many other names have been called out on the server forum and rejected by the community for lack of evidence or merely saying, that's not enough of a reason to ban someone.
Shopkeepers that I know are in PA's a lot of the time and PA's keep in touch, at least on my server. Nothing wrong with a black market, it is a player economy after all. The point is to remove that griefer from my gaming experience and if he can't shop at the same stores I shop at then I'll run into him less frequently.
I have no problem with "holes" in the player ban list. If you don't want to use it please don't. I choose to and I use it selectively, not everyone is on my list, just the ones I choose not to deal with. A lot of the time I will give a person a chance once to see if they treat me as they have been accused of treating others and if I don't like the way i'm dealt with, at least I had a heads up on which name to look for.
Time is not critical for a player ban list IMO. The ones that need to be removed immediately are taken care of with /report, CSR tickets, etc. that is the intended function of those features. If it takes a while to get a casual griefer on the list, I don't mind.
5. I believe add ignore to be a punishment. Imagine if you are enough of a jerk that everyone in the cantina ignores you. You will leave after two days or a week of it. So what if no one else ignores the griefer? I don't care, I can't hear him. If he does something lewd for me to see that somehow "griefs" me (although I think that might be hard to do) or follows me arround after i've ignored him, that's what the CSR ticket is for. Or go to a park and log off for 10 min. he'll be back at the cantina in 5 or less and you can hop a shuttle to the next cantina.
true, /addignore does not directly affect the other person's game experience. That's why it's so great, I'm not hearing poor behavior, and I'm not participating in poor behavior.
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More about CSR tickets and /report.
SOE has made it clear that they want to make this a family friendly game and community. If we let them know something is inadequate (I don't know if it is yet or not, I havn't needed to use the function), they will do something about it. The CSR's are there for us to use for game issues. Living with a griefer because you don't want to "bog down the people running the game" is your own choice. And it's silly, when I pay up front for a sandwhich with a pickle on it, I take it back and nicely ask for a pickle. It's my money and we had a little bit of a deal there.
1. If I'm playing a marksman with the goal of running faction missions, why the hell should I care if the band is "better" in some cantina that wants to charge me cash just to watch them? If I wanted a concert, I wouldn't be playing an MMORPG. These supposed reasons for people to go to player cantinas are far-fetched and unlikely. The only people who would go are people who are already paying you now. You won't get any new customers; you'll just inconvenience the ones you have by making them march 2 kilometers into the desert to see you.
2. I still have doubts about the user reporting system, but I suppose only time will tell how useful it really is.
3. ditto.
4. Okay, so they post these lists on their websites...how does someone who just logged into the server know where these websites are? There is no in-game mechanic for distributing this type of information, so the information is essentially private (in that it is not public, in any case). Without some type of in-game support for this sort of information, this solution is limited. And even worse, if you had in-game support for this type of feature, it would create something even worse. Someone could be added to the list and ostracized over something fairly inocuous. I see little to no value in this "scarlet letter" solution of your's.
5. I have no response to this. That is the most naive argument I've ever heard. Log off and go to a park because someone is bothering you isn't just silly, it's unhealthy. You can't just run away from conflict your entire life. The problem with the game right now is that it doesn't give you any options for directly taking care of the problem. I don't mind the lack of total PVP; dueling is fine. But people who start trouble and then duck their duels should be recognizable. Perhaps a rating for the ration of duels you've been challenged to but haven't accepted?
And as for Entertainers vs. Artisans....people seem to keep forgetting that both "practicing" and the use of harvesters are optional. Everytime you "practice", you COULD have been making the real thing. And you can sample all you want for free, and gather enough materials to make pretty much anything. All you really use up is time and mind points....and given how easy it is to set up mining macros (not to mention the fact that you can buy a machine that will do it all FOR YOU), I still maintain that the Artisan professions are the easiest and most profitable professions in the game. Why do you think there are so many of them?
Player houses can be searched for in-game, you just need to have a vendor from what I understand. I don't know the entire process, but I know that I can find my artisan friend under 'armor' on the ctrl-V menu. Also, and again, once player cities are in, the entire city will show up on a map, and I have to believe that you will be able to /find certain buildings there.
As far as the suggestion that players won't frequent player cantinas... you're wrong. They already are visiting them.
I think someone needs to turn in his slitherhorn and go be an artisan.
From reading these posts, it seems that most entertainers are having issues with immature people comming in and being rowdy. There is no way to force that person to leave, so all the patrons and all the performers must put up with it (shunning isn't terribly effective in a game where soloing is a viable solution). What we need is someone with the power to kick people out and ban them on a temporary basis. Basically, you rent the cantina from teh local government, say 1000 cr per hour or some such, for that time frame you have complete control. You can kick, ban, charge a cover fee, etc. This would allowing someone to boot out the folks that are causing real problems.
As for the tipping, well, there isn't a great deal tha twe entertainers can do. All I can suggest is that you make friends with other entertainers and artisans and the medics, and put your own black-list together. (though vendors could be a problem.)
Who cares if they go to someone else to get their service, they aren't around you anymore. Which is what you wanted in the first place.
Oops how could I forget...
"And as for Entertainers vs. Artisans....people seem to keep forgetting that both "practicing" and the use of harvesters are optional. Everytime you "practice", you COULD have been making the real thing. And you can sample all you want for free, and gather enough materials to make pretty much anything. All you really use up is time and mind points....and given how easy it is to set up mining macros (not to mention the fact that you can buy a machine that will do it all FOR YOU), I still maintain that the Artisan professions are the easiest and most profitable professions in the game. Why do you think there are so many of them?"
First of all, you're right... artisans could make the real thing everytime, and then they could destroy it manually after it doesn't sell and get less xp for making it (i.e., like they did before the practice option was put in). You could also sample for free, but unless you were going to afk-sample (i.e., break the rules) you are going to be spending some credits to buy and maintain harvesting equipment. I don't think "people keep forgetting" about these things, but if you know anything about being an artisan you know they really aren't optional past a certain point.
Mining macros? Yea, if you wanna be making ribbed shirts for the next 6 months.
So like I said, you will be expending plenty of materials as an artisan. Whether by destroying, practicing or selling items, you will be expending materials... you will also be expending lots of money on your harvesters, power generators, factories, vendors and your house, which you will need if you want to sell anything priced above 3000 credits. All of these things also require thousands in maintenance a day, and if you don't pay it for a couple of days... *poof* Oh, and let's not forget about resource shifts. You'll need to replace all of your generators and harvesters every week as the resources shift... fun fun fun!
So, profitable? Yea it can be. At this point though you aren't going to bemaking much money until you are master though, since that is the onlystuffmost peoplewant. Easiest in the game? 
LOL! You aren't an artisan are you. Like I said, they earn every credit they get.