Entertainer Archive
Thread: I asked...I got an answer. :(
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:13 am
#144
kirah_ashlin wrote:
The recursive macro is NOT going away because of entertainers! You give us far too much credit for pull in this game. Please stop railroading threads to reiterate your gripes and laying unfounded blame at the feet of the wrong group of players. The reason the developers are looking into removing the recursive macro is because of CHEATERS! NOT entertainers.
explain to me what you mean by cheaters, and until ents started moaning devs didnt care.
LyteFoot
Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:31 am
#145
Actually you are wrong the recursive macro wasn't at all because of Ents, we have been complaining about it since go live. I sure wish the devs listened to entertainers but the reality is that they admit there are more people AFK that ATK in the game and that is damaging the game and taxing system resources.
As for cheaters, well lets see, hmmm. You stand at a spawn point and endlessly killNPC and loot them but you aren't there or playing the game. You set up a macro to loot one of the dungeons, but again you aren't there playing the game. You master several professions, much of it without playing the game yourself but letting the computer do the work. Those are all cheats and exploits that people use to get an advantage in selleable items, experience, or other benefits from the game mechanics. Yes it is cheating, it may currently beaccepted by SOE but that doesn't change the fact that you are exploiting game mechanics to unfairly benefit your self at the expense of others. Its also stealing because your AFK bot is using system resources that you would not normally use, your account is active at off times for yourself but peak times for me causing my experience to be lessened through lag, inability to get loot or use game resources your robot is hogging, etc.
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:17 am
#146
LyteFoot wrote:
Actually you are wrong the recursive macro wasn't at all because of Ents, we have been complaining about it since go live. I sure wish the devs listened to entertainers but the reality is that they admit there are more people AFK that ATK in the game and that is damaging the game and taxing system resources.
As for cheaters, well lets see, hmmm. You stand at a spawn point and endlessly killNPC and loot them but you aren't there or playing the game. You set up a macro to loot one of the dungeons, but again you aren't there playing the game. You master several professions, much of it without playing the game yourself but letting the computer do the work. Those are all cheats and exploits that people use to get an advantage in selleable items, experience, or other benefits from the game mechanics. Yes it is cheating, it may currently beaccepted by SOE but that doesn't change the fact that you are exploiting game mechanics to unfairly benefit your self at the expense of others. Its also stealing because your AFK bot is using system resources that you would not normally use, your account is active at off times for yourself but peak times for me causing my experience to be lessened through lag, inability to get loot or use game resources your robot is hogging, etc.
sorry but i cant disagree with u anymore, if its using an ingame macro then it is in no way a cheat or an exploit, thats liek saying people who run a center of being macro to redo it every 32 or so seconds are exploits. It may be cheap to do so but ive never done it anyway but it is in no way a cheat or exploit.
as for the red higlight, there are no ingame mechanics that are allow u to do that, plz dont get a third party program mixed up with a ingame macro. 1 is an exploit or cheat the other is perfectly legal. If its accepted by soe then it isnt cheating as they consider it is fair and it is there game. yes it may hurt others but it will hurt others just as much to go about and remove recursive macros that benifit people that play the game. And no i dont support afk macroers, its wrong morally but as a cheat or exploit it isnt.
Petronela
Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:37 am
#147
Gotainllyod wrote:so basically because of the entertainers whineing, i wont be able to use any recursive macros to aid me in pvp anymore. Thanks guys and gals you just made this game 50% less fun for me. remeber not all of us want to sit and talk to people in cantinas all day as it isnt our thing, but because us that dont choose to do that want to play the rest of the content in the game, we are being punished for it. Btw u guys do realise tha recursive macros going away is gonna screw with ATK people as much as it is afk people, Recursive macros gone = no macros to aid your dancing and music playing. Anyway flame em all you want its my opinion and i pay the 45 bucks a month for my 3 accounts just the same as anyone else does.
If there ever is going to be an action taken against recursive macros it definitely wont be because of entertainers but due to ill effect recursive macro has on game play for everyone.
The spam and lag generated by players who are not there is putting a serious strain on the stability of all servers.
Macro-killing and macro-looting while sleeping/working/having_a_romantic_dinner is basically a borderline of exploit.
