Entertainer Archive

about doc buffbots

in my opinion is not that people prefer them because live one are better

many people go to the doc with shortest line whitout bothering to much if the buff is 2100 or 2400

i think that maindifferences are

1) the buffing macros are waymore difficult to do, for entertainer buffs you just need very basic macro knowledge, for doc ones is not to simple

(least important)

2) space, to do a single full buff you need 6 items, that are 6 items in inventory and 6 on the toolbar, is it true that you can make around 20 buffs with them, but probably 10x20 will be the max number of buffs you can do, so 200 buffs

3) costs doc buffs are not free, while entertainer buffbots have net profit of 100% is not the same for a docboot, with paks that range around 150k for a set of 6 paks, so 20 buffs the net profit for 200 buffs is around 500k, is quite clear that if 50%of customers chose not to pay you or give you less than the 10k you are asking you can easilly lose money. also probably is not too difficult to buff yourself if no one group with you so the number of 200 buffs will probably be lower.

4) there is not so much need of docs... docs are quite a common profession, as a good side one for combatants (eg tka/doc is quite common template), so is really easy to know some docs or at least to master it, as it will become usefull both for healing and buffs, entertainer is not like that... it don't add anything to combat for a char, is a profession devoted to others.

for these reasons i don't think that docbots and entertainerbots can be compared, they are really different, and even the need of them is different

page 2 or 3 pP

"Incorrect, they DO have this ability and DO use it. But people PREFER a live doctor because their buffs are more powerful."

Actually this is an incorrect assumption. Doctors use bivoli, a food, to increase the buff that is applied by up to 25%. Now there may be some docbots that do not use the bivoli, but there is no reason why the macro could not be set up to in fact waste a bunch of bivoli as part of the buffbot service (other than it is not an efficient way to do things). If you have eaten bivoli, you can't eat more of it until the effects wear off so someone could calculate how much they use and figure that in as a cost of doing business by bot.

Live doctors tend to be able to operate in locations that are more convenient than AFK doctors, as most afk doctors are parked in houses to ensure payment. I heard a rumor of a docbot using third party software to monitor tips (how that's possible beats me), but that of course is currently an exploit. So this makes the situation more tolerable to be a live doctor because we can also diagnose and heal just the wounds that need healing in additon to providing buffs. The current macro system makes creating a docbot fairly difficult, which is the only reason we do not see more docbots and more players actually invest the skill points to do nothing but buff themselves.

Giving live entertainers a similar ability to provide better buffs through consuming food (such as changing the drink thingy they have to work like bivoli) might be one way to encourage people to choose live players, but as I said before, do we really need even stronger buffs in the game? Maybe if it increased the duration of the buff that would be a better thing as the afkbots would be less likely to waste the drink and most would not use it.

I think we can come up with a better solution than that though.

Besides many doctors, while they enjoy the huge lines for buffing because of the money it brings, don't actually enjoy how tedious running lines 50 people long has become. I'd hate to see entertrainers thrown into dealing with this. There has to be a better way (other than buffbots) to ease out the need people have for buffs and the supply.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

I don't have time to color code and block, so hope you can follow what I'm trying to say here. Bottom line--we need options people, not more finger pointing and us vs them kind of thinking.

---

Padtai wrote:

"Incorrect, they DO have this ability and DO use it. But people PREFER a live doctor because their buffs are more powerful."

Actually this is an incorrect assumption.

Its not an assumption, I have a doc

So why wouldn't it be an assumption? Have you made a docbut and proven that it is impossible to make it deliver a buff as good as a live entertainer? I said its difficult but can be done, perhaps not for hours on end (but I could swear I read some post with a way around that but maybe I just recall wrong). I could be wrong as I have not tried to run a docbot, but have only read posts out of curiosity to see what people do. There are many posts explaining how on our doc forum.

