Entertainer Archive
Thread: BuffBots, are they really the problem?
Krupskaya wrote:
Drygo wrote:
In any effective debate there has to be a starting point. You have to both agree on at least one premise. It's like most religious arguments. Take homosexuality for example. Bible thumpers are often anti-gay because of God. Well, there are a whole lot of people who don't believe in God in the first place so any argument that an evangelical Christian makes is going to seem completely and wholly irrelevant to the person who does not believe in God. There's no possible way to have an argument or a debate.
Similarly, I find your use of the real world economic modelto becompletely and wholly irrelevant to the ingame model in regards to your view of competition. Perhaps if you can explain to me why I should use the real world model as an example then we can debate. If not all I can do is say, "nope, you're wrong," and you can do is say "nope, you're wrong." And, we're stuck because we cannot find a basic premise from which to debate because I wholly reject yours, just like somebody who doesn't believe in God wholly rejects any argument based on God's existence.
In other words, convince me that your initial assumption is correct, then I will debate you.
Then distill the issue into a matter of argumentative common ground. The fact is that you openly, plainly, blatantly lied by claiming I used BuffBots. You had no evidence on which to premise such a preposterous claim -- moreover, I have always preferred to use ATK Entertainers and admitted as much on any number of threads. Nonetheless, you lied and then fled from the thread in a sanctimonious fury that I had dared catch you in a thoughtless slander on my character.
Until you apologize for this unjustified assumption, then you remain an unrepentant liar. Moreover, you now insist that I prove that SWG was desired to be a free-market economy rather than the command-and-control economy you apparently favor, despite the fact that the Developers have constantly insisted they wanted things to be player-controlled. Is it just coincidental, then, that a T-21 can only be purchased from another player (whether through trade window or, yes, a vendor that still operates while the proprietor is AFK?) Consumers were designed to have choice in SWG. And the mere fact that you have so little respect for their ability to make a rational choice does not signify the Developers intended otherwise.
/sigh
I didn't lie, I made an assumption. Huge difference. I apologize for making an untrue assumption. That does not take away from the fact you have still been nothing but insulting here. How about you apologize for that? 
Also, you still haven't convinced me. I don't believe the developers intended that the Cantinas be overrun with afk mind buffers. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're very much against it. However, I do believe that there are some game mechanics, such as vendors which were specifically put into place for realism's sake. Of course there are stores you can go buy things from. Makes sense. Buffbots don't. And, I don't believe the developers intended this. I don't believe buffbots are player controlled, because, well, there's no player there controlling them. It's not playing. Again, I reject your premise.
AnakinSWG wrote:
Krupskaya wrote:
Until you apologize for this unjustified assumption, then you remain an unrepentant liar.
Anotherarrogant attack on personal character? You're better than this. What's the line of reasoning behind the defensive "you're nothing but a liar" approach? I can only guess, but that would involve psycho-analysis, something which I have no certification of any sort for.
Why do you feel so defensive, Krupskaya?
The attacks on your personal character have been extremely tame. You're reading quite a bit into what others are saying.
Could there possibly be a reason for this?
Message Edited by AnakinSWG on 08-01-2004 12:30 PM
AnakinSWG wrote:
I did no such thing.
Krupskaya wrote:
It's very simple, Til.
YOU LIED by stating that I use BuffBots, whereas I do NOT.
Someone who LIES may be branded a LIAR.
If you dislike being branded a LIAR, then I suggest you apologize for LYING about my practices.
AnakinSWG wrote:
Perhaps you should be apologizing to me for labelling me with the title of liar on the grounds of the use of the single nondescript word "your"?
Moreover, you openly admit that you do not trust the playerbase to make responsible choices on this issue. Again evincing the fact that the ATK Entertainer community has alienated consumers with incessant, melodramatic whining about what was once a fringe practice and is now predominating.
