Entertainer Archive
Thread: I asked...I got an answer. :(
Sunjammer
Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:12 pm
#118
My other character is a smuggler (among other things), and until recently I've kept up pretty well with the Smuggler forum. Like dancers and musicians, Smugglers suffer from a totally broken game. Like us they've been waiting a long long time for their issues to be addressed, and seen a lot of SOE promises that weren't kept. Like us they've got a perception of having been ignored and overlooked by the dev team. Like us they have a lot of great posts from players on how to fix their game that will probably never be implemented.
But I never once saw a post in the Smuggler forum from an Entertainer saying "ignore Smugglers' problems, we deserve the attention more." This is--what? The third Smuggler to complain in here?
Amscray, you jerks, you're giving your prof a bad name.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by PVP:
"Look at you two. George Lucas could spit on the wall and you two would stare at it for hours. Not me. No, I remember Howard the Duck. I remember The Ewok Adventure."
"Blasphemer!"
"Francis, no! Anger leads to the Dark Side!"
But I never once saw a post in the Smuggler forum from an Entertainer saying "ignore Smugglers' problems, we deserve the attention more." This is--what? The third Smuggler to complain in here?
Amscray, you jerks, you're giving your prof a bad name.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by PVP:
"Look at you two. George Lucas could spit on the wall and you two would stare at it for hours. Not me. No, I remember Howard the Duck. I remember The Ewok Adventure."
"Blasphemer!"
"Francis, no! Anger leads to the Dark Side!"
Drygo
Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:28 pm
#119
Selandria wrote:
Anyway, I understand that 'fixing' us is a complex issue and take time. But I too also feel some little things need to be done NOW instead of later. Alas, I don't have much hope for that. Not with the current stance that the CSRs have shown where they are defending buttbots over live players... That the CSRs have done nothing to the people running buffbots that have started harrasing live players... That, SOETyrant, is a mixed message you *NEED TO FIX RIGHT NOW*. If you make no technological changes at all, make a social change -- change the EULA to say unattended gameplay is against the rules and a bannable offense. The way it reads now, its only 3rd party macros that are against the rules -- this needs to change to include in-game macros exploited for unattended gameplay. Oh, but wait... This was already suggested and shot down which is why I have such a hard time believing the sincerity with which you state you want unattended gameplay to cease...
It seems like they don't want to do this. But, at the very least, there should be some sort of statement that says, "AFK play is at your own risk." That is, an overt master Rifleman is at risk of being mowed down by a novice pistoleer of the opposite faction should he go afk. Just like the afk spawn campers are at risk of an NPC mob killing them while they are not at the computer. An AFK entertainer who willingly and knowingly puts a /join in the macro should be at absolute risk of having to deal with the consequences of having that /join in their macro. They can simply *remove* the /join if they don't want to be grouped with a militant live entertainer. But, they choose to have it, and they choose to go afk...willingly. They need to be *fully* prepared to deal with the consequences of *whatever* happens to their toon while they are away. If they don't want to deal with that, they need to take steps with the game mechanics to avoid it. Just as they like to use the excuse that it's game mechanics so it's all fair play, then it goes both ways. It is game mechanics for me to invite a buffbot and hold it hostage. They have several ingame tools to avoid this...
Doriana
Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:35 am
#120
Drygo wrote:
But, at the very least, there should be some sort of statement that says, "AFK play is at your own risk."
The stupid little saying in the holocron help says this.
But the real issue is that things are SAID but not backed up.
An amusing side note to this is the guild buffbot who unidled and said something along the lines of "OH MY GOD AN IMP USED ME WHILE I WAS AFK!!!" and I almost fell out of my seat laughing.
Of COURSE the other faction uses bots. About the only thing that stops them is if they are overt and the bot is behind turrets, but then that only lasts as long as the turrets do.
Walls don't stop /invite or /watch, I've gotten buffs while standing outside and I've invited people to my group while standing inside. Deny service doesn't work. Cityban doesn't stop people from wandering around towns, just from getting inside civic buildings. All you need is the bot's name to get a buff from it and when it's spamming that it's time to invite for mind buff every 3 and a half minutes names aren't hard to get. And yet bots feel like they deserve to have control while they're not even there? Please.
Esharra
Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:50 am
#121
Doriana wrote:
An amusing side note to this is the guild buffbot who unidled and said something along the lines of "OH MY GOD AN IMP USED ME WHILE I WAS AFK!!!" and I almost fell out of my seat laughing.
hahahahah! Oh please make it stop! That is too funny!
Xyrdre
Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:18 am
#122
Drygo wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong...but from what I've read, it *sounds* like profs will be revamped in groups? Is that right. So, just because we're 2nd doesn't mean we're the 2nd to be revamped, it just means we're in the 2nd group...I *think*
This is how I understand it to be as well, yes. My guess is that if Smugglers get some sweet dev lovin' in the CU that it'll be more along the lines of refinement of combat issues along with everything else. I wouldn't think that adding Smugglers ability to Smuggle, for example,would be a part of that - so yes, they still need their revamp every bit as much as we do. And I do recall Panthu saying that we would be in the second group, so I think you're remembering it right. Unless we're both way off... 
Heh... this sounds like one more bot who's about to take steps to bring some more of Sirii's predictions true... bots denial of entire factional groups, or guilds... heh heh... the plot thickens?
Doriana wrote:
An amusing side note to this is the guild buffbot who unidled and said something along the lines of "OH MY GOD AN IMP USED ME WHILE I WAS AFK!!!" and I almost fell out of my seat laughing.
Garrade
Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:18 am
#123
Hi,
Thought I would like to add to this topic and hope that I don't appear to flame anyone, because that is the furtherest from my mind. Personally I don't see what the uproar is about the recursive ent macroing ie "buff bots".I have an entertainer alt as a musician that I take along where ever I or my group should be to give the added benifit of his services since the majority of entertainers tend not to stray to far from Theed or Coronet . From my experience you have guilds that have a 'buff bot' if you will logged on at any given time so members canrecieve buffs from their ents. You have other players that have their 'buff bots' located in the areas where most people go to hunt or go in search of docters buffs.Why hate the player that had the right idea about capitialising ona profession?Those people are very much contributing to players and to the SWG community that recieve their services. The question that is being asked as I see it is " How can this buff bot be ruining my profession when I am not logged on, when I am in a group or when they are not playing the game My way?"
I created my alt because when ever I went into a cantina in search of a buff the majority of entertainers are in group (Masters as well) thus denying their services should i want a mind buff (Youdo not get a maximum benifit froma group buff,in fact it is much weaker since most in group are not masters). But Isuspect that since the Village came into place most of the masters are just in a groupfor the benefit of ent xp so they can trade it in for Force XP. But the simplified version of why I take my alt along iswith me on myhunts is your not where I'm at .
Mostpeople I would venture to say like being an Entetainer. Even love it in fact! Hanging out in the cantinas , catching up on the latest gossip ,chatting it out with friends (maybe spying on the opposition 
" But, even so I still can't see my self pushing /flourish 1 , /flourish 2 and so on over and over. Or hanging out in a cantina for prolonged periods of time . And how does one justify a lone entertaing recieving a tip from a player for healing their battle fatigue inquick fashion when it was a group effort?Maybethat is the injustice of it ? I don't know.How aboutasking that Dancer and Musician get the ability to buff All mind stats (mind, focus and willpower) as well as their own instead of the way it is now. Keep asking for content for your profession more quests,songs and some new spiffy entertainer outfits. But, personally if itwas me and my profession wasn't any fun and not making me any creditsI would move along and find something that would.
" But, even so I still can't see my self pushing /flourish 1 , /flourish 2 and so on over and over. Or hanging out in a cantina for prolonged periods of time . And how does one justify a lone entertaing recieving a tip from a player for healing their battle fatigue inquick fashion when it was a group effort?Maybethat is the injustice of it ? I don't know.How aboutasking that Dancer and Musician get the ability to buff All mind stats (mind, focus and willpower) as well as their own instead of the way it is now. Keep asking for content for your profession more quests,songs and some new spiffy entertainer outfits. But, personally if itwas me and my profession wasn't any fun and not making me any creditsI would move along and find something that would.