Doctors use bivoli, a food, to increase the buff that is applied by up to 25%. Now there may be some docbots that do not use the bivoli, but there is no reason why the macro could not be set up to in fact waste a bunch of bivoli as part of the buffbot service (other than it is not an efficient way to do things). If you have eaten bivoli, you can't eat more of it until the effects wear off so someone could calculate how much they use and figure that in as a cost of doing business by bot.

If a doc were to put in a bivoli macro button slot he would lose more money than he makes. Some bots are run by guilds and do not charge for the service because the bot is to help guildies out. The money lost is not a huge concern to these players. Because as I said, people prefer live doctors. And here is why...

There is no current macro that enables a droid to be recharged. So once the battery wears out that bonus is gone. Docbots lose a huge bonus without a droid.

I did read a thread about a droid recharge macro, but who's to say someone can't check on their bot at intervals to make sure that is running at full bonus?It is not the "liveness" of the doc that provides a benefit except in so far as a live doctor may be more likely to have done the steps to ensure the most powerful buff.

But either way we're arguing about insignificant points, the main fact is that yes, doc is harder to macro so live doctors have on average more appeal than docbots, where this is not the case for a live entertainer vs an AFK one.

The current macro system makes creating a docbot fairly difficult, which is the only reason we do not see more docbots and more players actually invest the skill points to do nothing but buff themselves.

Incorrect, it is quite simple.The ones I've seen look to be more complicated because of the whole target the person and the requirement to "restock" the doc. Not necessarily saying the coding is difficult,but the entire process of operating the bot takes more steps.Docbots just lose money by using bivoli and cannot use a macro'd droid battery recharge. I agree that's true.

So people prefer not to use them, that is why you dont see more. They are most useful for guilds where money is not the issue. There is also no way in an NPC city to insure payment and since docs use resources (that are difficult to come by) to buff they wont take the chance of getting stiffed.I agreed that live docs could operate in starports where afk ones could not unless they had some really sophisticated third party software going.

As an entertainer you cannot "lose" money, you have no resources to use when buffing. There is nothing an ATK can offer a player (that majority of combatants want) that an AFK bot cannot provide. I agree with that.

In fact, in general, I don't disagree with you. All I said was that if someone were dedicated enough to do it, they could design a docbot that would more than satisfy the needs of some players in a way that would leave a live doctor with little advantage. It would be far less likely to happen than someone designing an AFK entertainer that would be preferred to an ATK one.

This needs to be addressed as there will still be buffbots even if they decide to do away with the looping macro.

I think we can come up with a better solution than that though.

Then do it instead of crying for a nerf that will hurt other professions abilities to perform.

I am not "crying for a nerf". I have suggested a few things to help the situation and encouraged others to do the same. Why am I alone responsible for generating an idea--where are YOUR ideas? Mine are on the inconcept forum. Yes they are heavily slanted to getting rid of AFKplay but I'm open to other suggestions. If we both have posted ideas, great, but why must you make an accusatory statement that I am "crying" for a nerf, when in fact I have only tried to outline some issues many people (again and again) overlook (and you did indeed admit to having overlooked whether increasing atk buff strength was a good idea). Its all too easy to point fingers at people as a way to try to win an argument because actually thinking about the issues is I know more diffcult than just saying "you're a nerf herder". Which is very star-warsy to say since Leia says that to Hans but that's just a joke I insert gratuitously to lighten your mood.

I care nothing much for"winning" the argument, rather than provoking some real thought on the part of those who have not yet thought about the issue from other than their own perspective, what care I if you say I'm crying for a nerf? I'm asking for change. Call it a "cry" for a "nerf" if you want, but I do not deny I want change. Do you really think things are wonderful the way they are now?

Besides many doctors, while they enjoy the huge lines for buffing because of the money it brings, don't actually enjoy how tedious running lines 50 people long has become.