I respond: I do not see a lack of trust about the playerbase on the part of ATK entertainers as being evidence that the entertainer community has alienated itself. Most professions display concern about the choices players in other professions would make if given choices on how to interact with that profession. Doctors for example used to complain about not getting tipped for wound heals. Other professions now complain that we doctors refuse to be around for wound healing. After some observation, I would conclude that the driving force behind the majority of players when making choices is nottoincrease the overall enjoyment that other players have, but to maximixe their own enjoyment without regard to the feelings of others. That is, they want to be "uber". I recently read a post on my profession forum about things Doctors find fun. Over half the posts talked about ways doctors would announce that they had the buffs others wanted,shortly beforegleefully denying others the opportunity to purchase those buffs. Are these the sort of people you expect to make a responsible choice, let alone a rational one?
Besides, why should anyone trust the playerbase to make responsible choices when not all of the playerbase are trusted to make responsible choices in real life. Many of the player base are not OLD enough to do so. They are not old enough to vote, drink, drive a car, or even see a scary movie. The game, last I checked, was rated for teenagers. Yes, still there. So when it comes to making changes to the design of the game and the balance of the game, perhaps we should not trust that every playerwill make the choicethat a mature adult player would make.
By the way, in my posts against buffbots, I am not melodramatic or whining. I'll agree I'm incessant becasue I am incapable of letting someone else have the last word and I love to debate.But usually I'm right. That's a joke sir or madam, laugh.
Ahmed wrote: You unabashedly admit that you have no confidence in the ability of SWG players to make intelligent, rational choices, and then seem outraged when they no longer patronize you? Please. I have tipped up to 80k for an Entertainer Buff and over 10k for regular Battle Fatigue Healing, and, honestly, every whimper and whine on these forums makes me and hundreds of others less inclined to patronize live Entertainers. At least BuffBots don't bite the hand that feeds them.
I respond: They aren't trying to bite the hands that feed them so much as they are trying to bite the hands that are slapping them about the face in a silly manner.
You use live entertainers but many players starting this game don't even know there are such things anymore, some know but could care less and actualy prefer to use bots for a variety of reasons, including sadly, the enjoyment that comes from demeaning another person (just like the docs who play games with those wanting buffs).
I know I keep using this example, but many players shared information about the shuttle repair exploit even though it was against the terms of the EULA to do so. Even though sharing that information hurt the game economy by allowing players to avoid moneysinks and to support artisans. They did so even after the patch notes reminded us that this was an exploit.Do you still believethat we as a player base will always make rationalchoices that lead to the greatest good for thegreatest number? Luckily, the developers realize they are the ones designing the game and decicing what choices we should and should not be allowed to make since their goal is to provide a game that is fun for most people. If the developersgave us the choice to type /godmode you can bet many people would, then quit the game because they were bored.
You may feel alienated by reading these posts, but I feel sympathy.We can't just wait for the player base to make rational choices and expect everyone to be happy. My rational choice may be to withold the doctor buffs I have even though that means you areworse off for my decision. Even if I may be the only doctor on the planet or the server for the next two hours. Now you may propose to solve that by dropping the professionyou care about to get doctor, buying an alt orpaying someone else to run a bot, but Is that a good game to play? Some players are capable of making rational choices, but that is of little help when the design of the game does not give them rational choices to make. Wouldn't you prefer a world where you did NOT need the buff in the first place? I think we have that but that's another discussion. Fact is, most people are buff dependant.
The only question should be what type of changes will satisfy the needs that entertainers have without creating too much hardship on nonentertainers. All this talk of "arrogance" and "alienation" is meaningless and unhelpful. But if you wish to call me this, go ahead. Playing a doctor I'm used to it by now. Just throw in greedy and I'll feel right at home.
Drygo wrote:
/sigh
I didn't lie, I made an assumption. Huge difference. I apologize for making an untrue assumption. That does not take away from the fact you have still been nothing but insulting here. How about you apologize for that?
