CUEmu - Thread Posts

Zilod

Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:08 pm

Krupskaya wrote:

Zilod wrote:

Krupskaya wrote:

Well, the Developers have spoken and Recursive Macroes are being removed. I'm assuming that concludes things. And I'm sure the controversy helped.

yup i think that too

probably in first weeks there will be some troubles to find buffing entertainers, but i'm sure that entertainer population will begin to regenerate and more buffing entertainers will be available...

now i think we have to think someting about buff mechanic, to improve it and make it more user friendly... but that's another 3d

Agreed. I'm sure things will turn out for the best. But I'm cancelling within the week anyway, and I'm just here for the controversy

ok quite OT but just curious... you are here form almost an year, why cancelling now?

Krupskaya

Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:10 pm

#184

Zilod wrote:

ok quite OT but just curious... you are here form almost an year, why cancelling now?

Just bored, lonely and jaded. I actually took another hiatus between late September 2003and March 2004 for much the same reasons.

IGN Memos

Padtai

Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:35 pm

#185

here we go again.

By the same virtue, you argue out of self-interest (as an Entertainer) and cannot be trusted with the greater good. If players are guided -exclusively- by self-interest -- and this is a very pessimistic appraisal that has yet to be substantiated -- then you are certainly no exception. And by sheer plurality, then -- after all, it has been pointed out so often that players "prefer" AFK to ATK Entertainers -- their opinion wins. Meaning the argument is circular.

Your assertion is that the playerbase cannot be trusted with a choice. That's rather self-evident. If you felt they could be trusted with a choice, you would not be so anxious to rescind it.

I'm not an entertainer. I said so repeatedly. I admit I had an entertainer alt, but I did say, I decided not to use that as a buffbot which was the reason I started the character. So here I am, actually arguing for something that could make the game harder to me (sort of as I don't "depend" on entertainer buffs, I just buy food), despite that you say I am only motivated out of selfish interests.

Still I admit, there is self motivation to my argument--I want my community elder badge and I like to debate. Beyond this, I do think and have explained why buffbots affect me personally though I am not an entertainer. Its the same thing as why I opposed using the shuttle repair bug.

Besides, I have never said that I should be trusted withthe greater good, though you keep saying that you think I want to be. In fact, I think I pretty clearly said that my opinion on the matter is only my opinion and is as valid as yours. In fact, I believe I said the developers should be entrusted with the choice as that is their job. We can only inform them as to our opinions about what is good.

I think the playerbase can be trusted with some choices, but not all of them. Apparently the developers agree with me that they must sometimes make changes to the game despite player sentiment that something should not be changed (image design change), just as they sometimes avoid changing something because of player sentiment (like armor color). I am anxious to rescind the choice on buffbots simply becuase I think the situation is pretty bleak right now and I haven' t seen other proposals that would solve all the issues. I'm open to other alternatives, ones that increase options and give more choices. In fact if anything, I think giving players more choices not to use buffbots may be a good thing.

You rather openly asserted that the players cannot be trusted with a choice. You then offered gratuitous examples of how they cannot be trusted with a choice. Therefore, I am not extrapolating or laying out "generalizations". Your claim was that the benighted masses did not deserve a choice on thisissue, because you knew better where their finances should be directed.Naturally, you've deleted all the paragraphs to which I was responding, neatly cleansing all evidence of the very elitism I described.

No, my original post is still there you can go and copy it out line by line should you choose. I have not cleansed anything.

I said that some players cannot be trusted with some choices. That is a very different statement than saying all players cannot be trusted with any choices. The examples I gave were not gratuitous. If I were not already due to do something else with my time besides debate with you, I might think of more examples but I"m sure you or those following our discussion can think of some. The concept is not hard. The concept is that we have rules and laws to limit our choices because as a society we cannot allow individuals alone to always decide what choices they can make, just as we would not want a government (or a development team) to always make the choices for us.