I have never seen a buff line 50 people long, at the most they get 10-15 because there is usually more than one doc buffing. I point you toward the doc forums and ask you to read the posts where people say they have insane lines that are long. Perhaps they're just exaggerating, but the point is the same. I personally have had lines that seemed to me to be way too long (I used to write names down), but then I have stopped buffing because I found that maddening. I have talked to people who have admitted to waiting a 1/2 hour to get buffed. Managing long lines is not to my taste and as I said, I"m not sure that would be fun for othersbut perhaps some people enjoy it. I'm not sure most people enjoy sitting in such long lines, whether it is a bot or a live player at the other end. So why arent there more entertainers buffing to deal with the demand? I think we've talked about several reasons why there aren't.

Where were they when people needed buffs but couldnt get them so they made their alt or bought an extra account to counter the problem?I had one friend who in november/december mastered dancer because a little blue box told him to. He complained to me that no one wanted mind buffs, no matter if he asked if he could give them away. There were no buffbots in heavy public operation back then on my server. So where were all the people who needed buffs when he wanted to give them? Now fair enough that was just his experience. But I think on both sides we had a serious change in the game play, with people starting to depend on mind buffs more just as many entertainers decided all the spam was really horrible and they didn't want to hang out where people might go look for mind buffs. Not to mention that player cities spread out players. Anyway, the why's of the situation are not nearly so important to me as what we want to do about the situation now that it is here.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

Have you made a docbut and proven that it is impossible to make it deliver a buff as good as a live entertainer? I said its difficult but can be done, perhaps not for hours on end (but I could swear I read some post with a way around that but maybe I just recall wrong).

We have a doc bot altin our guild, he runs all day The only thing that keeps peple from going to him is the fact he cannot recharge his droid. Otherwise his buffs would be just as good as those in Theed and coronet.

Ok.

Some bots are run by guilds and do not charge for the service because the bot is to help guildies out. The money lost is not a huge concern to these players.

Our bot does not charge an entrance fee, we tip, as im suremost guildies tip their docbot.

Im also sure most guildies are told to please tip the docbot.

Yes you want to tip the owner of the doc and guild to help with expensese. Seems only fair.

I did read a thread about a droid recharge macro,

The thread was indeed asking if there was a macro for it, none have been found to my knowledge.

but who's to say someone can't check on their bot at intervals to make sure that is running at full bonus?

They can, just like the new buffbots(if the loop is taken out) will to restart their macro.

So that doesnt make them bots anymore right?

Well that depends on whether you think you have to be afk to be a bot. People call atk docs bots sometimes just b/c they do nothing but buff.

But either way we're arguing about insignificant points, the main fact is that yes, doc is harder to macro so live doctors have on average more appeal than docbots, where this is not the case for a live entertainer vs an AFK one.

And THAT is the point ive been arguing this whole time that needs to be changed.

The current buffbots WILL find a way to play their chars and take business from you.

They will not take business from me as I am no longer in the buffing business as a doc, and I'm not an entertainer. Even if I were, what from a game design perspective does it matter if they takesome business from someone in my position? As long as there are appropraite incentives to make them play actively (forgoing other choices with their playing time) I have much less of a problem with the notion. Now if they have to usethird party macro systems to compete then this is a problem.

Nothing will change...

And because everyone was so sure this loop removal would change things and made that top priority, it is less likely they will change anything else for them soon. The community got what they wanted.

I don't know that follows. The dev's have a lot on their plate. They want a game we all enjoy and with every change they make there does come a period of adjustment, then reassessment. It may take awhile to get some other changes made but I wouldn't give up hope that dev's will be looking into the issues that concern people. Nor do I think the people who have been interested in this issue will heave a collective sigh and say that's done or that's gone to heck. Some will. Some won't.

The ones I've seen look to be more complicated because of the whole target the person and the requirement to "restock" the doc. Not necessarily saying the coding is difficult,but the entire process of operating the bot takes more steps.

hehe not really. I mean if you are speaking of setting up the doc, of course you need buffs to do it and you need to do thatone thing

Someone has to spend the credits to buy the packs or make the packs--there is more effort involved overall. Maybe not a huge amount but some.

They are most useful for guilds where money is not the issue.

Credits are always an issue when resources like avian meat that sells for 1mil per 1k are used

I assure you guilds ask that the docbots be tipped, unless the guild donates the buffpacks.