Also please do take a moment to note the difference in recursive macro and macro, they are not the same thing.
Sure you may have to take a moment to write a longer macro you use in PvP instead of one short one with endless loop, but it will still be as effective.
Personally I wish the Devs would rather figure out a way to end the recursive macro abuse without taking it away from us, all they would have to do is disabling a players option of faking ATK and once the AFK tag pops up it could automatically /dump all macros running.
But then that would be too logical of a solution:-p
Anyways, please do not take your anger out on us, because I am willing to bet my last credit the Devs decision to finally look in to this problem was not meant as a favor to entertainers.
Deli'ah
rayill
Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:42 am
#148
Just because you can use the ingame mechanics to do something doesn't make it right.
There have been plenty of people who have used in game mechanics, such as the macro system, to create instances that have brought entire servers down. Just because you have the ability to do it in game does not make it OK.
The Macro system was intended to create opportunities to ease the play mode of the game. Not having to press a key every 2, 3 or 10 seconds is easier. However, that does not grant people to arbitrarily use that same system to automate their characters.
Entertainers have a problem with the automation of characters. We don't have a problem for legitimate uses that actually ease the ability to play the game. Having suffered from both Carpal Tunnel and Ulna Neuorapathy, I understand how much pain it can be to have nerve problems. That doesn't mean that I have the right to do whatever I want with the macro system. The only reason the macros are having to be looked at is because people are using the system to bypass the in game system that would normally log out an idle character. They are exploiting macros in order to obtain the ability to stay in the game. That's why they are looking at the system because these exploitive macros are causing unneccessary drain and usage on the servers.
I know plenty of Musicians and Dancers who use recursive macros for performances and songs. They aren't happy about the proposed change because it means they will have to possibly find another way depending on how the developers deal with this situation. They have not said how they are going to deal with it yet, but from what they have said, they are going to look into ways to maintain the ease of use for people who do legitimately use the macro system and recursive macros.
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:42 am
#149
rayill wrote:
Just because you can use the ingame mechanics to do something doesn't make it right.
There have been plenty of people who have used in game mechanics, such as the macro system, to create instances that have brought entire servers down. Just because you have the ability to do it in game does not make it OK.
The Macro system was intended to create opportunities to ease the play mode of the game. Not having to press a key every 2, 3 or 10 seconds is easier. However, that does not grant people to arbitrarily use that same system to automate their characters.
Entertainers have a problem with the automation of characters. We don't have a problem for legitimate uses that actually ease the ability to play the game. Having suffered from both Carpal Tunnel and Ulna Neuorapathy, I understand how much pain it can be to have nerve problems. That doesn't mean that I have the right to do whatever I want with the macro system. The only reason the macros are having to be looked at is because people are using the system to bypass the in game system that would normally log out an idle character. They are exploiting macros in order to obtain the ability to stay in the game. That's why they are looking at the system because these exploitive macros are causing unneccessary drain and usage on the servers.
I know plenty of Musicians and Dancers who use recursive macros for performances and songs. They aren't happy about the proposed change because it means they will have to possibly find another way depending on how the developers deal with this situation. They have not said how they are going to deal with it yet, but from what they have said, they are going to look into ways to maintain the ease of use for people who do legitimately use the macro system and recursive macros.
but the sytem is designed in a way that they should be able to handle the afk person, look at it this way if the system was not designed in a way that it could nothandle this person afk then when this person isnt afk is it not the same?? Sorry guys but the system is designed to handle AFK people asthose people also play not afk from time to time and tie up exactly the same resources whatever way,and therefore it'snot a viable excuse
rayill
Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:58 am
#150
Ok, let me explain this...
A computer and server has a set amount of system resources. The longer one person stays "attached" to the server or leaves their computer on, the more system resources are used. The more people that perpetually do this and stay in the same area, causes lag and server instability. This is just the same as the person who leaves their computer on for days on end. Your system slows down and becomes increasingly more stable. It doesn't matter if you left programs running or not. There is a limit to how much stress the system can take. The more people bypass the AFK logout, the more instable the servers become.
Sure the servers are going to have to be reset every day so that they can refresh the system memory, but the system resources and memory will not be gobbled up so quickly if people would not leave themselves logged in. This is the difference between letting people stay in AFK and forcing them to logout. Bypassing AFK makes it harder for people who can't afford high end equipment to even play because some people feel the need to bypass the auto logout feature.
Now, you may argue that you can leave your computer on months at a time with no problem. This is but one computer. The servers have literally thousands of people logging on to them each day. Of theses thousands, at least one hundred accounts are likely to be left on all day and night from server up to server down, absorbing these resources. Your one computer by itself may not experience instability, but if you had thousands of computers attaching to your one machine and one hundred of them were constantly on, you would experience instability.
This is one of these instances where you have to look at the technical aspect of the servers. The equipment, where it is capable of handling the stress, is not intended to have this kind of daily stress. This stress is a detriment to everyone's play time on the servers, and this is likely one of the reasons why they are looking into it. It is more cost efficient to reduce the current stress than to upgrade each and every server.
Oqua
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:07 am
#151
Gotain,
The devs have even said that macros were put in place to ease the strain of doing some jobs such as crafting. They have also said that no where was it ever intended for a whole profession to be replaced by NPC afk'ers. That is a known abuse by some greedy people who figure they should "get their moneys worth while they are busy with rl things".
Now, you can come here and argue till your face turns blue for all I care, saying the same thing over and over again. Its not going to change the above stated facts though. You can try and place the blame all on the feet of the entertainers if that makes you feel better, and thats fine...more power to you.
You should know though that afk play has affected not just entertainers. We haven't been the only ones complaining about it. Think about afk looters, afk camping spawns, afk rooftop jedis....see? those have nothing to do with entertaining. Those are all done with macros that use in game mechanics...no third party macros there.
The only difference between entertainers and those instances is that afk'ing is ruining our whole class....afk'ing is ruining our whole viability in the game.
Oh, and before you try and come back by saying I don't know how it is in any other profession other then dancing...think again.
I have ground out every profession imaginable. I have a jedi. I PvE extensively. I used to PvP extensively (before it got completely messed up). Most entertainers aren't "just entertainers". Most of us have experience with various professions. Can you say the same about the entertainer profession? I don't think you can, especially when you summed up our main"problem/goal" so well...what was it you said? "We want to force people to sit and talk with us?" (I am paraphrasing so forgive if its not verbatim).
With that one phrase, I think you prove you don't know thing one about what it is to be an entertainer.
So please, save your ill thought out arguments for some other topic. 
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:14 am
#152
rayill wrote:
Ok, let me explain this...
A computer and server has a set amount of system resources. The longer one person stays "attached" to the server or leaves their computer on, the more system resources are used. The more people that perpetually do this and stay in the same area, causes lag and server instability. This is just the same as the person who leaves their computer on for days on end. Your system slows down and becomes increasingly more stable. It doesn't matter if you left programs running or not. There is a limit to how much stress the system can take. The more people bypass the AFK logout, the more instable the servers become.
Sure the servers are going to have to be reset every day so that they can refresh the system memory, but the system resources and memory will not be gobbled up so quickly if people would not leave themselves logged in. This is the difference between letting people stay in AFK and forcing them to logout. Bypassing AFK makes it harder for people who can't afford high end equipment to even play because some people feel the need to bypass the auto logout feature.
Now, you may argue that you can leave your computer on months at a time with no problem. This is but one computer. The servers have literally thousands of people logging on to them each day. Of theses thousands, at least one hundred accounts are likely to be left on all day and night from server up to server down, absorbing these resources. Your one computer by itself may not experience instability, but if you had thousands of computers attaching to your one machine and one hundred of them were constantly on, you would experience instability.
This is one of these instances where you have to look at the technical aspect of the servers. The equipment, where it is capable of handling the stress, is not intended to have this kind of daily stress. This stress is a detriment to everyone's play time on the servers, and this is likely one of the reasons why they are looking into it. It is more cost efficient to reduce the current stress than to upgrade each and every server.
yes but my arguement still stands is it not the same as a person staying logged on and at the keyboard all day, i know plenty of people that do. So my arguement is along the lines that the system is designed around people being logged on all day and all night asusay and therefore it shouldnt and doesnt affect your gameplay anymore than those that are ATK.
rayill
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:23 am
#153
Gotainllyod wrote:
yes but my arguement still stands is it not the same as a person staying logged on and at the keyboard all day, i know plenty of people that do. So my arguement is along the lines that the system is designed around people being logged on all day and all night asusay and therefore it shouldnt and doesnt affect your gameplay anymore than those that are ATK.
How many of those people that you know stay in the same place the entire time, hardly moving? Are they constantly running the same macro the entire time?
Yes, the servers and the system are designed around being able to handle some people being logged on all day and all night, but those people do not stay in the same place, running a certain string of commands over and over. Sure, they may run some recursive macros, but they are not constantly running.
However, I can tell that you don't believe people AFK are causing system resources problem. All that server lag is just my imagination or my "crappy" computer. Granted, my computer is not even a year old, and it was spec-ed out to be a high end gaming machine. I got this computer before the massive holo giveaway, and I never once had a problem with lag before then. So, it must just be the deterioration of the goods in the computer that is causing the lag and crashes...
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:26 am
#154
Oqua wrote:
Gotain,
The devs have even said that macros were put in place to ease the strain of doing some jobs such as crafting. They have also said that no where was it ever intended for a whole profession to be replaced by NPC afk'ers. That is a known abuse by some greedy people who figure they should "get their moneys worth while they are busy with rl things".
Now, you can come here and argue till your face turns blue for all I care, saying the same thing over and over again. Its not going to change the above stated facts though. You can try and place the blame all on the feet of the entertainers if that makes you feel better, and thats fine...more power to you.
You should know though that afk play has affected not just entertainers. We haven't been the only ones complaining about it. Think about afk looters, afk camping spawns, afk rooftop jedis....see? those have nothing to do with entertaining. Those are all done with macros that use in game mechanics...no third party macros there.
The only difference between entertainers and those instances is that afk'ing is ruining our whole class....afk'ing is ruining our whole viability in the game.
Oh, and before you try and come back by saying I don't know how it is in any other profession other then dancing...think again.
I have ground out every profession imaginable. I have a jedi. I PvE extensively. I used to PvP extensively (before it got completely messed up). Most entertainers aren't "just entertainers". Most of us have experience with various professions. Can you say the same about the entertainer profession? I don't think you can, especially when you summed up our main"problem/goal" so well...what was it you said? "We want to force people to sit and talk with us?" (I am paraphrasing so forgive if its not verbatim).
With that one phrase, I think you prove you don't know thing one about what it is to be an entertainer.
So please, save your ill thought out arguments for some other topic.
my arguements are as valid as yours are,my opinion counts as much as yours do, after all we pay the same money to play this game.And yes i have played entertainer and i did enjoy it, so please dontgo putting words into my mouth.I dont have a jedi but i havent ever gone with the crowd and never will as it really isnt worth my time. You can sit there and say yove done both extensively, i have PvE'd since day 1 of the game and PvP'd since day 3, thats before buffs,armor and foods. Yet again i never sat there and claimed any of those above sentences and i do agree that something needs to be done. But my arguement is that its not just recursive macro's ruining the game. If soe took the time to actully redo the proffessions and redo the GCW and pvp and PvE earlier on none of this would have happened. It has only happened because people dont feel like spending hours repeatedly doing the same thing to achieve a very small reward. You just have too look at proffesions like ranger and squad leader to know how broken this game is, they have commands and abilitys which have not worked properly since the game was launched. Entertainers should be glad that they have a reasonably unbroken proffesion and that they have recieved at least some love from the DEV's since the game launch. If my arguement is ill concived then yours is just as ill concieved. anyway flame away seems the only opinion that counts to you guys is the pro lobby so whatever.
Just thought of something else too, exactly how many of those proffesions did u take the time to play?? Because my bets if u took the time to play those however many proffesions u did then u would realise just how broken some of them are.
Message Edited by Gotainllyod on 11-11-2004 08:36 AM
rayill
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:49 am
#155
Gotainllyod wrote:
rayill wrote:
Gotainllyod wrote:
yes but my arguement still stands is it not the same as a person staying logged on and at the keyboard all day, i know plenty of people that do. So my arguement is along the lines that the system is designed around people being logged on all day and all night asusay and therefore it shouldnt and doesnt affect your gameplay anymore than those that are ATK.
How many of those people that you know stay in the same place the entire time, hardly moving? Are they constantly running the same macro the entire time?
Yes, the servers and the system are designed around being able to handle some people being logged on all day and all night, but those people do not stay in the same place, running a certain string of commands over and over. Sure, they may run some recursive macros, but they are not constantly running.
However, I can tell that you don't believe people AFK are causing system resources problem. All that server lag is just my imagination or my "crappy" computer. Granted, my computer is not even a year old, and it was spec-ed out to be a high end gaming machine. I got this computer before the massive holo giveaway, and I never once had a problem with lag before then. So, it must just be the deterioration of the goods in the computer that is causing the lag and crashes...
no its not your imagination and its sure as hell not your computer, but even before there were all these afk people as usay "using system resources" the lag was worse and the servers alot less stable, I dont believe afk people are the sole cause of your lag problems no, i do believe they are doing something that is morally wrong and unfair though. Anyway just another one of my ill concoeved arguements.
I got tired of grey on black. Hehe.
Ok, see for me, the lag wasn't worse until after the amount of AFK grew exponentially. Before then, when I had lag, SOE had not upgraded the servers and I was running a middle of the road Franken-computer. Some of the stuff in themachine was good, but many of it was outdated. After the server upgrade and my computer upgrade, I had flawless operation of SWG. As the hologrind began and AFKing grew to absurd proportions, it was like I was back on my old computer. Even with the graphics and options all turned down (which I shouldn't have to do on my machine), I still experience a disproportionate amount of lag.
Other MMORPGs have the same amount of people on for the same amount of time, and they don't have the kind of substantial lag that SWG has. I've played them enough to know this. I never had the problems with lag in those games. These are games that use just as good of graphics and the same amount of resources; yet, one creates more lag than others. My experiences are that people abusing the macro system is what is causing that (in addition to these people all clustering totwo or threelocations).I am sure that there are other reasons that cause the lag, but if you cluster a bunch of people running cyclical programs into a small section, they are not only overloading the servers but they are also overloading all the other people who have to try and load all their activity. I can turn AFK spam off all I want, but my computer still has to load their avatar and animations. That still sucks up my system resources, and it still sucks up server resources.
But, there you go. I'll leave this be so that I can actually pretend to be working for at least part of today.
Oqua
Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:19 am
#156
Gotain,
Try and actually read what entertainers are saying.
Try and actually reread what you are saying in your posts. I got all that from the words typed out by your little fingers. Normally I loathe text as a medium to converse, because its so easy to misconstrue what a person really means just by words. The one thing I do love about it though is its sooo easy to go back and see what a person typed.
Since you make assumptions (yes, thats you doing it mister) that the reason I did jedi was because I was "following the crowd", try again.
Want to know why I ground out professions?
Because the one profession I really wanted to play I went on hiatus from. I wanted to give this game a chance. So I looked for other ways to entertain myself in the hopes that they would fix the profession I loved...fix the professions that are being ruined by afk zombies/bots.
I learned how to play every one, quite proficiently too. Yes I do know that many professions have specials that don't work. Thats what the coming revamps are going to address yes? What I do know though is that I could still PLAY them. No where does super armor, super buffs, super weapons make any content un-doable by me as a fighter person.
Want to know the set of classes that are totally unplayable and have no function with bots and zombies out there? Oh yes, those are the atk dancers/musicians/entertainers.
This is about discussing something taken out that was an abuse done by some select greedy selfish individuals. Because they wanted more...because they wanted stuff now...because they wanted stuff easy.
Not about you trying to go onto a tirade about every other profession. Please save it. If you can find another argument with merit that doesn't use your "nuh uh" logic, then by all means I wish to listen and learn. Otherwise, I will lump you in with all the other buffbot champions, and the people who don't know what it is to be an entertainer...a real entertainer.
P.S. And if you were an entertainer for longer then it took you to grind something out...shame on you for saying all we want is to make people talk to us. Those areyour words sugar, not mine. Silly me though for even responding back to you on this thread. When you can't even comprehend what YOU write, how in the heavens name do I expect you to comprehend what other people are saying here.