Entertainer Archive
Thread: Entertainer Protest Tuesdays Join the Jam for an Entertainer Revamp!
Einhinder
Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:26 pm
#14
i for one am sick to death of this wait and see what they do for us attitude
/cheer warryr
im in and will be posting a link in my galaxy forum
if we just keep waiting there just gonna keep pushing the stuff back we have to make them listen.
/cheer warryr
im in and will be posting a link in my galaxy forum
if we just keep waiting there just gonna keep pushing the stuff back we have to make them listen.
Landlubber
Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:55 pm
#15
Cool, I'll be there. Not on tuesdays I think, butthe band I'm in - Nebula-is playing a street gig most fridays (unless we have another engagement), alternating between Theed and Bestine starports, and we always draw a crowd. So we'll be sure to mention the entertainer protest the next time around 
Karamak
Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:01 pm
#16
they have to add content based on the numbers.
So you are saying that there are more Jedi in the game then Entertainers, Sumgglers (who have been promised a revamp for over a year), BEs, Pistoleers, or any other elite profession? Show me someplace like the cantina in Coronet where you will have 30 or so Jedi hanging out at most times of the day. If your premise was correct the last revamp we would see would be Jedi, instead we are seeing two of them.
Karamak
picklesSW
Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:18 pm
#17
"Our dance moves alone could take a year, they have to do it digitally then put it to real life making it a smoother flow. And to get a good bit of moves done, you're looking at a year peroid; the fact is the are prolly working on it, just can't endulge anyhting yet because it isn't close to being done."
On what basis do you suggest that making new dances (or any other animation for that matter) takes a YEAR to complete, especially since they utilize motion capture? I don't recall anyone in authority ever saying to us that the reason we have received no new content is because it takes an animator a year to produce a dance. Maybe I missed that post.
On what basis do you suggest that making new dances (or any other animation for that matter) takes a YEAR to complete, especially since they utilize motion capture? I don't recall anyone in authority ever saying to us that the reason we have received no new content is because it takes an animator a year to produce a dance. Maybe I missed that post.
Khristen
Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:35 pm
#18
After attending the Entertainer/ID forum at Fan Fest and hearing what the devs had to say about the social classes gave me some new insights into this area of game-play development as a whole. The first thing, and something that I think bears repeating, is that having an entertainer class--or a class that is purely social in it's expertise--is unique to SWG. They're breaking new ground with it, and it's important to realize that mistakes will be made along the way of any new process.
Do the devs realize that there are some serious issues facing entertainers? Most definitely. Do they plan on doing somthing about it? Yes. The Hutt Casino is the first step in adding content to SWG that isn't based on combat abilities that caters to the social classes. The ID revamp was a major step forward as well. Contrary to popular belief by many entertainers, the devs are very much concerned about the AFK issues and the damage it does to the real entertainers. The real problem, though, is that they're not really sure on what the best course of action is. Yes, there have been a zillion posts on the entertainer forums about how the devs could make things better for entertainers. That's the real key, though. There's so much information there that it's almost impossible to sort through key, workable ideas from the flotsam of wild, unrealistic suggestions. They've asked the correspondants to consolodate some ideas for them, and they are listening.
The thing to remember is that they have a ton of their time and resources tied up in Jump to Lightspeed. As was stated in the State of the Game letter, JTL is almost like a separate game in and of itself. And it's also a very necessary part of the Star Wars universe. There's not a whole lot of "stars" in Star Wars right now. And there's not a lot of "war" either, which is why another huge portion of their limited time and resources are tied up into the Combat Balance and GCW revamp. These things are a priority for the game, and not just because the devs decided it was a good thing to do or are ignoring everyone else.
Yes, the wookiees cried and wailed and protested and got Wookiee armor. But you know what? It was coming out already. Those rants didn't make it happen. Perhaps it pushed the timetable a touch, but I really doubt it was an immense impact. The only reason I say that much is because the devs really do want to give the community what it wants. These guys are just as big Star Wars fans as many of the players and being able to work on SWG is like a dream come true for many of them. But they also have the immense responsiblity for doing what is best for the game as a whole, now and in the future. One of the problems, though, is that the perception that the wookiees got "some lovin'" because they pitched a fit and protested. That kind of unconstructive thinking is much more a detriment than a help.
What was asked of the attendees to that entertainer forum by the devs was to work with the correspondants on the forums. Make constructive posts and ask to have them sticky-d when appropriate. The devs and TH are in daily communication with the forum correspondants. They don't have the time to read through every category (do any of us?) because they are concentrating on making SWG better. They focus their attentions on the correspondant forums in many cases because it's a more concise way to get information.
I remember hearing that question (the one about Force skills) at Fan Fest. My impression of the answer was that it was an accidental oversight on their part. Not the first, and I'm sure not the last. There is so many huge changes going on with the Jedi/Force revamp. And the devs and SWG staff are truly committed to making it right. That's why so many resources and testing is tied up in it. They really want to test and push and see what problems are out there before it gets rolled out to live. Yes, they have a deadline, but I truly believe that they are doing everything in their power to make sure it's ready and not rolled out half-baked. While there are plenty of people who are vocal in their objection to rolling things out that might have problems with it, those same people would be the ones griping the loudest if they were late on a publish.
When you make changes to code in something as broad-scale as SWG, there will be things that you can't forsee. And everytime you fix one thing, something else goes wrong. I've run into this so many times with my small, relatively uncomplicated webpage. You try to make a small, "easy" tweak and end up breaking three other systems. And you may never find out exactly why it went wrong or how you fixed it. While logically it should be, coding is not an exact science. It's hard to keep things working properly with only one person involved; I can't imagine what it would be like to have several people working on things that are supposed to mesh together!
Now I will say that this gathering is a good thing for entertainers, but not for the reasons it's being presented for. In the "old days" entertainers were not AFK (or if they were it was rare), they actually gathered in the cantinas to talk and have a good time, and the cantinas (or at least some of them) would be packed with "visitors". Did the game change or did the players? Yes, the hologrind introduced a ton of AFK bots that were only going to be around long enough to master and move on, but every profession had this. The real problem is the huge number of people who think this is a good thing. Entertainer-bots "staff" the major cantinas as a "convienience" to other players, people use alts to make an entertainer so they can heal their battle fatigue without having to "bother" with a real entertainer.
The entertainer community (meaning those that are actually playing and not the AFK or bots) is very much like the role-play community. So many want to say they are overlooked and ignored and want content added to them. What so many forget is that these are the very professions that should be creating their own content. There is no reason that they can't make their own place in the galaxy. No one is going to do it for them, nor should they. The purpose of an entertainer is to entertain others. They have to do the work. Someone else may write the songs or choreograph the dance, but it's the job of the entertainer to make it happen. Lazy entertainers, those who wait around for someone to spoon-feed it, don't last very long or at least don't get very far. It's the ones that create a demand for their abilities that succeed. And entertaining is work. It may seem easy to sing notes off a page or perform a series of movements, but there is an incredible amount of training that goes into a good musician. I've spent 20 years working on and training in music in one form or another....and I still have a long way to go. And in RL I'm guilty of the same thing I've stated about many entertainers in-game...I haven't created much of a demand for my abilities. I'm good, but unless people know it there will never be a demand for my abilities. I could become a master, but unless people hear me no one will know it.
Moving outside of the cantina for awhile and into the starports and public areas may be a very good thing. You don't do something like that for the xp or the buffs or what have you. Do it so that people see you, know you're there, and decide that there is a whole, social world that they are missing. It's not the devs minds that need to be changed...it's the players. Ultimately, it's the fellow players that are going to make entertainers "useful" for more than just buffs and healing battle fatigue. There's a mindset that needs changing more than anything. New features won't make that happen alone.
Do the devs realize that there are some serious issues facing entertainers? Most definitely. Do they plan on doing somthing about it? Yes. The Hutt Casino is the first step in adding content to SWG that isn't based on combat abilities that caters to the social classes. The ID revamp was a major step forward as well. Contrary to popular belief by many entertainers, the devs are very much concerned about the AFK issues and the damage it does to the real entertainers. The real problem, though, is that they're not really sure on what the best course of action is. Yes, there have been a zillion posts on the entertainer forums about how the devs could make things better for entertainers. That's the real key, though. There's so much information there that it's almost impossible to sort through key, workable ideas from the flotsam of wild, unrealistic suggestions. They've asked the correspondants to consolodate some ideas for them, and they are listening.
The thing to remember is that they have a ton of their time and resources tied up in Jump to Lightspeed. As was stated in the State of the Game letter, JTL is almost like a separate game in and of itself. And it's also a very necessary part of the Star Wars universe. There's not a whole lot of "stars" in Star Wars right now. And there's not a lot of "war" either, which is why another huge portion of their limited time and resources are tied up into the Combat Balance and GCW revamp. These things are a priority for the game, and not just because the devs decided it was a good thing to do or are ignoring everyone else.
Yes, the wookiees cried and wailed and protested and got Wookiee armor. But you know what? It was coming out already. Those rants didn't make it happen. Perhaps it pushed the timetable a touch, but I really doubt it was an immense impact. The only reason I say that much is because the devs really do want to give the community what it wants. These guys are just as big Star Wars fans as many of the players and being able to work on SWG is like a dream come true for many of them. But they also have the immense responsiblity for doing what is best for the game as a whole, now and in the future. One of the problems, though, is that the perception that the wookiees got "some lovin'" because they pitched a fit and protested. That kind of unconstructive thinking is much more a detriment than a help.
What was asked of the attendees to that entertainer forum by the devs was to work with the correspondants on the forums. Make constructive posts and ask to have them sticky-d when appropriate. The devs and TH are in daily communication with the forum correspondants. They don't have the time to read through every category (do any of us?) because they are concentrating on making SWG better. They focus their attentions on the correspondant forums in many cases because it's a more concise way to get information.
I remember hearing that question (the one about Force skills) at Fan Fest. My impression of the answer was that it was an accidental oversight on their part. Not the first, and I'm sure not the last. There is so many huge changes going on with the Jedi/Force revamp. And the devs and SWG staff are truly committed to making it right. That's why so many resources and testing is tied up in it. They really want to test and push and see what problems are out there before it gets rolled out to live. Yes, they have a deadline, but I truly believe that they are doing everything in their power to make sure it's ready and not rolled out half-baked. While there are plenty of people who are vocal in their objection to rolling things out that might have problems with it, those same people would be the ones griping the loudest if they were late on a publish.
When you make changes to code in something as broad-scale as SWG, there will be things that you can't forsee. And everytime you fix one thing, something else goes wrong. I've run into this so many times with my small, relatively uncomplicated webpage. You try to make a small, "easy" tweak and end up breaking three other systems. And you may never find out exactly why it went wrong or how you fixed it. While logically it should be, coding is not an exact science. It's hard to keep things working properly with only one person involved; I can't imagine what it would be like to have several people working on things that are supposed to mesh together!
Now I will say that this gathering is a good thing for entertainers, but not for the reasons it's being presented for. In the "old days" entertainers were not AFK (or if they were it was rare), they actually gathered in the cantinas to talk and have a good time, and the cantinas (or at least some of them) would be packed with "visitors". Did the game change or did the players? Yes, the hologrind introduced a ton of AFK bots that were only going to be around long enough to master and move on, but every profession had this. The real problem is the huge number of people who think this is a good thing. Entertainer-bots "staff" the major cantinas as a "convienience" to other players, people use alts to make an entertainer so they can heal their battle fatigue without having to "bother" with a real entertainer.
The entertainer community (meaning those that are actually playing and not the AFK or bots) is very much like the role-play community. So many want to say they are overlooked and ignored and want content added to them. What so many forget is that these are the very professions that should be creating their own content. There is no reason that they can't make their own place in the galaxy. No one is going to do it for them, nor should they. The purpose of an entertainer is to entertain others. They have to do the work. Someone else may write the songs or choreograph the dance, but it's the job of the entertainer to make it happen. Lazy entertainers, those who wait around for someone to spoon-feed it, don't last very long or at least don't get very far. It's the ones that create a demand for their abilities that succeed. And entertaining is work. It may seem easy to sing notes off a page or perform a series of movements, but there is an incredible amount of training that goes into a good musician. I've spent 20 years working on and training in music in one form or another....and I still have a long way to go. And in RL I'm guilty of the same thing I've stated about many entertainers in-game...I haven't created much of a demand for my abilities. I'm good, but unless people know it there will never be a demand for my abilities. I could become a master, but unless people hear me no one will know it.
Moving outside of the cantina for awhile and into the starports and public areas may be a very good thing. You don't do something like that for the xp or the buffs or what have you. Do it so that people see you, know you're there, and decide that there is a whole, social world that they are missing. It's not the devs minds that need to be changed...it's the players. Ultimately, it's the fellow players that are going to make entertainers "useful" for more than just buffs and healing battle fatigue. There's a mindset that needs changing more than anything. New features won't make that happen alone.
Landwarrior
Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:00 pm
#19
I dont see why you even bother protesting. Why do I say this?
Well from day one this game was screwed.
They are revamping the entire game because they didnt do a good enough job in the first place
When they do fix something they break a ton of other crap
Not much thought or effort put forth in the first place nor during the1-2 yrs this game has been out
Toooo many crybabies running around with exploits
The devs let combat medics slip the 75% pvp dmg nerf plus made it so they can throw firther then anyone can shoot. Then they wont throw in a hotfix to apply the 75% dmg nerf to stop all the players from quitting. I have had several of my friends quit because of this one in particular and Im not far behind them.
I am not trying to grip at this post Its jus all the crap that goes on and the devs are revamping instead of fixing. If its not broke they will fix it.
On top of all that who jus loves the awesome support of the csr's when a dev created bug eats 1 Million units of your resources or a vendors eats a weapon or some armor that cost u millions and they say oops this is a known issue but we still arent gonna replace it.
My personal opinion the devs and csrs need to be revamped or replaced
JonnyAGFF
Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:10 pm
#20
I myself am an entertainer and dont think that the protest should go ahead. We have enough skills as it is and do not need force enhancements. Force powers should concentrate on crafting and combat. The Devs arn't ignoring us. They are not omnipotet as some people may think and dont need the extra pressure of demanding players. New content will come when it comes. Don't be so impatient.
- Hammy
Werdup
Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:18 pm
#21
ok...
the games been out less then a year... change takes time...
you think you got it bad? i suggest you go read up on some other professions who have it much much worse...
the games been out less then a year... change takes time...
you think you got it bad? i suggest you go read up on some other professions who have it much much worse...
Shiznat9000
Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:22 pm
#22
Karamak wrote:
they have to add content based on the numbers.
So you are saying that there are more Jedi in the game then Entertainers, Sumgglers (who have been promised a revamp for over a year), BEs, Pistoleers, or any other elite profession? Show me someplace like the cantina in Coronet where you will have 30 or so Jedi hanging out at most times of the day. If your premise was correct the last revamp we would see would be Jedi, instead we are seeing two of them.
Karamak
There will be more Jedi then all the ents, smugglers, BEs, and pistols put together. In publish 10 everyone will have access to the FS trees right away, and all the people who have done 15+ professions and then gave up trying to unlock will all have Jedi within a few weeks. So you will see groups of 30 Jedi eventually, but they wanted to fix the profession in pub 9 before giving everyone access.
Havok3060
Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:27 pm
#23
*Starts a protest aginst 90% of the entertainer population for being AFK for hours on end*
AlaManQ5
Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:07 pm
#25
Entertainers (Musicians and Dancers alike) are the lifeblood of the entire Combat-based portion of SWG.
Battle Fatigue and Mind Wounds impact the way each and every combat profession works. Without anyone to heal BF or Mind Wounds, battle in SWG would stop completely. And to alleviate HAM costs, Minds buffs from these influential Entertainers were introduced. Without these, the population of Fencer's and Rifleman would dwindle in PVP do to a lack of sufficient Mind points.
And yet, Entertainers are *expected* to be there for the Combat-happy masses, to be their healer slaves for their wounds and BF. We don't get paid to do it, heck sometimes we don't even get thanked. And to top it all off, Entertainers have a lack of sufficient content to make such treatment worthwhile.
Now, I see that an Entertainer Quest is being tested on TC. It seems similar to a glorified Entertainer mission than anything close to unique and exciting content akin to such places like the Corvette and DWB.
And Wookies, they protested similar treatment with the armor situation of theirs. And their collective wookiee roar was heard by the Devs and they were given wookiee armor.
Its sad that the playerbase must threaten a development team in order to get changed or fixed.
But the fact of the matter is, if Entertainer isn't made fun, NO one will ever want to be one, and then the Developers would just put in NPC entertainers and completely wipe all Entertainer classes. We do not want that.
I mean, we could just as easily charge each and every listener in-game for a simple mind wound heal or BF heal. Hmm, maybe sell Mind Buffs for 10k like Master Doctors do for buffs. Then we'd get a cry fest from players who can't easily get healed due to the cost.
The voice of the Entertainer collective (and other professions) must be heard and answered.
kevrock1
Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:13 pm
#26
The simple truth of any MMORPG is that the high-end players lead the development of new content. Those at the end-game, which in SWG are Jedi & the GCW, are what will get the most overt attention.
Look at the recent weapon additions - who got new weapons in the recent patches? Themepark revamp added new pistol schem and two DoT 2hand weapons. Geo caves added a new pistol, new rifle, and the scythe. Corvette added a new rifle. DWB added a new pistol, a new VK, and a 2hand axe.
What are probably the most populated combat prof? Riflemen andpistoleers, swordsmen and TKM. Why no new carbines - when's the last time you saw a master carbineer?
Ents have the luxury to make their own content since they are a social class. Combatants can't create new static content to destroy. The best we can do is organize PVP, which the last time we did that on a mass scale took down all of Bria.
When I read the question about force sensitive entertainer skills I had the same reaction as the dev - I hadn't considered because the two don't immediately correlate.
- Nivik
Message Edited by kevrock1 on 06-14-2004 04:14 PM