I believe that this specific issue has hit a pass where player choices are not resulting in a fun game for all players involved. If you want to call me elitist, or some other set of words, please do. But as in real life, there come times when free choice does need to be restricted for the greater good, even in capitalist free thinking socieites, and there is no "elitism" about this, it is in fact a more pluralist view.I am interested in hearing opinions on how to make the game better. You are interested in defending your "right" to "choose" how to keep it the same.

Then you are arguing for real choices based on vague euphemisms. "Game environment"? I'm not bothered by some random individual standing in the corner of a Cantina and spamming "AFK Buffer PLZ Invite + Tip 10k 4 Buffz" any more than I'm annoyed by, say, Doctors resurrecting fallen combatants using kits assembled of water and fruits.

Again the grass is green the sky is blue. What the heck does that mean? You aren't bothered by spam, but many players are. It is why the developers added channels for auction and planet and the AFK filter. I think they often see situations they can improve the game even if some players are not affected by the "improvements."

If you are not making an economic argument, then you have no argument whatsoever insofar as there is no uniform "game environment" nor universal player preference.

Game balance simply is whether every benefit obtained in game has a corresponding cost sufficient to provide challenge to the game. Hence, doc buffs require "avian meat" rather than solely mined ingredients. Spice is easy to craft but has a downer. Now afk bots remove much of the "cost" to mind buffs since the provider no longer spends in game time to deliver the buff. There is an economic argument to be made as well as an argument to say that the economics are out of balance (the same way having shuttles repair vehicles hurt artisans, and others by removing a moneysink).

I can think of any number of things that impair my gaming enjoyment more than BuffBots, such as various ATK Entertainers screaming profanities and spamming rude emotes on the aforementioned BuffBots out of impotent rage.

I would agree that ATK entertainers should not spam rude emotes no more than anyone should. Spam is bad. In a can not so bad, but in game, bad.

And for every player who finds BuffBots intolerable, you will find one who loves them and several who don't particularly care. Consequently, you cannot monopolize what is a vague, intensely personal and decidely not uniform concept such as the gaming environment.

I have stated that people have various opinions on buffbots. However, I have also tried to analyze the reasons players feel this way. My conclusion is that only very few players love buffbots because it allows them to avoid interacting with other players. Most would be happy if they didn't need the buffs or could obtain the buffs through some skill in their own character. Very few love the concept of patronizing a buffbot merely for the sake of it. Some love the concept of owning a buffbot simply because it allows them much reward for little effort. That is all fine, but again, just as the developers play around with balancing the combat system, it is their job to balance these competing interests.

Providing a service while AFK is not analogous to GodMode. It is far more analogous to Merchants who themselves provide services AFK.

I didn't say AFk service was godmode, I said that some playerswould use that command if it were in the game. The merchant profession is quite another subject altogether. If entertainers were meant to be played as merchants, then that is fine but perhaps there could be a hybrid profession requiring merchant and entertainer to place a buffbot. It is, as I said, about balance. Merchants must pay maintenance on their vendors. There is no maintenance on an afk entertainer. If we instituted the right costs to the get the benefit that AFK entertainers provide, then I would not have as big a problem with them as I do now. Entertainers might stil continue to feel that the very concept of buffbots eliminates any need to play their role, butas I said, there are various options to consider here and a few problems to solve: The availability of mind buffs, the need for mind buffs, the validity of the entertainer professions.

And now we have another unsubstantiated assumption that I may simply despise Entertainers and want them to "quit this game and play something else". Frankly, I'm certain those who define the "survivability" of the social Entertainer professions on the ability to sell buffs with the utmost efficiency will ultimately leave anyway, as their concerns will be better satisfied by a single-player game. It's amatter of temperament.

I'm glad that you don't despise entertainers, I just wondered if you did because of the frequencey with which you refer to "bitter" or even worse terms to describe ATK entertainers. I ceratinly wouldn't make the assumption that you loved them from the tone of your posts. Again, there are players who do feel they despise them. Perhaps, as you keep pointing out, in response to "bitter" entertainers. And you may be right that entertainers do not need to control the supply of buffs. PoetDancer, a long time entertainer, has made several posts along this line that she would rather see all entertainers able to buff without having any control over it, so that entertainers can concentrate on being "amusing" rather than buffng. There are various temperaments at work here.

If you argue that players are too incompetent to be vested with a choice, the perjorative is yours, not mine. If you did not consider them incompetent, you would not argue for the removal of their free agency and seek to regiment their economic and social lives. The problem may be, rather, that you don't understand the implications of your argument.

I think I do understand the implications, but perhaps neither of us do. Again, I was pro repair of the shuttle repair bug and in retrospect, agreed with the pet changes. I do not think we are "incompetent" to be vested with choice in general, but I do think we have reached the limits of player ability to solve the issues with buffbots, the same way we have reached the limits of player ability to solve the issues with PVP and other things in game.

BuffBotting is not equivalent to scamming. Otherwise, yes, I'm open to suggestions to ameliorate the situation, provided consumer choice remains. I don't patronize BuffBots -- ever -- but I'm offended to no end that many Entertainers would think me too stupid and irresponsible to make this choice, and thus delete BuffBots altogether to divest me of my autonomy.

I think it isa matter of opinion whether buffbots are scamming or not. To paraphrase (voltaire?) you do not agree with the choice to bot, but you will go to your death to defend the right to bot? Whatever your motivations, please understand that my motivation is not to demean or belittle anyone. I'm sorry you are offended that I say there are players who cannot make rational choices because I am not in any way saying you are one of them. I do wonder why you continue to place so much faithin "free agency" in the hands of a player base that as I have stated, is of mixed capability and responsibility. That is not to say we can't handle any choices, but that the developers do need to ocassionaly step in and make sure the game is playable. Why would you favor buffbots over allowing players a choice to use npcs or live entertainers? Or as I said, to register a buffbot vendor using merchant skills? There are multiple ways to address the situation, but allowing it to continue as it is now in the interest of player choice is not leading to a better game for all involved, nor even to more choices for players, but just a better game for those who run the bots (not even those who use them).

If you argue for the removal of choice, that presumes choice is undesirable. And if choise is undesirable, that presumes those making the choice are irresponsible. Again, it is impossible to see things in context, given that you have removed all the statements to which I was responding .....

Again you can feel free to go back through the pages and copy and paste my earlier statements. Do not blame me because you do not wish to take the time to do that. I found it simpler to copy only the exact phrase ofyours to which I was responding. You may feel free to copy the entire posts again. I was afraid that to do so wouldturn it into a rainbow of confusing paragraphs. Cut and paste seems to work quite well from windows and if you do not have this software, then I am sorry but I am not removing the older paragraphs to make your task more difficult but to make mine easier.

Similarly, I do not argue for the removal of choice simply to deprive the player base of power orsome desire to punnish the player base for being irresonsible. I believe in this one specific case of buffbots, that we are not even given all ofthe choices that the developers could in fact provide us with and that they need to look at the situation. I am not convinced that buffbots are the optimal choice for us to make and would like to have different options available to me.

So the consumers aren't just stupid -- they might be ignorant, or extremely young, too. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I'm sorry if that offends you or seems patronizing, but the truth is, there are times when we aren't behaving at our best. I'm sure you know what I mean. The fact that this sounds harsh does not in anway change what we should do about this. You may be smart, informed and old enough to know better, but there are some players who are not and the game the way it works now, will do nothing to allow these consumers to become smart, informed and yes old enough to make better choices. We have food labels in my country for this reason. We have safety standards in workplaces. We have all kinds of rules and regulations to save us from ourselves and I do not think we should get rid of all of these rules and regulations just to make us feel more in control because some of us are not able to be in that much control.

The mere presence of competition does not compel an Entertainer to leave the game for greener pastures. The ability to socialize, dance and, yes, buff, remains. A 25-30%, incremental reduction in profit is not game-breaking.

Where did you come up with this 25-30% figure? Would 100% be game breaking, or is 65% enough? I don't know how you have the information, but surely you must think there is some point at which it is game-breaking.

The difference between the profitability of an ATK and an AFK Entertainer is much less than the difference between the profitability of, say, running missions for a profit with a Pistoleer versus a Rifleman. The latter can manage 2,000,000 credits in a buff session by running Enraged Rancor missions. No Pistoleer could accomplish the same.

