Entertainer Archive
Thread: Healing XP slowing to a snail's pace?
My time is limited as is and will be getting real short again real soon. so i do not see why i will "want" to stop in a cantina.
it wasnt a negative aspect it was a nessacary aspect, something i do not mind doing as a requirement. but if the requirement goes. well so do i. which kills players off who will be wholesale bored out of their minds. and away goes two professions.
5% isnt enough to get me into watch. thee only reason ill stop and watch, if this goes thru, is because i am simply waiting on a teammate to show up, no other reason past that.
Im neither a power gamer or RPer im just simply a guy with limited time. I am not the only one.
Kiss those professions goodbye if this goes thru.
It is a bad move for the entertainers of the galaxy, giving them props is NOT gonna get me to go watch, i could careless if they have a sword in hand or fake armor on, that isnt what drew me in, what drew me in was a nessacary evil and if i happen to be entertained at the sametime will they got a big tip. if not i just went in fixed and left.
Now please explain to us why we would want to go in forego our time in getting things for ourselves to watch someone wield a sword/rifle while wearing armor.
hell that dont appeal to me in real life let alone in a game. lol
oh baby thats totally sexy wearing a full suit of jousting armor why, here, have my 50 bucks, why, no darling, dont take it off, skin disgusts me, show me more chrome baby, oh yeah...
ROFL yeah right lol.
Go to a topless or full nudie bar and suggest that, see what kinda response you get other than jokes and getting laughed out of the bar.
what makes you think that people will come in for that? in a game? when they could be instead kicking the snot out of someone to get an uber loot item?
hmm uber loot item.. some chick or guy for you gals... dancing in fake armor.. hmmm 2-10 mill or spend 100 1000 10000...
lots of benefit.... no benefit.. hmm well minimal 5%.... I DUNNOOOOOOOOOOOO its a tough decision, really is.
wow you all spend waaaaaaaaaay to much time in front of a computer if you think that will work without killing them off. Poor entertainers.
I gotta go, wife is cracking jokes about wearing armor to bed now ROFL thanks for that laugh gang. lol
riotcontrol wrote:
It forces (OMG! FORCES! *GASP*) people to interact, that's how. Even if it doesn't directly "force" you to talk to people, especially in a RP manner, or do anything else apart from making you visit the cantina once in a while. It instantly makes you an "extra" in the ANH Eisley cantina scene for a short amount of time. And that's a pretty major thing to accomplish.
The Entertainer professions need an "artificial crutch" because, in general, most of the "random MMORPG powergamer" playerbase will never, ever do anything they don't have to do in order to somehow advance. And since this one is based on the actual Star Wars world, there should be game mechanics that promote "starwarsiness" instead of just plain old grinding - you can do the level-up thing in any other game, but this one wasn't supposed to be about that.
I fail to see how something that will be available from the Entertainer professions in the future will ever be "desirable" but not "needed" - the philosophy/mindset of most players simply doesn't allow for that. As shown in numerous examples in the SWG history, if it's good enough, it won't be just "desirable". It will become needed to compete and everyone will be using it after a short while. If it's not good enough, no one will ever use it. It's totally possible to balance the two in theory, but when you give it to the playerbase, the end result will be... well, not that good.
Anyway, killing stuff and stopping by the cantina every now and then is more "starwarsy" to me than killing stuff and... killing stuff. That's about it.
PoetDancer wrote:
I do not consider Battle Fatigue to be auseless timesink that serves no purpose.
I would argue that it provides a much needed rotational mechanic that assures a player is not "hogging content" that other players are wanting to experience.
It also is a limiting factor that makes realistic strategic decision making possible. When we examine the reality of soldiers in combat, we find that troops cannot maintain full operational efficiency indefinately. Even the best troops will lose effectiveness over time in combat conditions. It is why the first rate armies and navies of the world take combat rotation, recreation, and morale issues very, very seriously.
And that is why if the intent of this simulation is to simulate a war in a persistant world that takes place over an extended period of time, then something like Battle Fatigue would have to be simulated in some way. Because unless there is some sort of measure of how long someone has been in the field, or how intense the experience was, then the concepts of "fresh troops" called up means nothing. The notion that a group of troops is so stalwart holding on far in excess of the norm has no foundation. In short, even if entertainers had nothing to do with removing Battle Fatigue, I would think if this simulation was to make sense, it would have to include something like it, for both the balance aspects, and the realism aspects.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-17-2005 11:56 PM
Very logical. And the same can be said of sleep. Without a few hours shut eye, the average grunt becomes fairly useless. ThoughI knowyou are not advocating a mandatory sleep period because it would be silly.