They may not have a set tip amount, but they ask for tips all the same.

Actually my guild is small and cosy and we dont have a docbot. But yes of course expense is an issue but perhaps I should have said that making a big profit is not the issue for these guild bots.

In fact, in general, I don't disagree with you. All I said was that if someone were dedicated enough to do it, they could design a docbot that would more than satisfy the needs of some players in a way that would leave a live doctor with little advantage. It would be far less likely to happen than someone designing an AFK entertainer that would be preferred to an ATK one.

I dont think you are getting my point Read the red below

This needs to be addressed as there will still be buffbots even if they decide to do away with the looping macro.

I'm just confused at this point. There may be buffbots but the question for me has always been, is the overall cost to get buffs something that is balanced with the benefit each type of buff provides, as well as making the game fun and enjoyable with respect to the perceived needs for buffs.

I am not "crying for a nerf". I have suggested a few things to help the situation and encouraged others to do the same. Why am I alone responsible for generating an idea--where are YOUR ideas?

I brought mine here and Iwaspassively told that my posts should be ignored because I am an outsider.

I'm an outsider too. Now you just sound kind of peeved that some people ignored your ideas and are attributing motives to what I say that I do not think I have.I didn't see your ideas, but then I may have just mised them not ignored them. The thread is really long, and I spent a good deal of time arguing with someone who's idea of discussing my points was to repeatedly imply I was anan elitist entertainer then spend time arguing with someone else about having "slandered them" for having implied very indirectly that person may have used bots. Perhaps I should have said he slandered me by saying "you" when refering to entertainers.Anyway,in this post I see you have alluded to having suggested making buffs stronger, an idea I have seen before elsewhere and which as anaside, I pointed out that could have other bad effects on the balance of the game. I certainly did not ignore your ideas because you are not an entertainer. I just didn't realize you had suggested bonuses to ATK buffs or when I said you hadn't suggested ideas, I forgot that you had. Sorry, but this thread is really long. I can't be expected to remember everything you'v eposted in it no more than I expect you to remember everything I"ve said.

I asked you to generate one because you claim thats what needs to be done. Previous in this thread (twice) I have mentioned my ideas and theywere ignored.

I did come up with a new idea invovling allowing people to use a character with merchant skills to provide a buff vendor somewhere in one of the numerous posts above. Perhaps you missed that as well, but as I said, boy this is long and its ok ifyou missed it. Maybe tomorrow or some other day I'll flesh it out better, but I was thinking that could be way to provide a cost to having a buff vendor without allowing people to provide an AFK service that has no ongoing cost to it. That hits my concern about game balance, butthe idea needs more work so that it could also serve the needs of the entertainer community and notjust those needing a supply of mindbuffs that could be provided 23/7 or those having the desire to suply it. That is, if people feel a need to merchantize entertainer, then why not provide a mechanic to do this in a propper way with costs to the benefits of having the buff vendor?

(and you did indeed admit to having overlooked whether increasing atk buff strength was a good idea)

umm, it was my idea?

How could I overlook it?

If you mean I overlooked the effect that having stronger buffs would be on the combat professions in a whole, that is part of the discussion you(i think)offered to my idea. I didn't realize it was your idea--its an idea I've seen posted on the inconcept thread and I threw it out as a general oft proposed solution that some entertainers want without possibly having thought about the impact on other professions..

Why else would someone post an idea if they didnt want to discuss it? As I said, I missed where you posted it.

Im not saying it is an original idea, I just dont think you can say I overlooked an idea when it was my idea Its not perfect and needs fine tuning, thats why people discuss things no? Good so let's discuss it. My idea on merchanting is not perfect either and definitely needs a lot of fine tuning. Right now on the doc forums there is talk to nerf doc buffs and I happen to think maybe that is the right thing to do because demand is at an insane level. So I worry if we make mindbuffs too strong the same thing would happen to entertainers. Do you have a suggestion for different bonuses to be given to at key players, such as bonuses for crafting or bonuses to defense rather than stacking on mind? Or do you follow the view of Poetdancer and others that giving you more tools to be entertaining would be a sufficient reason for other players to interact with the entertainer profession?

