Droid Engineer Archive

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Virtanis wrote:

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Viranis

if all you want to do is argue ..fine

The biggest failure in any business discussion..brainstorming effort..is when the participants are allowed to get into detail before time. You can pay 1000's of dollars to hear that on a course..or you can take it from me who has the T-Shirt..up to you

Do it with somebody else.

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..........

Um, I'm for this plan.... what's your problem?

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None..I have no problem with it, it's as near to perfection as we as a group have ever got.

My problem is with people who think it will help the plan if they demonstrate that they have minor disageements or comments about every post..The now famous TK breakdown does not have to be emulated in every instance..though I agree it kinda makes one feel cool.

Surely it is enough to broadly agree..the Devs will work out the details, and then we can comment again

Is that ok?

No offence intended...underlined.

One thing to consider about this proposal is that skill mods are static in the profession system. In other words, one does not "unlock" previously dormant skills mods when unrelated skills boxes are attained. Additional skills are attained by box progression and point consumption. Hybrid professions require three components: (1) prerequisite skills boxes attained, (2) a new skill box that is unlocked by the prerequisite boxes, and (3) enough pooled skill points to unlock the new skill box.

This is not to say that this proposal could not be implemented, only that it would require a rewriting of the profession system's infrastructure rules. In this regard, I see little chance of such a rewrite happening. A proposal in-line with current game mechanics would seem to have a better shot and passing muster with SOE.

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

My problem is with people who think it will help the plan if they demonstrate that they have minor disageements or comments about every post..The now famous TK breakdown does not have to be emulated in every instance..though I agree it kinda makes one feel cool.

Gribnitz made "holes" in the plan with his post. Even TK suggested that Sodan needed to come here to defend the plan.I did my best toaddress them and defend the plan, but you're getting on my case because of the style in which I'm doing it? (and no, I like TK but I'm not emulating him, and anyone who's read my 1100+ post history knows I try to address all points made by a person).

Grib,

Thanks for your comments. I look forward to what you have to offer in reply to this reply.

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Gribnitz wrote:

The only way to make this work since Artisan is so easy to grind is to have to sink more skill points into it. Like Master Brawler, or Master Marksman in order to use the big droids. That would make it daunting enough to make only the people wanting the super droidsto try it out and keep out of the crafting business.

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Ok, this is productive. You think the skillpoint cost should be higher. That is a very good argument. I would like to see you do the math on this one, however. Craft me a proposal, based on skillpoints as I have done, where the pet lvls are equivalent for a DE or a CH dabbler.

On the other hand, the only combat types that need to master marksman are commando and BH. Not much of a dabbler market there and most template crafters will see the excess DE skill points as wasted. They'll just go CH, if they get more pets for the points. The plan I have proposed tries to make the skill points ahve the same bang for the buck in CH and DE.

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Gribnitz wrote:

I just don't see this happening. You could master DE for the super droid, MA to make all your basic supplies, and still have enough room left over to master Pistoleer, TKA or any other elite combat class. The best of both the combat world and the pet controlling world. Why wouldn't everyone want to bea DE?

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Do you have an alternat character man? "Uber" combat templates are focused around maximum combat benefit. If you had ever crafted one you would see. People take BH Carbines 4 and Master Carbanineer, etc. There is NO room in an uber combat template for the remainder of the skill trees.

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Gribnitz wrote:

I don't like the idea of the DC profession, but at least there is a market buried in there. Every DE making thier own combat droids doesn't leave much room for a market. I seriously doubt you will see very many people ONLY going up the droid controlling branch, why would theyif they can make all of their own on demand and it only takes a few more hours to grind ??? Grind up and make your droids, then drop it all again.

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If you drop Ch do you get to keep the pets? This is rampant speculation that is not even analogous in its comparison to different game systems.

As for people grinding thier way to MDE I say so what? Just cause DE is borked now and it might be fixed to be attractive with the addition of optional pre-requisites for combat droid use, does not make future MDEs illegit. More MDEsare not bad in my book.

You forget, I think, that most pre-nerf CH dabblers only twook the minumum trees they needed for the pet lvls. They let the MCHs train and tame the pets.

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Gribnitz wrote:

My only problem with this is that everyone is going to want to own a super droid. Everyone that currently has a massive bank account (which is about everyone BUT DE), is going to grind straight up to Master and over night we have the CH disease again, but this time with MDE over thier heads. Three or four months down the road and it will all get nerfed to get rid of some of the new super class and we will be a second class profession again.

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Unde this plan, you have to spend as much points in DE as you would in CH to get the same -- nay, less -- pet levels. This argument has been addressed repeatedly thoughout this thread. I started with the balanced approach that the devs crafted after the CH nerf. I did the numbers. So far no one has refuted me on those grounds: that you have to spend as many points to get as many pet lvls. Indeed, if you account for the hidden skill point cost of master artisan, my proposal is decidely underpowered.