Xyrdre
Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:45 am
#124
Garrade wrote:
Hi,
Thought I would like to add to this topic and hope that I don't appear to flame anyone, because that is the furtherest from my mind. Personally I don't see what the uproar is about the recursive ent macroing ie "buff bots".I have an entertainer alt as a musician that I take along where ever I or my group should be to give the added benifit of his services since the majority of entertainers tend not to stray to far from Theed or Coronet . From my experience you have guilds that have a 'buff bot' if you will logged on at any given time so members canrecieve buffs from their ents. You have other players that have their 'buff bots' located in the areas where most people go to hunt or go in search of docters buffs.Why hate the player that had the right idea about capitialising ona profession?Those people are very much contributing to players and to the SWG community that recieve their services. The question that is being asked as I see it is " How can this buff bot be ruining my profession when I am not logged on, when I am in a group or when they are not playing the game My way?"
I created my alt because when ever I went into a cantina in search of a buff the majority of entertainers are in group (Masters as well) thus denying their services should i want a mind buff (Youdo not get a maximum benifit froma group buff,in fact it is much weaker since most in group are not masters). But Isuspect that since the Village came into place most of the masters are just in a groupfor the benefit of ent xp so they can trade it in for Force XP. But the simplified version of why I take my alt along iswith me on myhunts is your not where I'm at .
Mostpeople I would venture to say like being an Entetainer. Even love it in fact! Hanging out in the cantinas , catching up on the latest gossip ,chatting it out with friends (maybe spying on the opposition
Prepare for... another Deila novel! Weeeee!
At risk of launching the same discussion all over again in a seperate thread, I'll address your questions. Most of these are old, old news, but perhaps you haven't been aware of most of the discussions.
On AFK, Buffbots, and Recursive Macro Reform
For specificinformation regarding how AFKing and buffbots have hurt the gameplay of players of the entertainer professions, I direct you to the history of primarily the Dancer and Musician forums. You have about a year and a half of threads to go through (only about the last 6 months or so regarding buffbots)... but it's all there. Wish I could narrow it down for you, but it's been problematic for that long.
Quick side comment regarding AFK or buffbots not "playing the game My way", it can be well argued that it is not a question of playstyle. Probably by definition we can say that AFK automation through macro use (be it for XP gain or buffbotting) is exactly the opposite of playing the game... it is using automated scripts to go through the motions of "playing" the game for you while you are not playing. And that's really thekey... macros perform all game functions when a game subscriber is not playing the game.Not playing the game, yet gaining the rewards of gameplay (XP, enhancements, credits, etc.)is not a playstyle. At best it is a "not-play" style, at worst, an exploit. It is not so much a question of differing playstyles, so much as it is the impact that the not-playing has had on actual players.
I think that most entertainer players (and sometimes combat players, in the cases of AFK loot camping) are, at the true core of things,more upset at the system that has allowed for the replacement of all game functions, than upset withthe individuals who take advantage of those systems. Things got more heated up at a player-to-player level when discussion started regarding the severe negative impact of the "not-players" on the game environment. Several of those that were using that macro system in a way not intended, but not explicitly forbidden, expressedthat (in so many words, and so often) that they simply didn't care about those negative effects. So, the players complained to the devs about the effects on the game of the not-players, and the devs took a very, very long time to even address the situation. In that delay, thingsbuilt upon themselves, and got very out of hand.
The developers have nowrealized (or, at least just now commented on) how problematicthe issue ofallowing complete automation of all game systemshas become (not just for the entertainer professions, but in many aspects of SWG), and are now looking to correct their mistakes. Hence the initial announcement that recursive macros would go away. Continuing thought on the subject has revealed that simple removal of recursive macros may not in fact achieve the desired effect, and so other methods are being sought.
On the ManyMisconceptions of Entertainment
Most ofthe comments in your post show misunderstandings, all too common, of how entertainment works. It's not that you're bad or foolish or anything... just that so many people simply don't know the truth of these things. The game manual, the in-game Holocron... none of these things have sufficiently explained how this stuff works, and it seems that most people just don't know. Including many, many more recent Entertainer players.
Master Dancers/Musicians in a group in cantinas are not denying their services to you for a buff. You appear to have the mistaken idea that you must be grouped with the entertainer to receive a buff. All too common now that players think this, and it's because of buffbots. The primary way that entertainers administer buffs to individualsis through a targeted command, and we can do that quite easily while in or out of any group.
Buff strength has absolutely nothing to do with averages of entertainer skill levels in a group. Your statementregarding group buffs being not of maximum benefit, and are"in fact much weaker since most in group are not masters" is... and I'm sorry to have to put it bluntly...completely wrong. A buff from a Master Dancer (at base, not counting any added skill mods from clothing) will be for an additional100% or your base Mind stat, with the buff'sduration being dictated by the number of flourishes performed during the buffing. This is the case whether the dancer is all alone, or in a group with 19 Novice Entertainers.
Most of the time, when Masters are in cantinagroups, it's not because they're grinding XP to convert at Aurillia. It's because we're helping out the leveling entertainers. Both we and the cantina visitors know that Masters heal mind wounds and BF much, much faster than lower level entertainers, and will watch or listen to us so that they can be on their way faster. If we are not in the group, we are gaining Entertainer Healing XP that we do not need anymore. If we are grouped with leveling entertainers, healing XP goes out to all members of that group... not divided amongst them, but granted in full-force, as if each group member was doing all of the healing themselves. It has largely become a courtesy that Masters show to leveling entertainers to filter that healing XP from our healing so that they can level an already very difficult to come by XP type.
Not enjoying pushing /flo 1, /flo 2 is certainly your call. Entertainer players don't mind pushing /flo 1, /flo 2, in order to create aesthetically pleasing performances. Being a full-timeentertainer is not for everyone, certainly. Hanging out in the cantina for prolonged periods of time used to be much more fun for us. Doing the exact things you mention... catching up on the latest gossip, chatting with friends, and having a great time! All that changed when AFKing got out of hand, right about the time of the hologrind... it just isn't the same experience when the place is overcrowded with people who aren't there, spamming "tipz n healz, plz" every few seconds, skill animating randomlyall over the floor when we used to be able to set up great looking shows,etc. Most of us left, since the environment changed so dramatically. Some left the cantinas, many left the game entirely. Wonder why live entertainers are now so rare?... there you go. AFKing and buffbotting didn't fill in for an entertainer shortage... they drove us out with macroed spam. Should be understandable... not many peopleenjoy spatial spam, and try to get away from it if they can't stop it.
Justifying tipping a lone entertainer is... well, up to you. But, that healing is not a group effort, by any means. If you watch a Novice Entertainer dance in a group with 19 Masters, you get healed at the rate that Novice Entertainer can heal you. If you watch a Master Dancer in a group with 19 Novice Entertainers, you get healed at Master rates. Again... there is no group averaging. You can tip a lone entertainer for healing you fast, you can tip for that entertainer providing you with a fun experience in the cantina while you're getting healed, you can tip that entertainer for choosing to be there and available for those things, rather than being out doing something else. Those thingswere supposed to be the basis for why combat players would tip entertainers in the first place. Most people agree that the breakdown of that tipping system came about when people started to question the worth of AFKentertainers, since there was zero effort required (playing the game isn't even required!)... and there is one example of how rampant, unchecked AFK has hurt the entertainer community. Our intended income method has been negated, in actual practice.
And finally, here's the thing. With such problems in the entertainer professions, it's not alwaysso simple as to just move along and find something else that would be more fun and make more credits. Many ex-entertainers did just that after being frustrated with the AFKers and buffbots... gave up on it, and left the professions (also why there became more of a shortage of entertainer players). For many of us though... we're playing SWG because there is (supposed to be ) this alternative way to play the game, besides being a combattant. We can grab weapons and kill things in any one of a hundred different games. What other game has Entertainers as a part of it? For a lot of us, that's why we're here... even why we're playing an MMO in the first place... and the ones that are still left trying to make these professions work for players are the ones that, even though it's incredibly frustrating right now, still think that it can be made to work. We think that the idea is there... though certainly not perfect in its implementation now... and that idea is worth fighting for.
) this alternative way to play the game, besides being a combattant. We can grab weapons and kill things in any one of a hundred different games. What other game has Entertainers as a part of it? For a lot of us, that's why we're here... even why we're playing an MMO in the first place... and the ones that are still left trying to make these professions work for players are the ones that, even though it's incredibly frustrating right now, still think that it can be made to work. We think that the idea is there... though certainly not perfect in its implementation now... and that idea is worth fighting for.
Beery
Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:59 am
#125
"The way it reads now, its only 3rd party macros that are against the rules"
Not true. Read the TOS. It says "you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play". It doesn't matter where the macros come from, or whether SOEs own macros allow unattended game play, If the macros issued by SOE allow unattended game play, according to the TOS, you're technically not allowed to use them. That means that anyone using the ui action toolbarSlot macro for unattended game playcan be banned RIGHT NOW. We don't need a change of rules or a fix to the game. We just need the CSRs to police the game based on the rules that ALREADY exist. The problem is, they won't do it.
Beery
Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:38 am
#127
But it specifically does NOT mean 3rd party macros because they refer to 3rd party software elsewhere in the same paragraph. Thus it cannot only refer to 3rd party macros.
Doriana
Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:28 am
#128
Regardless of if it was intended to refer to 3rd party macros (I agree with you in that it wasn't originally intended to), it does now because SOE representatives have explicitly stated that it does.
And SOE needs to back up what its employees say, even if there may have been a misunderstanding. That policy I have to agree on.
And SOE needs to back up what its employees say, even if there may have been a misunderstanding. That policy I have to agree on.
ArgentWulf
Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:25 am
#129
It's nice to see the red names here and it is correct inin how you state it. I hope my absence is seen as a "break" and not a "divorce".
PoetDancer
Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:14 am
#130
Its nice to get all this attention from the red names. Thank you SOETyrant. Just a couple things to jot down in a notebook:
1) I guess delayed attention is better than no attention at all, and if our issues are going to be addressed, its better that you do it right, rather than push something out that is not satisfactory. I'm all for waiting if it will solve the great issues we are faced with.
2) Open yourselves to the possibility that perhaps statistic healing and buffing may not be the best role for entertainers to fulfill. Consider other ways we can fit in to the game environment, doing things that nobody really considered could be done by players.
3) Our issues are unique because whileother "broken" professionsstill have things they can do today, we are increasingly finding that our roles are completely being taken away fromactive players. I'm not saying drop everything and fix our problems, but do understand that our issues are much more difficult ones for we as players to overcome in the interim than other professions who also need a revamp.
4) Understand that there is a segment of the playerbase that refuses to accept these professions as legitimate ones for an MMO and would rather not have seen these professions in the game at all. They'll cause you nothing but headache as you all try to revamp these professions in the future. But do notinterpret their comments about our professions as any general sentiment.
5) We are perhaps the only classes in the game where we have no special relationship with the system. Our skills, more than any other set of professions, rely on other players to advance and grow. There is absolutely no solitaire aspect to what we do in the game. The quality of our gameplay sessionrests entirely on being used by other players, which means if other players cannot or will not use what we have to offer, we have no chance to succeed or advance. I would humbly ask for a worthwhile function we can do by ourselves and for ourselves so if we find ourselves in a position where players aren't treating us very well, we can abandon them and still have a game to play.
6) These classes, more than any other, must be approached as more than an excercise in computer programming. It must be approached as an excercise in behavioral science. What conditions naturally are conducive to social interaction, and what conditions inhibit social interaction? The BF healing cycle promotes social interaction, because it is a relatively intuitive and stress free matter to tend to. The mechanics and results genuinely lend themselves to the conditions necessary to promote roleplay and social interaction. Take this and compare it to the conditions thatstatistic enhancementcreates: stress, unclear roles and expectations, and general unease between the patron and performer. It is no wonder why buffing is done by preprogrammed computers, because the currentstatistic enhancementsystem promotes routinized efficiency and mathematical calculation over social interaction and the attempt to amuse. They don't tip a performer for a buff because the performer is amusing. They tip a performer because they "got the procedure right," and getting the procedure right is something buffbots can do better by virtue of their programming.
Again, thank you for posting SOETyrant.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 12:02 PM