Are you so sure? I ran these with carbineer, which is probably even more gimped than pistol (maybe maybe not). Sorry now i'm aruging just to argue and that is not necessary.

Does that mean Pistoleers are essentially a "dead class", and Riflemen must be immediately eliminated as a dire threat to their livlihood? Hardly.

No but I do think pistoleers are asking for more strength and specials. Some pistoleers may ask for rifelman nerfs, certainly we've seen many requests for CM nerfs. I think the example doesn't make the point you want it to make.

The counterpoint is that neither Pistoleers nor Riflemen are AFK; however, it is already amply established that one pays for services based on the quality provided, not the effort therein.

Yes but in a game, shouldn't reward also depend partially on the effort putin too? Or else maybe we should expand the afk system to allowpeople to do all combat while AFK, not just an isolated POI here or there, so we can have the CHOICE to get more loot without having to put much into the game to get it.

BuffBots are among a variety of problems for ATK Entertainers. While the latter congregate in two or three major cantinas -- Coronet, Theed, etc -- while neglecting the rest of the galaxy, and then complain when BuffBots start springing up, I'm inclined to think the latter are symptomatic of a problem, not the problem itself.

Yes the problem is more complicated than just buffbots, and I think most people can agree there. I however continue to believe that in and of themselves, buffbots are a problem. Removing them may not be the right solution, but then we've been given an in concept thread to discuss alternatives.

Maybe instead of using your time to respond to me to point out how I don't trust some players or think i know better than some players, go and present an idea that you think would accomplish what you want in the way of preserving player choice while also giving enetertainers more options to feel valued and important to the game economy. After all who I trust or don't is of small concern, compared to what choices the developers will feel they need to make. I have already presented a system that I think would address the interaction problem. Perhaps I may revise what I suggested or maybe I won't, but I think it is time you put up some ideas over there. If you have already, then I'll take a look and thank you for the input.

Willforce

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:12 pm

#186

afk macroing for entertainers has been around since day 1.
buffbots didnt come onto the scene till way later.
killin the looping macro will not get rid of buffbots just the afk/macroing entertainers.
those bots that have already mastered the profession are prolly sittin back laughing.
my prediction for the future
a whole lot less entertainers in cantinas
a rise in 2nd accounts for use as buffbots

__________________________________________
Ronalds Seabreeze---- Bloodfin
Master Tailor - Master Merchant - Master Armorsmith

RIS certified

PistolDance

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:14 pm

#187

AnakinSWG wrote:

Future implementation of entertainer content will continue to hold our interest (some is in the works.) We've been working at this for a long time. We've won!

Future implementation of entertainer content did not hold enough interest before buffbots, why will it hold enough interest after?

Buffbots came into play because there wasnt enough interest in the first place, making this ability harder will not solve the initial problem.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

PistolDance

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:18 pm

#188

AnakinSWG wrote:

Future implementation of entertainer content will continue to hold our interest (some is in the works.) We've been working at this for a long time. We've won!

Til, you seem to think you have knowledge of the entertainer community cornered, many of them are speaking up against this development idea. It limits their play.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

PhoenixOrion

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:23 pm

#189

The thing that sucks about no more buff bots after the lame upcoming nerf of reoccuring macro loops is this: there won't be any Entertainers on anymore.

Yet another reason why PVP is going to suck.

Phoenix Orion - Master Smuggler, Master Teras-Kasi, Scoundrel, Rogue & Entrepreneur
Owner, Operator - Orion Transport Company (-3579,4347), outside Theed, Naboo - Clamps, Knives, AUK's, WUk's & Spice!
Slicing: 5000cr/Item Faction Point Sales: 15k/100fp (1 day notice by email necessary!)
(Known Rebel Terrorists and people who contact Zarrn Orion for Smuggler Services are automatically Blacklisted.)

PistolDance

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:26 pm

#190

PhoenixOrion wrote:

The thing that sucks about no more buff bots after the lame upcoming nerf of reoccuring macro loops is this: there won't be any Entertainers on anymore.

Yet another reason why PVP is going to suck.

I agree, something needs to be done concerning why buffbots started showing up. Not just put a stop to them.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

Schardour

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:49 pm

#191

PistolDance wrote:

I agree, something needs to be done concerning why buffbots started showing up. Not just put a stop to them.

That "something" is already on the table. They've been working on interactive missions, entertainer quests, and possibly a few other ideas that are being tossed about. The removal of buffbots, while not a cure to the problem entertainers have, is a step in the right direction.

I have no pity for you Milandra. I've always enjoyed PvP and done well enough with only food. If you can't find a buff as quickly as you want for a few weeks, then you'll still have that alternative.

If Doctors were easily macroed, you would be having this debate with them as well. Not one profession appreciates being deemed by the community worthless toactually play.

TIL KISMETA

lTlSlCl

A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable,

but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.

XzXzXzXzX

Also...Tayel [PLD]

-darkshadow-

Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:16 pm

#192

What is really wrong with afk people? They added your precious "afk ignore" and if they didnt put themselves on afk you can still manually type it for goodness sakes! So what if someone wants to spend THEIR $15 a month afk? Don't like afkers, DONT PATRON!!!! It is that simple. And now, thanks to the endless line of whinners, I will now have to go find someone to buff me and I might even have to talk to them to be polite. Maybe I dont want to talk to people which is why I choose to go to the afkers. There will be evils to this you havent even had the forethought to think of!! Give it two weeks and all you people moaning will be moaning again for it to be fixed because it has now messed you up in some other way.

Zilod

Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:45 pm

#193

sigh back from the start...

anyway....

-darkshadow- wrote:

What is really wrong with afk people? They added your precious "afk ignore" and if they didnt put themselves on afk you can still manually type it for goodness sakes! So what if someone wants to spend THEIR $15 a month afk? Don't like afkers, DONT PATRON!!!! It is that simple. And now, thanks to the endless line of whinners, I will now have to go find someone to buff me and I might even have to talk to them to be polite. Maybe I dont want to talk to people which is why I choose to go to the afkers. There will be evils to this you havent even had the forethought to think of!! Give it two weeks and all you people moaning will be moaning again for it to be fixed because it has now messed you up in some other way.

i pay 15$/month too so why a single buffbot should ruin the game for 10/20/50 players in a cantina?

they don't pay 15$ too?

and combatants have just to await a bit that more entertainers will return to play and they can still use spices, brandy as buffs, so they can still play... maybe they will just tank just 1 elder instead of 3...

for entertainers the thing is a bit different... while afkers are around they just can't play... the population of entertainer is so low because months of afkers have 'killed'most of them you can see that looking all 3 entertainers forums...

also these things are alredy been told, so plz look at all post in the thread, many points have alredy been discussed, sure add something to the discussion is wellcome but notreastart it from 0 plz

PistolDance

Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:55 pm

#194

Schardour wrote:

PistolDance wrote:

I agree, something needs to be done concerning why buffbots started showing up. Not just put a stop to them.

If Doctors were easily macroed, you would be having this debate with them as well. Not one profession appreciates being deemed by the community worthless toactually play.

Incorrect, they DO have this ability and DO use it. But people PREFER a live doctor because their buffs are more powerful.

All I am asking is the same thing be done for entertainers. Let the players have a choice without curbing their ability to play when they want.

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

PistolDance

Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:59 pm

#195

Zilod wrote:

for entertainers the thing is a bit different... while afkers are around they just can't play... the population of entertainer is so low because months of afkers have 'killed'most of them you can see that looking all 3 entertainers forums...

The population of entertainers is what caused buffbots. Finding an entertainer to buff you was the reason buffbots became so used.

If you dont believe melook at all the complaints in the development thread concerning not being able to find an entertainer, and why people bought an account just to make their own buffbot.

Message Edited by PistolDance on 08-01-2004 07:10 PM

Milandra (SI)

" Into the garbage chute fly-boy! "

Entertainer Archive

Thread: BuffBots, are they really the problem?