Also, you still haven't convinced me. I don't believe the developers intended that the Cantinas be overrun with afk mind buffers. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're very much against it. However, I do believe that there are some game mechanics, such as vendors which were specifically put into place for realism's sake. Of course there are stores you can go buy things from. Makes sense. Buffbots don't. And, I don't believe the developers intended this. I don't believe buffbots are player controlled, because, well, there's no player there controlling them. It's not playing. Again, I reject your premise.
It's very simple, Til. "My BuffBots" states that BuffBots are mine. They are not mine. I do not use them; I do not associate with them. Consequently, you lied. Otherwise, you are now justifying your lie by blithely stating, "I attributed the possessive to your support of buffbots merely because you support their existence". Well, that's a happy concession. You misled the community and slandered me because you disagreed with my point, namely, that BuffBots have a right to exist. I'm sure that makes us all feel a lot better.
AnakinSWG wrote:
Nowhere did I explicitly state that you use buffbots, Krupskaya. I attributed the possessive to your support of buffbots merely because you support their existence. Once again, I fail to see your point. And once again, I take offense to the labels you have placed on me and the assumption that I myself am lying to the community about your involvement with buffbots.
Message Edited by AnakinSWG on 08-01-2004 12:30 PM
Padtai wrote:
I really do love to argue and I can't let this conversation go. Yet again, I post. Community Elder, here I come.
Ahmed wrote:
You provide a service of which consumers may partake.
Moreover, you openly admit that you do not trust the playerbase to make responsible choices on this issue. Again evincing the fact that the ATK Entertainer community has alienated consumers with incessant, melodramatic whining about what was once a fringe practice and is now predominating.
I respond: I do not see a lack of trust about the playerbase on the part of ATK entertainers as being evidence that the entertainer community has alienated itself. Most professions display concern about the choices players in other professions would make if given choices on how to interact with that profession. Doctors for example used to complain about not getting tipped for wound heals. Other professions now complain that we doctors refuse to be around for wound healing. After some observation, I would conclude that the driving force behind the majority of players when making choices is nottoincrease the overall enjoyment that other players have, but to maximixe their own enjoyment without regard to the feelings of others. That is, they want to be "uber". I recently read a post on my profession forum about things Doctors find fun. Over half the posts talked about ways doctors would announce that they had the buffs others wanted,shortly beforegleefully denying others the opportunity to purchase those buffs. Are these the sort of people you expect to make a responsible choice, let alone a rational one?
In other words, you think the playerbase is composed of cheap, self-obsessed simpletons who play a MMORPG only for it's single-player aspects. Counterintuitive? Yes. Insulting as hell? Yes. But, apparently, you also believe that demeaning the playerbase constantly does NOT make them more reluctant to patronize ATK Entertainers. Which is, again, sublimely counterintuitive. They can be slandered incessantly, but their choices are out of self-interest, not indignation at being so maligned! A blank check for you to bitterly attack the community without being held accountable for the results of your actions.
Besides, why should anyone trust the playerbase to make responsible choices when not all of the playerbase are trusted to make responsible choices in real life. Many of the player base are not OLD enough to do so. They are not old enough to vote, drink, drive a car, or even see a scary movie. The game, last I checked, was rated for teenagers. Yes, still there. So when it comes to making changes to the design of the game and the balance of the game, perhaps we should not trust that every playerwill make the choicethat a mature adult player would make.
So YOU know better than ALL of them. Being too young, stupid or indolent to direct their finances, it is only just that the Developers allow YOU to do it for them. Perhaps we should register players for basic, select, premium and elite accounts based on, say, intelligence tests or the dimensions of their skulls IRL? After all, it only makes SENSE that people play a game to be controlled by their self-appointed betters. Right?
By the way, in my posts against buffbots, I am not melodramatic or whining. I'll agree I'm incessant becasue I am incapable of letting someone else have the last word and I love to debate.But usually I'm right. That's a joke sir or madam, laugh.
Ahmed wrote: You unabashedly admit that you have no confidence in the ability of SWG players to make intelligent, rational choices, and then seem outraged when they no longer patronize you? Please. I have tipped up to 80k for an Entertainer Buff and over 10k for regular Battle Fatigue Healing, and, honestly, every whimper and whine on these forums makes me and hundreds of others less inclined to patronize live Entertainers. At least BuffBots don't bite the hand that feeds them.
I respond: They aren't trying to bite the hands that feed them so much as they are trying to bite the hands that are slapping them about the face in a silly manner.
The players of Star Wars Galaxies are not your chattel. If they wish, they may patronize you, and if they believe their money is best spent otherwise, then they may not. I'm sure the availability of cheap, high quality Vasarian Brandy on the vendors of currently AFK Chefs undercuts your profitability by reducing the demand for Mind Buffs. Perhaps you'd like to eliminate that suspect class, too?
You use live entertainers but many players starting this game don't even know there are such things anymore, some know but could care less and actualy prefer to use bots for a variety of reasons, including sadly, the enjoyment that comes from demeaning another person (just like the docs who play games with those wanting buffs).
More stereotyping: now we have the public as the benighted 'n00blet', confused about what the game offers and led down the dark path to indulging the BuffBot. I guess this demands another kind, patrimonial solution: that the 'n00blet' be made into your chattel, and all control over his finances divested unto you, lest he misdirect them.
I know I keep using this example, but many players shared information about the shuttle repair exploit even though it was against the terms of the EULA to do so. Even though sharing that information hurt the game economy by allowing players to avoid moneysinks and to support artisans. They did so even after the patch notes reminded us that this was an exploit.Do you still believethat we as a player base will always make rationalchoices that lead to the greatest good for thegreatest number? Luckily, the developers realize they are the ones designing the game and decicing what choices we should and should not be allowed to make since their goal is to provide a game that is fun for most people. If the developersgave us the choice to type /godmode you can bet many people would, then quit the game because they were bored.
There will always be deviants. However, many in the Entertainer Community are using such extreme examples to degrade the vast majority of players and argue that they should no longer be entitled to direct their finances independently. Effectively, your point is that people are stupid and should not be trusted, whereas the state of your finances demands that their assets be confiscated and redistributed as necessary via the abolition of BuffBots. Those who consider themselves so very elite would do well to themselves patronize a single-player game, where the much-dreaded, malevolent community of children, miscreants and n00blets is finally "muted".
You may feel alienated by reading these posts, but I feel sympathy.We can't just wait for the player base to make rational choices and expect everyone to be happy. My rational choice may be to withold the doctor buffs I have even though that means you areworse off for my decision. Even if I may be the only doctor on the planet or the server for the next two hours. Now you may propose to solve that by dropping the professionyou care about to get doctor, buying an alt orpaying someone else to run a bot, but Is that a good game to play? Some players are capable of making rational choices, but that is of little help when the design of the game does not give them rational choices to make. Wouldn't you prefer a world where you did NOT need the buff in the first place? I think we have that but that's another discussion. Fact is, most people are buff dependant.
Actually, I appreciate your points. You are distilling it into a very simple, easily digestable conflict: those who trust the players, and those who do not. I don't mean that facetiously: it constitutes the same struggle between optimist and pessimist that has raged throughout history, especially the 20th century. And either side has ample evidence to support it. Really, I'd be glad were the discussion elevated to this level, rather than mired in lies about whether or not I patronize BuffBots.
The only question should be what type of changes will satisfy the needs that entertainers have without creating too much hardship on nonentertainers. All this talk of "arrogance" and "alienation" is meaningless and unhelpful. But if you wish to call me this, go ahead. Playing a doctor I'm used to it by now. Just throw in greedy and I'll feel right at home.
You've essentially argued that non-Entertainers are too stupid to make a rational choice. Consequently, I propose we should round them up, confiscate their assets, delete their accounts and deport them to Siberia.