Do you really think things are wonderful the way they are now?

mmm no, thats why I started the thread and offered Ideas and asked what people thought

I think we agree on this. Good I'm glad you don't think they are perfect now. Some people do.

So why arent there more entertainers buffing to deal with the demand?

I think we've talked about several reasons why there aren't.

Actually no one will talk about it, they can only say one thing. Nerf the bots.

I think there are several posts talking about it--look up above. People are not just saying nerf the bots, and I have not just been saying nerf the bots.

But I think on both sides we had a serious change in the game play, with people starting to depend on mind buffs more just as many entertainers decided all the spam was really horrible and they didn't want to hang out where people might go look for mind buffs.

I agree completely and I cant wait until the hologrind is over.

Actually, I think people now think grinding is simply how you do entertainer--it may lessen the spam when fewer people feel the need to grind but we'll have to wait and see.

Anyway, the why's of the situation are not nearly so important to me as what we want to do about the situation now that it is here.

But dont you see that buffbots (the situation now) were created because people couldnt find an entertainer to buff them?

Hmm...I'm sure it had something to do with the proliferation, butI think that is not the full story. I believe there is a game called Asheron's call i've heard mentioned on these forums where bots were apparently a way of life. So I think some people just came into this game with the idea that bots are the way to go right from the start, irregardless of what other players could or could not supply them. When I started I had a friend on another server who apparently bought 6 copies of the game right from the start to start his empire. Anyway, once the macros were created to make bots,people began to share these macros, making it easier on more playersto make bots. Now obviously the lack of entertainers about the galaxy encourages people to use the bots and the cycle starts to happen that we have now. Bots become a reason for entertainers to quit, causing there to be fewer entertainers, causing there to be more incentive for others to open yet anotherbot. I do not think lack of garages or artisans caused more and more people to use the shuttle repair thing when it worked, even after being told it was an exploit. The trick was simply more convenient and as more and more people found out about it, more and more used it. Bots right now are more convenient than needing to ask a live player to possibly stop what they are doing to help you out, whether or not the live player is standing right there (except perhaps for docs).Now we could think of a way to make a 23/7 service available that is not quite as good as liveentertainer players to both ensure people have access to buffs, a reason to interact with entertainers and to allow thosewanting to run a merchant style entertainer while away form keyboard (but not logged in and AFK) that does nothing but buff to do so.Or we could just make brandy a lot better and remove buffing from the entertainer tree as some entertainers say they now want.

You said yourself, people got tired of the cantina.

People seem to think the AFK grinder and buffbots are the same beast. While they may use the same mechanics they are, in fact, different in what they do in game. Because the outcome of one being removed is completely different than the other.

I agree with that. Sorry I kept changing the purple color for some reason hope its clear what I said where I said it.

---

My assertion is exactly as it is stated. Perfectly clear. Feel free to continue to twist words and make false accusations of my intent. I will not.

~Til Kismeta~
I'm a dishonest man, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.
It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, honestly. Because you can't tell when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid.

You accused me of using BuffBots to become as "uber" as possible, despite the fact that I have never, ever used a BuffBot.

And, of course, you point out that you can "debate with the best of them". If this constitutes making thoughtless assumptions regarding a character you know nothing about, and then hysterically withdrawing when called on your lies, then, yes, you most certainly can.

Run along, troll.

IGN Memos

Also, you may want to make an adjustment to your numbers. Buffbots generally charge 100% less than a live entertainer, not 10%

~Til Kismeta~
I'm a dishonest man, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.
It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, honestly. Because you can't tell when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid.

Thoughtless assumptions? Refer to one of my previous posts. You've done just as poorly, my friend.

~Til Kismeta~
I'm a dishonest man, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.
It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, honestly. Because you can't tell when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid.