Entertainer Archive
Thread: I asked...I got an answer. :(
Lesia wrote:
The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the problem is not the recursive macro but the ability to mind buff. Leave the macro and take away the buff... sure combat players THINK they need it, but they can always use brandy and canape.And if no one is getting a mind buff then no one has an advantage in PvP and they can adjust their fighting accordingly. Bots will always exist to heal wounds and bf, but not in the numbers that exist now and there will be no advantage to using a bot over a ATK player (of any level)for passive healing. Healing bots might even join in groups and add to the experience rather than be a cantina disruption. By competing with a large number of buff bots, we're not making more credits orentertaining anymorethan we did before buffing was implemented. In fact, buffing has had a detrimental effect on the economic andsocial aspects of the dance and musicprofessions. I'm completely in favor of reverting to the original system as part of the combat upgradeand then rethinking the entertainer professions.
Wouldn'treverting the system not be as difficult as creating a new system and could be doneas part of theCU orsooner?
It's so bizarre how we actually have 3 professions here (ent, dancer, and musician) who are actually asking and considering asking the devs to take away content. I don't think I have ever in my life, seen that happen in an MMORPG before. It's so sad that it's gotten that bad for people that so many just want to say, "take it all away, it's not worth it anymore."
Oqua wrote:
Gotain,
Try and actually read what entertainers are saying.
Try and actually reread what you are saying in your posts. I got all that from the words typed out by your little fingers. Normally I loathe text as a medium to converse, because its so easy to misconstrue what a person really means just by words. The one thing I do love about it though is its sooo easy to go back and see what a person typed.
Since you make assumptions (yes, thats you doing it mister) that the reason I did jedi was because I was "following the crowd", try again.
Want to know why I ground out professions?
Because the one profession I really wanted to play I went on hiatus from. I wanted to give this game a chance. So I looked for other ways to entertain myself in the hopes that they would fix the profession I loved...fix the professions that are being ruined by afk zombies/bots.
I learned how to play every one, quite proficiently too. Yes I do know that many professions have specials that don't work. Thats what the coming revamps are going to address yes? What I do know though is that I could still PLAY them. No where does super armor, super buffs, super weapons make any content un-doable by me as a fighter person.
Want to know the set of classes that are totally unplayable and have no function with bots and zombies out there? Oh yes, those are the atk dancers/musicians/entertainers.
This is about discussing something taken out that was an abuse done by some select greedy selfish individuals. Because they wanted more...because they wanted stuff now...because they wanted stuff easy.
Not about you trying to go onto a tirade about every other profession. Please save it. If you can find another argument with merit that doesn't use your "nuh uh" logic, then by all means I wish to listen and learn. Otherwise, I will lump you in with all the other buffbot champions, and the people who don't know what it is to be an entertainer...a real entertainer.
P.S. And if you were an entertainer for longer then it took you to grind something out...shame on you for saying all we want is to make people talk to us. Those areyour words sugar, not mine. Silly me though for even responding back to you on this thread. When you can't even comprehend what YOU write, how in the heavens name do I expect you to comprehend what other people are saying here.
Message Edited by Gotainllyod on 11-11-2004 10:20 AM
no its not your imagination and its sure as hell not your computer, but even before there were all these afk people as usay "using system resources" the lag was worse and the servers alot less stable, I dont believe afk people are the sole cause of your lag problems no, i do believe they are doing something that is morally wrong and unfair though. Anyway just another one of my ill concoeved arguements.
You do believe they're doing something unfair? Given how you've been arguing I 'm guessing you weren't trying to agree with everyone who's been saying that dedicated AFK play is unfair. I think you've been insisting that as long as its in the rules it can't be unfair. Then your second argument seems to be, that AFk play can't be more taxing than live players being on. I think rayill did a good job of explaining the concept, and even if its not the "sole cause" of lag, I can tell you its a great, big, ridiculous source of it. One we could do witthout.
Here's a list of just, oh, a few things that were "in the rules" until the dev's changed the mechanics or the rules to stop (or at least discourage)the activities:
*summoning other people's pets
* using harvesters to trap creatures
*fixing bikes by leaving them out when using shuttles (including disabled bikes)
* keeping vendors after dropping merchant
* putting empty bags on vendors to defarud others
*sending fake bank tips
*using warcry to perpetually trap someone while teammates pound them
There are probably more, I can't remember. You see, "fair" and "rules" aren't the same thing. They ought to be and the developers try hard to make them be the same. Yet its tricky as sometimes, a practice that could be innocent or legitmate in some circumstances,turns into a way to destroy the challenges the developers put in the game, that tilt the playing field in favor of one player or another.
I agree with you that most people would not choose to use the afk macro system to replace play if we had improved game mechanics. I disagree that everyone, heck, even many, would stop. Ultimately, we all have limited time to play and the game never stops, but we pay for unlimited access. The temptation to have continual advancement is too huge for most of us to resist, especially if we are not told outright that it is unfair. Yet its not *fair* if our continual advancement when not at our keyboards comes at the expense of an enjoyable playing experience for others who are at their keyboards. It is not fair when AFK play has become so prevalent that players question others for trying to play at the keyboard, then try to discourage them from doing so directly through posts on the boards, statements in game as well as indirectly. I have met people who say they have to afk or they can't get any experience any more or get any money with their characters skills. If you can't beat them, they say, join them. This is not a healthy game. It is not a fair game, when the only way (by enlarge) to play some roles is to not play them, but automate them.
Do you understand whyduping is not allowed? I know, we cant' dupe under the rules, but think about *why*. Games break down when you reduce the incentive for the people playing to think in response to the game, to "earn" their way through the game in some fashion. If you can only define cheating by what is in the rules, then how would you ever make the rules in the first place? We have to have some understanding of why some actions are permitted and others are not. When you can think about it that way, then present an argument that afk play is somehow still "fair" despite the discouraging of incentive to play actively, then you've got somehting to talk about. And there are some circumstances, such as where people need to take breaks, that I can see someone saying a little "afk automation" is fair. Outside of that though, everyone who's pro afk play is really, pro removing challenges from the game without regard to the balance left behind. They may as well be pro-duping for all they care about making the game enjoyable for anyone else to play.
Gotainllyod wrote:
so basically because of the entertainers whineing, i wont be able to use any recursive macros to aid me in pvp anymore. Thanks guys and gals you just made this game 50% less fun for me. remeber not all of us want to sit and talk to people in cantinas all day as it isnt our thing, but because us that dont choose to do that want to play the rest of the content in the game, we are being punished for it. Btw u guys do realise tha recursive macros going away is gonna screw with ATK people as much as it is afk people, Recursive macros gone = no macros to aid your dancing and music playing. Anyway flame em all you want its my opinion and i pay the 45 bucks a month for my 3 accounts just the same as anyone else does.
Gotain,
I am not the one who brought up jedi as an "achievement". In fact, I just brought it up to do what I said...show you that most people here have combat people who hunt extensively. That was the only reason (which I believe I did state).
YOU are the one that brought up disdain for why someone like me would pursue jedi. I brought it up again, not to rub you little face in it, but to show you why I did it. Since you assumed WRONGLY of my reason to do so. End of story on the jedi, mmmmkay? No where is there anything intimating I am "better then you" or what not. Merely stated it to help prove my point, nothing more nothing less. So you quit putting words in my mouth mister, got that?
Oh, the above highlighted text is from your first post as I stated previously. Obviously you can't look that up for yourself, so I thought I would show you, since you asked. 
No where am I saying a person's differing viewpoint is unwelcomed. In fact, I would LOVE to hear new views and perspecitives on showing me how entertainer's are ruining your game. I would LOVE to hear new views on how needed buffbots are. I really would.
What I said is that your form of arguing is getting a bit old, and is a bit tired, much like the same positions presented over and over again. If you hadn't posted, I doubt we would be having this discussion. I for one know that I wouldn't have gone to your galaxy forum looking for you to post my views on why I don't like buffbots. In fact, I don't post onthis subjecthere unless someone comes having a tantrum, much like you have today.
Again, if you have an argument other then "entertainers suck, they are ruining my game..macros are good and SOE says nothing wrong with afk...you all are a bunch of whiners", by all means I wish to discuss and hear what you have to say.
So far though, all you have done is basically said "prove it..nuh uh, macros are so good/legal in game...blah blah blah". All of which has been said and done a myriad number of times by many more articulate then yourself.
*small tiredsmile* Now, good day to you Sir. Even if you post again, I know it will be some of the same "nuh uh" arguments you are so so versed in, so I won't bother responding to you. I have a date with some decongestant, and the eighth season of 'Friends' on DVD. 
***edit***Oh, and I am letting you have your opinion. You are just trying to prove you are right. I am not trying to change your mind, even if the hand of God wrote it in the skyyou would still argue your position....this I do know. I am just showing you that no one "needs" to be afk all day long for anything in playing their profession or class, either as a fighter or an entertainer. You just need to realize that other professions that aren't combat have a right to a working, playable profession and/or game....as well as an opinion.
Message Edited by Oqua on 11-11-2004 10:34 AM
Padtai wrote:
I agree with you that most people would not choose to use the afk macro system to replace play if we had improved game mechanics. I disagree that everyone, heck, even many, would stop. Ultimately, we all have limited time to play and the game never stops, but we pay for unlimited access. The temptation to have continual advancement is too huge for most of us to resist, especially if we are not told outright that it is unfair. Yet its not *fair* if our continual advancement when not at our keyboards comes at the expense of an enjoyable playing experience for others who are at their keyboards. It is not fair when AFK play has become so prevalent that players question others for trying to play at the keyboard, then try to discourage them from doing so directly through posts on the boards, statements in game as well as indirectly. I have met people who say they have to afk or they can't get any experience any more or get any money with their characters skills. If you can't beat them, they say, join them. This is not a healthy game. It is not a fair game, when the only way (by enlarge) to play some roles is to not play them, but automate them.
Exactly. Sure, some people might not afk as much, they might actually play more often if things were more fun for them. However, there is no way in hell that anyone can convince me that people wouldn't afk if they had the opportunity to do so. There are a lot of people who won't. But, the vast majority of the playerbase, if given the opportunity, will do so. In the other games I've played, people have resorted to 3rd party programs. In some, it was a matter of simply putting a rock on their enter key or using a drinky drinky bird, something they couldn't be caught doing necessarily. But, it's something they do anyway. If given the opportunity, many people will.
The difference with SWG is that they sanctioned it completely. The fact that they made it available to everyone does not put everybody on an even playing field. It pits all the people who are willing to do it because it's legal, against all the people who realize that it is gamebreaking to have an entire population afk'ing all the time. That is not a game. And, it gives hugely unfair advantages to people who choose not to play over people who choose to play. And, ironically, it fills a game full of people that are not optimum players for the developers. It fills the game full of people who actually aren't enjoying a game. And, consequently, these people ruin the game for the people who are enjoying the game.
It was an incredibly stupid move for SOE to implement this afk system in the first place. It shows a complete lack of foresight, and a complete lack of understanding for human nature. If the ability to afk was not implemented in the first place, this game would be so much stronger and more enjoyable. And, I guarantee you that we would never be having this debate. People would not be screaming at the devs to implement afk play. But, since we have it, people don't want to get rid of it. It's always hard to take away something that people already have. IMO, having this from the onset was most likely one of the biggest blunders in MMORPG history, and I will never play a game that allows this thing in the future. Never.
If you allow it, people will do it. Just because it's legal does not mean it's good for the game. And, if other professions could be afk'ed so that their benefits while afk were greater than their benefits while atk, like the ent professions are, then I gaurantee you 100% that all of these professions would be facing the exact same problem that the ents are. People cry that they don't like kill stealing, and people cry that they don't like afk spawn campers. And, SOE has taken measures to try to stop these things for the combat players. And, there are so many people that don't see how buffbotting is the exact same thing being done to entertainers. It makes me wonder if people have any higher thinking skills or are able to see correlations and cause and effect relationships.
Oqua wrote:
Gotainllyod wrote:
so basically because of the entertainers whineing, i wont be able to use any recursive macros to aid me in pvp anymore. Thanks guys and gals you just made this game 50% less fun for me. remeber not all of us want to sit and talk to people in cantinas all day as it isnt our thing, but because us that dont choose to do that want to play the rest of the content in the game, we are being punished for it. Btw u guys do realise tha recursive macros going away is gonna screw with ATK people as much as it is afk people, Recursive macros gone = no macros to aid your dancing and music playing. Anyway flame em all you want its my opinion and i pay the 45 bucks a month for my 3 accounts just the same as anyone else does.
Gotain,
I am not the one who brought up jedi as an "achievement". In fact, I just brought it up to do what I said...show you that most people here have combat people who hunt extensively. That was the only reason (which I believe I did state).
YOU are the one that brought up disdain for why someone like me would pursue jedi. I brought it up again, not to rub you little face in it, but to show you why I did it. Since you assumed WRONGLY of my reason to do so. End of story on the jedi, mmmmkay? No where is there anything intimating I am "better then you" or what not. Merely stated it to help prove my point, nothing more nothing less. So you quit putting words in my mouth mister, got that?
Oh, the above highlighted text is from your first post as I stated previously. Obviously you can't look that up for yourself, so I thought I would show you, since you asked.
No where am I saying a person's differing viewpoint is unwelcomed. In fact, I would LOVE to hear new views and perspecitives on showing me how entertainer's are ruining your game. I would LOVE to hear new views on how needed buffbots are. I really would.
What I said is that your form of arguing is getting a bit old, and is a bit tired, much like the same positions presented over and over again. If you hadn't posted, I doubt we would be having this discussion. I for one know that I wouldn't have gone to your galaxy forum looking for you to post my views on why I don't like buffbots. In fact, I don't post onthis subjecthere unless someone comes having a tantrum, much like you have today.
Again, if you have an argument other then "entertainers suck, they are ruining my game..macros are good and SOE says nothing wrong with afk...you all are a bunch of whiners", by all means I wish to discuss and hear what you have to say.
So far though, all you have done is basically said "prove it..nuh uh, macros are so good/legal in game...blah blah blah". All of which has been said and done a myriad number of times by many more articulate then yourself.
*small tiredsmile* Now, good day to you Sir. Even if you post again, I know it will be some of the same "nuh uh" arguments you are so so versed in, so I won't bother responding to you. I have a date with some decongestant, and the eighth season of 'Friends' on DVD.
***edit***Oh, and I am letting you have your opinion. You are just trying to prove you are right. I am not trying to change your mind, even if the hand of God wrote it in the skyyou would still argue your position....this I do know. I am just showing you that no one "needs" to be afk all day long for anything in playing their profession or class, either as a fighter or an entertainer. You just need to realize that other professions that aren't combat have a right to a working, playable profession and/or game....as well as an opinion.
Message Edited by Oqua on 11-11-2004 10:34 AM
the reason i brought that up was because that seems to be the main peeve of most ents, or in my opinion anyway,that they arent recieveing the social interaction they should do as they are being screwed out of it by AFK buffbots. My point there was maybe not all of us want interaction for various reasons and maybe some of us do want to interact.
Malakite26 wrote:
First off.. wow, ur agruement vs gotain is pointless.. he is simply mentioning that a in game macro being used to loot or kill things. Just because you are mad that someone made a recluse macro that allows them to buff bot.. doesn't take away the fact that ATk entertainers are going to be able to say hi, and chat with the people.. if they are using the buff bot it's because you as entertainers aren't putting enough effort into making them feel welcome, so they would rather use a buff bot to avoid the problem.. as u have said Jedi is a achievement.. it's alot of hard work and time put into grinding it.. as well as earning the jedi. U complain about a reclusive macro ruinding the game.. i would be more than willing to bet you used one to craft all ur crafting professions.. so before you make a huge post on how they suck, remember what u did to get jedi, and think clearly about ur decisions
Cloud...thank you for coming here and saying that Jedi is an accomplishment. I thought it was, just because I didn't think I could do so many professions in so little time.
As to using macros to do crafting, I don't think I have ever used one. I never had the patience to do the necessary tweaking and what not to get it right. I just had mulitple crafting machines, would sit in my tiny little house, and click away like mad.
Yes, I do think macros shouldn't be taken away, and they aren't going to be taken away (if I read correctly). What will be taken away is the ability to have a recursive macro and/or being afk for unattended play all day long. I think thats the objective of the devs in addressing the macro situation.