Message Edited by SmedleyLlama on 06-18-2005 01:25 AM
Wolveryne40 wrote:
Can tell you this much, you pull that BF healing aspect from entertainers. I know for a fact i wont be going in If i dont have to waste my time stopping and i can continue on grabbing loot, xp, finish quests just that little bit faster, i will be doing that.
Wolveryne,
If you had your effective combat range increased by going to see a show, would you do it? Or had your accuracy increased, or your odds of finding better loot, or anything else your mind can imagine. Would you stop by the cantina now and then?
Sure you would. Because you would be rewarded for doing so. This is positive reinforcement vs negative punishment.
Then again.. I'm not sure why you would argue against BF being removed if your time is limited already.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
Wolveryne,
If you had your effective combat range increased by going to see a show, would you do it? Or had your accuracy increased, or your odds of finding better loot, or anything else your mind can imagine. Would you stop by the cantina now and then?
Sure you would. Because you would be rewarded for doing so. This is positive reinforcement vs negative punishment.
Then again.. I'm not sure why you would argue against BF being removed if your time is limited already.
Perhaps he would. In fact, it is proven that these "positive reinforcements," as has been put get people to the cantinas. Mind buffing was all the rage before the CU.
However, did mind buffs get players to play this profession? Or did they get guilds to buy 24/7 buffbot accounts?
Did mind buffs get more patrons to appreciate the show and the effort displayed there by live players? Or did mind buffs create a niche market for buffbots to sell a buffing cycle, spam its value, time it with precision down to a second, and send them on their way?
The problem I see with these "positive reinforcements" is that they do not encourage patrons to sit back and enjoy the show. They only encourage patrons to visit the most convenient, cheap, and available "goodie giver." And I can promise this. An automated, 24/7, dedicated buffingmule will always be more convenient, cheap, and available than any live player.
SmedleyLlama wrote:Then again.. I'm not sure why you would argue against BF being removed if your time is limited already.
If I may take a guess... it's because he recognizes that needs and forced interaction create community.
Communities don't form because people want them to, they form because people need them to.
This is a video game... if you want there to be a mechanic for entertainers to function, there should be a need for them, not a slight motivation.
And if you think making buffs that increase people's skills so much so that it is largely desirable is a good thing, then I really disagree with you, because the last thing I want to see is a return of buff demands and the perceived necessity of buffs by the playerbase.
There's a fundamental difference between a profession supplying a bonus and supplying a necessity.
Either the bonus will be over-powered or the bonus will be ignored.
So, yes, if you think cutting the amounts of players that go to entertainers will be good for the profession (And/Or the game), or if you think introducing largely beneficial bonuses to all professions will be good for the balance of the game... then congratulations... it sounds like you'll get one of those two.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
May the force be with you.
Message Edited by omadnay on 06-18-2005 01:50 AM
Message Edited by omadnay on 06-18-2005 01:51 AM
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad")."
I am sorry, but I am thinking that you are not thinking here.
Doing battle is a harsh reality of the Star Wars Universe, but that does not mean that battle is a Good thing per say. Hence there is a negative effect to it, Battle Fatigue, and thus, to get rid of this negative "bad" effect as you put it, you have to do a Positive action and Interact with some of your fellow Players, who are there to south the mind and perfom a Positive action in turn to nulify that something bad ...
Not hard to see it that way was it?
Suraknar wrote:
" We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'.
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad")."
I am sorry, but I am thinking that you are not thinking here.
Doing battle is a harsh reality of the Star Wars Universe, but that does not mean that battle is a Good thing per say. Hence there is a negative effect to it, Battle Fatigue, and thus, to get rid of this negative "bad" effect as you put it, you have to do a Positive action and Interact with some of your fellow Players, who are there to south the mind and perfom a Positive action in turn to nulify that something bad ...
Not hard to see it that way was it?
That's a great point that has not really been put so simply until now...
Combat should hold a certain negative result... many of us have agreed on that.
Battle Fatigue shold not be viewed as the negative aspect of Entertainers.
Entertainers should be viewed as the positive ANSWER to the negative result of combat (Battle Fatigue).
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
PoetDancer wrote:
Perhaps he would. In fact, it is proven that these "positive reinforcements," as has been put get people to the cantinas. Mind buffing was all the rage before the CU.
However, did mind buffs get players to play this profession? Or did they get guilds to buy 24/7 buffbot accounts?
Did mind buffs get more patrons to appreciate the show and the effort displayed there by live players? Or did mind buffs create a niche market for buffbots to sell a buffing cycle, spam its value, time it with precision down to a second, and send them on their way?
The problem I see with these "positive reinforcements" is that they do not encourage patrons to sit back and enjoy the show. They only encourage patrons to visit the most convenient, cheap, and available "goodie giver." And I can promise this. An automated, 24/7, dedicated buffingmule will always be more convenient, cheap, and available than any live player.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
I guess that would depend on your definition of "buffs". If you are refering to the old system of increasing the base statistic of everyone's HAM, I agree. But suppose it was as simple as a 10% increase in a Weaponsmith's Experimentation? Or a 15m increase in a Pistoleers range? Or a +10 to a CH's Creature Taming ability? None of which could be considered "overpowering".
omadnay wrote:
This is a video game... if you want there to be a mechanic for entertainers to function, there should be a need for them, not a slight motivation.
And if you think making buffs that increase people's skills so much so that it is largely desirable is a good thing, then I really disagree with you, because the last thing I want to see is a return of buff demands and the perceived necessity of buffs by the playerbase.
The abilities you've mentioned would, of course, become "needed". Don't tell me that a Pistoleer would actually participate in combat from a 35m range if 50m was available? Or that Weaponsmiths wouldn't take advantage of a Weapon Experimentation bonus? For something like that, they would probably keep an alt bot account, actually. (No, I'm not going to comment on the Creature Taming ability as I have no clue about what it does.
) They would become a requirement, just as buffs were before the CURB.
You can't get away with calling BF an artifical crutch, because well, everything in this game is artificial. It's actually a realistic premise. The longer you work, the more tired you get, no? Luke may not have stopped to rest and recuperate onscreen, but it's a movie, and we never saw anyone go to the bathroom either, there were plenty of scenes of people in cantinas and theaters watching entertainment, and the extras we sawfor certain were not negotiating the buying and selling of buffs with the performers.
With the real actual total lack of information we have been given, I cannot foresee any system of buffs and buff application that will run as smoothly and be as simple to understand as Fatigue. Think of the new player. How easy is it to say to them when this bar gets black, find a doctor, and when this number gets too high stop and watch an entertainer. I shudder to think of whatever system they give us to apply these, and what sort of ungodly explanation process it will take, especially if there's a choice of different buffs on the patrons part.
The last thing I want to hear someone tell a rookie is, "that's the cantina, but you don't need to go in there, they just buff skills and you don't have enough to matter yet" *cringe*
It's a smoke and mirrors post. They haven't really told us anything except we're gonna lose even more before we get our cool new stuff.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
I guess that would depend on your definition of "buffs". If you are refering to the old system of increasing the base statistic of everyone's HAM, I agree. But suppose it was as simple as a 10% increase in a Weaponsmith's Experimentation? Or a 15m increase in a Pistoleers range? Or a +10 to a CH's Creature Taming ability? None of which could be considered "overpowering".
omadnay wrote:
This is a video game... if you want there to be a mechanic for entertainers to function, there should be a need for them, not a slight motivation.
And if you think making buffs that increase people's skills so much so that it is largely desirable is a good thing, then I really disagree with you, because the last thing I want to see is a return of buff demands and the perceived necessity of buffs by the playerbase.
For what it's worth, I am not trying to pick any arguments here... just continuiing the discussion.
I know that probably didn't need to be said, but you know how things are... I just wanted to make sure the sincerity and respect is apparent.
Honestly I think +15m pistoleer range is a perfect example of something too powerful.
Simply put... if pistoleers could shoot from 50 meters instead of 35 meters, they would never want to shoot from 35 meters. They would always want the 50 meters.
I am a pistoleer and I can tell you, sure that's incentive... but it's alos one of those... if I don't have it, I'll feel gimped.
That was probably just a bad example on your part, but seriously, once you add any kind of bonuses... it's tough to make them worthwhile, yet not so great that they'd be viewed as necessity.
I'd imagine the +10% experimentation would be worth getting, but I will admit that in the realm of crafters, that shouldn't be too bad of a thing.
And I do love the idea of entertainers benefitting crafters... I've wanted that since day one.
The other thing that I will say is a positive of buffs post-CU (At least inspiration Buffs) is that they stay after logging out and logging back in.
So, ending your session by getting buffed and returning the next session with those buffs in tact is a great thing and would allow players to not have to start their sessions with preperation (Something I really resented... and loved about Space). I think most people want to log in and start doing what they want to do... and not have to spend time preparing.
I'm not going to say that things cannot improve without BF, but I also do not believe for a second that BF has to go away to make things any better.
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri