Entertainer Archive
Thread: I asked...I got an answer. :(
Oqua
Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:28 am
#131
Yes, its nice that they came to actually speak on the dancer forums...but just basically telling us to take a break?
Um, okay.
What about those of us who have been on a self imposed break since January (when the hologrind was so ridiculous, you couldn't even find room to dance in cantina's due to the afk zombies littering the floor)?
I have other characters that I play because of my "break", but again, I can only kill and tailor so much before I am looking for other stuffies to do. And no, I am not saying people have to entertain me to make my gameplay fun. I am quite content making my own fun, thank you. *small smile*
My point in all this is I really do love the concept of being an "artist" in game, which is how I view being an entertainer. I haven't been able to do that at all really, since I am more of a casualplayer and when I do log on my dancer I normally just head to a cantina to dance and visit with the people there. By casual I mean playing when RL/time allows; sometimes that is for little then an hour, sometimes more. So its hard for me to go and find a dance troupe or spend hours waiting for a "gig" or what not.
With the minimal amount of time to play, I want to have fun when I do. Do you know how fun it has been for the past nine months? Not much, hence the self-imposed break.
Why when I saw the "take a break" stance being advocated, it made me ill.
Before I get some know-it-all person coming and telling me "just quit then if you don't like it", I put thought and time into the people I have created here in this galaxy. I am not the person who re-rolls whenever the urge suits them. Goodness, I did jedi on Tryna because I didn't want to drop Dancer on Oqua. I have persona's for each of my little people, with affection for them as well.
I think I have played "nice" and not griefed anyone in game...I think I have been patient as the zombies/bots over ran every cantina.....and for what?
So someone can just tell me "don't know when, don't know what, but we will do something eventually...if you dont' like it, take a break?".
I have been taking a break Sir....for a long time. What's your answer to me then? My love for my profession, my love for my little people, my love for the friends I have in game, and my love for the "idea" that I am a part of the Star Wars galaxy is what has kept me going.
I would think that would be the audience that they would want to target to keep playing this game. Not the audience that "finishes the quest" and asks "so what else you have to entertain me".
I don't know.....
Just venting I suppose, because it seems that just because a guy with a red name comes and post I am supposed to be thrilled.
Well sorry, I am not impressed, not thrilled, not anything other then sad, very sad.
*deep sigh*
Right now I am looking for a way to make being a dancer fun for me, I really am (in fact desperately trying to at this point),but I am at a loss. Should anyone have any thoughts on how they go about making it fun (keeping time constraints in mind) please let me know.
Mind you I have explored different areas/all professions in game, and have other characters I do play actively. What I am looking for is a way to make dancer fun again. *sad sigh*
PoetDancer
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:06 pm
#132
After reading your post further, I agree that much of what we do is aimed at other players, but even you realize we need to make it worthwhile to do productive skill based things when nobody needs us. That's the big problem, isn't it? Because part of the reason we have unattendence is because there is no natural incentive to dance in an empty venue hoping someone will show up to tip us, and there is no natural incentive for a patron to stand in a cantina hoping an entertainer will show. Its what I mean by solitaire aspects:the ability to make credits or interact with the system on some level without involving direct contact with someone else. This can be accomplished in many ways, but we need some sort of incentive for dancers to have a game seperate from direct contact with players, if only to make sure there are enough of them out there on the chance they do need us.
Now medics can craft items to store on a vendor for players to pick up as the market shall bear. Smugglers create spice, as well as have increased output from mission terminals. I am not asking for us to be crafters or anything else like that. But what incentive does a dancer have to dance when nobody is around to dance for? Every class butImage Design, Dancer, Entertainer, and Musicianhas some sort of skill based function that is useful at times when no players are about. And that's why their games aren't suffering as urgently as ours.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 04:11 PM
Ikewe
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:19 pm
#133
Actually I think she's agreeing that we need to have some support system for when there are no players around. She's just saying that it should still be interaction based...interaction with NPC's but still interaction based. When I first started dancing it was in a cantina that wasn't used regularly (players had gotten used to it being empty). To pass the time while I danced in the empty cantina, I would regularly carry on conversations with various NPC's in the cantina. Sure they were very one sided and I probably sounded like I was a raving lunatic but it was my way of passing the time. Before long players began to realize I wouldregularly be in the cantina and soon enough it was a jumping place. I think having interaction with NPC's is an interesting idea and could be one that would help keep me entertained while I danced away in the less frequently visited locales. It's much more interesting *to me* than the potential to create performance disks which I then sell on the bazaar. Perhaps both changes could be implemented to satisfy the different playstyles/likes of the entertainers.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Xyrdre
Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:35 pm
#134
Okies... a lot of people are still pretty upset at the "take a break" thing. I didn't read Tyrant's comments the way that some seem to have.
You can interpret suggestions to "take a break" as either extreme:
"You're not as high a priority as other things. It would be best if you all just went away until we feel like getting back to you.", or
"We recognize that you have serious issues, but wejust don't have the resources to fixeveryone's valid problems at the same time. We've been forced to prioritize, and we're asking everyone to be understanding of these limitations. We want you to be able to stay in SWG and have fun. But,if waiting through this time is going to destroy your chances of having fun, there's no reason to put yourself through that pain - we'd rather have you step back for a bit while we're still kind of on good terms than completely and utterlydestroy the relationship."
I never took Tyrant's words as anything other than the latter above. My take.
I really do think we're in a kind of marriage counseling with SOE right now. Not just us, but a lot of professions, playstyles... really, kinda everyone in the game is hot over something or another. If a particularmarriage is getting to the absolute breaking point, a temporary seperation is often a good way to cool things down. Other marriages not pushed to the breaking point can continue to work things out along the way.
We can twist words to have meanings that we want to hear... even negative meanings. It's normal, people do this all the time. Those that are feeling beat up will often subconsciously keep looking for evidence of beatings, and sure enough, if you look hard enough, you'll find it.
Tyrant and Tiggs are my new Dev Heroes. They not only have talked to us, but I haven't seen any evidence at attempts to pull snow-jobs over on us. I've heardthat Tyrant has been referred to as SOE's "no" man... he'll tell you no in a heartbeat. To me, that's shooting straight, not trying to sugar-coat anything, or play political word games to spin things. I appreciate someone who'll come right out and say, "no, and here's why." Much better than being snowed.
Through all of the previous silence, I've wanted nothing more than to hear it straight - even if it wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear, I'd rather know than speculate. Speculation left us firmly believing that the Gods had abandoned us utterly, and perhaps even hated us actively, even though that really doesn't make sense as a way to treat paying customers. Yet, many of us truly began to believe that, and some still do.
Imagined threats can create far greater fear than known ones. And that's where we've been. Now that I've seen some communication, I'm hoping it continues. Come on in and tell me "hell no, and here's why". Because when I hear that, it means a lot more when I hear "hell yes, but it might take time". Getting the straight dope works on both sides... if you can rely on the "no", you can rely on the "yes" as well.
DanceRulez
Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:37 pm
#135
PoetDancer wrote:
But what incentive does a dancer have to dance when nobody is around to dance for? Every class but Image Design, Dancer, Entertainer, and Musician has some sort of skill based function that is useful at times when no players are about. And that's why their games aren't suffering as urgently as ours.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but all these classes do have skills that you can use when no one is around and that get you XP. ID's can do work on themselves and get XP at any time, though granted the XP bonus is half that of working on someone else, but it is an option. Similarly dancers and can dance and musicians can play anytime, anywhere and get dance or music XP, though again not as much when playing in a group or for others. At least as far as the dance/music side of it, you might choose to do so to practice a look or try to put a routine together or just try to familiarize yourself more with what you can do. I don't expect I'm telling you anything you don't know, though, so perhaps you meant something else by this?
PoetDancer
Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:12 pm
#136
All I'm suggesting is that I think a dancerneeds some sort of thing they can do to "pay the bills" if there is nobody around. Because the terminals are not cutting it, and even if they started to pay better, value one's action bar over any attempt to be amusing.
I'd also like something I could do to interact with other players who may not see me face-to-face. Slicers for example can slice weapons while other players are gone. Crafters can craft items to leave on the bazaar for other players to buy. I'm not saying I want this class to be a crafting class, but I want to have some sort of ability to leave the server "better than when I left it." Right now, a dancer is only as useful as the amount of time they are logged on. And therefore, some dancers (AFK) never log off.
Maisland
Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:28 pm
#137
People like you are my favorite audiences. I only spend time in a cantina when I amATK and always try to /greet as many people as I can. I never beg for tips, though I have (before I discovered Accargm... did I spell that right?) asked for a heal if my action got low, and I always personally /thank anyone who tips or heals me. It has also been my experience that people who want live entertainers are in the majority of those coming into the cantinas.
Grey_Death wrote:
Pardon my jumping in, as I'm not a dancer nor entertainer of any sort, but I'd like to add something I hope makes you at least a little happy...
I, for one, when seeking an entertainer ALWAYS send a tell first, and engage in some conversation to verify that I'm using a living, breathing entertainer. I also tip for the time you folks spend for my benefit.
I also urge my guildmates to do the same.
Now, I will admit it's great finding a macro performer when I'm playing at odd hours, or there's no one else around, but this is always my LAST choice.
Entertainers are an important part of our lives here in SWG, even though some of you don't nearly get the props in game you should. I'm sure the devs know this, andwill take care of you as soon as they can, but they have some seriously heavy work ahead of them, too.
I'd suggest joining a guild if you haven't already and make the use of LIVE entertainers an issue during guild meetings. If they won't support you, find another guild that will.
Also, don't just dance or play music. Engage folks in conversationas they come into the cantina, greet them, ask them how they are. I've seen many entertainers that act no different from the AFK performers, and that's sad.
I'm sure many of you know this already, but I hope that hearing it from someone who seeks out your services will help you feel a little better about your profession.
I'llhead back to my proper boards now
Hope to see you all in the cantinas
Believe it or not, I think we DO get more xp if we are watched. I believe that this is the very basis of why you get more xp in a large group (because every dancer in the group is watching all of the dancers and every musician is listening to all the musicians). In part, I base this belief on what happens when I perform at a starport... you see, I have noticed that when I am at a starport and people start watching me, my xp per tick goes up. Now this may be observer error, but that is what seems to me to be happening.
DanceRulez wrote:
On this point I have to disagree with you somewhat. I think merely by going into the entertainer profession that we want to entertain, as in entertain others. I think it is in the nature of the profession that we chose that some part of our advancement should depend on interaction with others and not just functioning on our own by ourselves. In the extreme case I don't think we would have much fun if all we did was practice our dance and music moves in our own little corner of the game world separated off from everyone else because they had no interest in us, and we had no interest in doing anything for them. However I do think that limiting this interaction with others to just healing combat players is too restrictive. That's why in my "Where should we go from here" post I suggested that we should get some kind of XP anytime anyone watches us - even NPC's (After all combat types can get XP by going out and killing off NPC groups, so why can't we get some kind of XP when nearby NPC's stop and clap for us for a while?). I think we should be getting some kind of performance XP anytime someone stops to watch or listen to us whereever we are, as long as we are performing. Of course with this sort of a system we could be our own audience, but that might be a small group. I still think our advancement should be tied to seeking out an audience whether at a street performance, at a wedding, or back in the cantinas, but I would just like to see a broadening of our audience so that it is not limited to fatigued combat players.
Message Edited by Maisland on 11-08-2004 11:31 PM
DanceRulez
Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:30 am
#138
PoetDancer wrote:5) We are perhaps the only classes in the game where we have no special relationship with the system. Our skills, more than any other set of professions, rely on other players to advance and grow. There is absolutely no solitaire aspect to what we do in the game. The quality of our gameplay session rests entirely on being used by other players, which means if other players cannot or will not use what we have to offer, we have no chance to succeed or advance. I would humbly ask for a worthwhile function we can do by ourselves and for ourselves so if we find ourselves in a position where players aren't treating us very well, we can abandon them and still have a game to play.
On this point I have to disagree with you somewhat. I think merely by going into the entertainer profession that we want to entertain, as in entertain others. I think it is in the nature of the profession that we chose that some part of our advancement should depend on interaction with others and not just functioning on our own by ourselves. In the extreme case I don't think we would have much fun if all we did was practice our dance and music moves in our own little corner of the game world separated off from everyone else because they had no interest in us, and we had no interest in doing anything for them. However I do think that limiting this interaction with others to just healing combat players is too restrictive. That's why in my "Where should we go from here" post I suggested that we should get some kind of XP anytime anyone watches us - even NPC's (After all combat types can get XP by going out and killing off NPC groups, so why can't we get some kind of XP when nearby NPC's stop and clap for us for a while?). I think we should be getting some kind of performance XP anytime someone stops to watch or listen to us whereever we are, as long as we are performing. Of course with this sort of a system we could be our own audience, but that might be a small group. I still think our advancement should be tied to seeking out an audience whether at a street performance, at a wedding, or back in the cantinas, but I would just like to see a broadening of our audience so that it is not limited to fatigued combat players.
Message Edited by DanceRulez on 11-08-2004 03:09 PM
DanceRulez
Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:01 pm
#139
Maisland wrote:Believe it or not, I think we DO get more xp if we are watched. I believe that this is the very basis of why you get more xp in a large group (because every dancer in the group is watching all of the dancers and every musician is listening to all the musicians). In part, I base this belief on what happens when I perform at a starport... you see, I have noticed that when I am at a starport and people start watching me, my xp per tick goes up. Now this may be observer error, but that is what seems to me to be happening.DanceRulez wrote:
On this point I have to disagree with you somewhat. I think merely by going into the entertainer profession that we want to entertain, as in entertain others. I think it is in the nature of the profession that we chose that some part of our advancement should depend on interaction with others and not just functioning on our own by ourselves. In the extreme case I don't think we would have much fun if all we did was practice our dance and music moves in our own little corner of the game world separated off from everyone else because they had no interest in us, and we had no interest in doing anything for them. However I do think that limiting this interaction with others to just healing combat players is too restrictive. That's why in my "Where should we go from here" post I suggested that we should get some kind of XP anytime anyone watches us - even NPC's (After all combat types can get XP by going out and killing off NPC groups, so why can't we get some kind of XP when nearby NPC's stop and clap for us for a while?). I think we should be getting some kind of performance XP anytime someone stops to watch or listen to us whereever we are, as long as we are performing. Of course with this sort of a system we could be our own audience, but that might be a small group. I still think our advancement should be tied to seeking out an audience whether at a street performance, at a wedding, or back in the cantinas, but I would just like to see a broadening of our audience so that it is not limited to fatigued combat players.
Well, ok, you're absolutely right on this. In the current system we do get a Dance/Music XP boost anytime anyone watches/listens to us, and anytime we're in a group when others are doing the same thing we're doing (dancing/playing music). I'm not sure if there's an XP boost to dancers from musicians and vice versa in the same group. I think that's not the case, but I might be wrong. That, though, was not really the point of my statement above, although I did not make that clear. If you want to see what I was really talking about, I would refer you to my post in the "Where should we go from here?" thread. The point I was trying to make is that as an entertainer we rely on Ent. Healing XP to master our profession, but that XP can come from only mind injured or fatigued players and in only certain places. I was suggesting that we could move away from that kind of model to one where we can earn a different kind of XP, which I called "Performance XP", that we could earn from anyone anywhere we perform - like the way we get bonuses to dance/music XP now (which might mean that the Dance/Music XP system might need to be modified as well to avoid the dual XP gain for the same thing). Who knows if they would ever implement such a system, but I was merely suggesting it. I apologize for not being more clear in my last post.
rayill
Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:09 pm
#140
There is a marginal XP boost to Musicians in a Dancer group and vice versa. Dancers don't normally see this, but Musicians often do. If there wasn't some sort of cross boost, there would be no reason for Dancers and Musicians to join up in the same group.
Gotainllyod
Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:21 am
#141
so basically because of the entertainers whineing, i wont be able to use any recursive macros to aid me in pvp anymore. Thanks guys and gals you just made this game 50% less fun for me. remeber not all of us want to sit and talk to people in cantinas all day as it isnt our thing, but because us that dont choose to do that want to play the rest of the content in the game, we are being punished for it. Btw u guys do realise tha recursive macros going away is gonna screw with ATK people as much as it is afk people, Recursive macros gone = no macros to aid your dancing and music playing. Anyway flame em all you want its my opinion and i pay the 45 bucks a month for my 3 accounts just the same as anyone else does.
kirah_ashlin
Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:50 am
#142
The recursive macro is NOT going away because of entertainers! You give us far too much credit for pull in this game. Please stop railroading threads to reiterate your gripes and laying unfounded blame at the feet of the wrong group of players. The reason the developers are looking into removing the recursive macro is because of CHEATERS! NOT entertainers.
Kareanne
Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:49 am
#143
Not all ATK ents want the recursive macros to go either. I'd much rather see an afk policy change that is enforced and the removal of /join.