I'm not sure what "super" droid you're talking about man. I started this thread by saying 78 points for 35 pet lvls whichs is the same as 0044 CH. Since then I've adjusted the plan downward. I respect your opinion, but I don't see it grounded in these points. Additionally, 25-35 is the max lvl proposed for droids.

Edited for typos...

Message Edited by Sodan-droiddreamer on 03-05-2004 10:26 PM

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Eutock wrote:

One thing to consider about this proposal is that skill mods are static in the profession system. In other words, one does not "unlock" previously dormant skills mods when unrelated skills boxes are attained. Additional skills are attained by box progression and point consumption. Hybrid professions require three components: (1) prerequisite skills boxes attained, (2) a new skill box that is unlocked by the prerequisite boxes, and (3) enough pooled skill points to unlock the new skill box.

This is not to say that this proposal could not be implemented, only that it would require a rewriting of the profession system's infrastructure rules. In this regard, I see little chance of such a rewrite happening. A proposal in-line with current game mechanics would seem to have a better shot and passing muster with SOE.

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They might be able to tie it in with the system they use for weapons currently. (For example: you could try to equip a light lightning cannon, but unless you have unlocked the certification for that weapon, your damage is nil; in this case, you could still technically own the droid beyond your ability to "control" it, but maybe when you attempt to issue commands, all you get is the "?" above the droid's head (unless you have the proper level to control that droid)). Just a thought.

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SinjenRandall wrote:
Okay, just to be clear up front, I like this proposal. So in case with my ramblings and rants I make it sound like I am against it, just refer to the first sentence.

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:

That would be fine with me. Ranged Support requires combatr exp which is harder to get, but that's ok. There is no similar skill tree for brawler however. I purposefully left the proposal open regarding which trere shoudl be required -- the devs can decide that or make it any of the trees. The point is the expenditure of points.

Exactly. The premise for your original proposal was to balance the pet levels with CH's equivalent expenditure of skillpoints. I like it that way. I also am biased a bit, because I prefer brawler.

But I like the ranged support idea since it reeks of balance -- combat exp is a b*tch to get; much harder than say pistol exp.

This, then, would no longer be balanced. Keep in mind that the CH has to get scouting experience. I know it is easy to browbeat yourself and do it in the name of "balance", but just keep in mind what it is you are balancing.

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It almost goes without saying, but the CH is not in and of itself a combat profession. You can master CH without having any combat skills of your own, but it would be like mastering DE withouthaving Master Artisan, or worse. It is much faster and easier to gather the implicated requirements of some combat profession when persuing the CH. My point, however, is that you can master CH without picking up a gun or a melee weapon. When talking about what is balanced, a lot of people aren't keeping this very important point in mind. The primary function of CH is combat. However, they don't have any more combat requirements than we do.

If I were being my ordinary onery self, I would say that Survey IVshould bethe additional prerequisite. But for the sake of buying into this proposal, I will stand behind your original idea andsupport either a brawler or a marksman prerequisite.

As far as them being illegal, I like that idea too. However, lets forget about scanning and just make it so that the droid, when out, is overt to imperials and all police forces. You can either buy a license with faction points or have a smuggler create you a fake license (or slice the droid for a temporary license). The whole "scan" thing isn't really working anyway.

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Virtanis wrote:

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

My problem is with people who think it will help the plan if they demonstrate that they have minor disageements or comments about every post..The now famous TK breakdown does not have to be emulated in every instance..though I agree it kinda makes one feel cool.

Gribnitz made "holes" in the plan with his post. Even TK suggested that Sodan needed to come here to defend the plan.I did my best toaddress them and defend the plan, but you're getting on my case because of the style in which I'm doing it? (and no, I like TK but I'm not emulating him, and anyone who's read my 1100+ post history knows I try to address all points made by a person).

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Well then I apologise

I still believe it would be better to discuss the principle rather than the actual gritty detail of the CL level involved..in truth none of us care what they set it at. It must be fair to us, and fair to others.

if I offended you, then I apologise. Iagree Grib found holes in the plan too. I still believe its our best bet, and it will take a little time to amend. Those holes have to be filled..no doubt about it.

Lets not forget though, that the clock is running

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Drashk, Kollos, Audio, EricTheGreat: Can I have your feedback, pls?

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Lol Sodan, what does a girl have to do to get on the Executive DE list ?

J/K ignore this post *chuckle*

No, on a more serious note...we DO need to have those pillars of the establishment onboard with this, or stating amendments they would like. Please guys, speak up. In this I an definitely not kidding.

Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-05-2004 07:25 PM

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Shian, I am in favor of inclusiveness. I was just rattling off some names of folks I've debated with before. I dunno that Kollos will support this plan -- I doubt he will -- but I still want his feed back.

Also, quit making this DE nerd /blush

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Well then I apologise

I still believe it would be better to discuss the principle rather than the actual gritty detail of the CL level involved..in truth none of us care what they set it at. It must be fair to us, and fair to others.

if I offended you, then I apologise. Iagree Grib found holes in the plan too. I still believe its our best bet, and it will take a little time to amend. Those holes have to be filled..no doubt about it.

Lets not forget though, that the clock is running

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Ohhh, that clock is ticking, we know it all too well...

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Virtanis wrote:

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Virtanis

You really must not get hung up on exactly what the CL level is..The Devs can set that like Sodan has already said.

Erm... how exactly does one refute the claim that DE dabblers will own and control *quote* super droids *unquote* without mentioning CL level? Please don't hamstring me into not discussing an aspect of this plan that is vital to it's core.

Please, stay focussed on the plan, never mind the CL class, it is just devisive.

I am focused on the plan... defending it, in fact.

If you sign up to the idea..then the detail can be worked out afterwards..but this is the very first plan I have seen that has gathered together so many from the different camps.

Perhaps I'm an old cynic, but if we don't actively take "the details" into consideration andreally try to discuss thembefore the plan is presented to the not-so-eager-to-compromise developers, I'm almost 100% positive they'll just reject it flat out and say "too overpowered." Yes, I understand that they alone can only figure out all the numbers and details, but we have to show them the range, scope, and breadth of what we're proposing including all thediscussion some of us are putting into trying to make this a fair and balanced proposal.

Please give it a chance..the CL detail will be balanced by the Devs in the end anyway.

Yes, but this is like a movie pitch... ask anyone in "the biz" if you don't have all your ducks in a row and all your stuff together before your pitch your plan, 9 times out of 10 it will be shot down without even the bat of an eye. You have to try to punch holes in the plan to make sure it's rock solid, consider every aspect, view it from every angle,then pitch it.

OOps missed yor comments on utility...as things stand there will be no useful utility, but PLEASE separate this issue from that..they are two completely different arguments (see my thread as I know you have on TH and Utility..inc Runesabre input)

Geez! Gribnitz made a statement inferring that this plan will not bring sales to the DE profession. I pointed out to him that our sales right now arealmost exclusivelybased on the sale of utility type droids, so how could this plan not improve the situation as it stands now?

Shian, let me speak, for crying out loud!!~!

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I want you to speak man. The details are left pruposefully vague because of the absense of information, but implicit in the is plan is that dabblers will get no more pet levels from DE than they might from CH for the same amount of points. If these droids are more powerful than the Ch pets, then we drop the levels. If they are equal, we keep them. 25 to 35 is a good estimate.

Is that fair to you?

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Gribnitz wrote:
I say it's to easy to grind up to Master DE once your established in game and there just isn't a whole lot of new bloods coming into the game anymore. Mastering Brawler or Marksman my be a bit much, but onlygetting to unarmed IV or Rnaged support IV is just too easy. Perhaps both linking tothe DE profession would work. I mean, I already have70,174 combat expwhich is enoughto getto Ranged Support IV a couple of times over and I am not even very combat oriented.

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Since this is your baby...you need to address these points. I think Gribnitz has put some decent sized holes in your plan, on the surface, at least.

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I regret naming it "my" plan because I don't want to to be about me.


I understand what you mean. It's still your plan (even if we can all get behind it and hold it up as 'ours').


I am responding substantively to most posts because I want to kep the ball rolling.


That's excellent...and no one here will fault you for it (on the contrary, you're to be commended for it).

However, this is NOT my plan. It is a proposal for the DE community to save us from the insepid "droid invasion" and supplant it with something that will 1) give us bug fixes, 2) give us utility modules and 3) make DE a hybrid profession to the benefit of crafters, combat DEs and dabblers who want a roger roger droid rather than some sludge panther. (Do panthers hang out in sludge? Lol!)

Seriously, TK, I know you imagine yourself as a provocatuer, but how 'bout you advocate for this plan rather than sit back and ask questions?


Because...asking questions is a GREAT way for me to guage how this can all play out. The Devs themselveshave statedthat when any "good" idea comes along, the best way to work with it is to try to shoot the holesin it (as Gribnitz has).

Asking questions has value. Asking questions leads to better information flow (on a brainstormed proposal suchas this).

Don't think that just because I'm semi-lurking on this doesn't mean anything in particular.I DO want to help.

Part of me is, to be honest and fair, a bit concerned that we're spinning our wheels in the face of what I believe may happen to us (despite the best proposal we might put on the table). So, I hope you'llforgive my touch of reservation in jumping in with both feet yet.

Honestly...this a REALLY new thing. I need time to weigh and digest it a bit, Sodan. I think it bears serious thought, though. I don't make comment on items without serious thought first. I think that's always a mistake (especially for changes so big as how to "do" a DE hybrid class).


Play the devil's advocate for the proposal. I know you can lob questions. But can you supply ANSWERS to the troubling issues I have tried to address here?


I'll see what I can do. One quick question, though...

Can you sum up the 'holes' that might still be open on this? If so, I might be able to best apply myself to that side of things. I want to help where I can have the biggest impact.

I'll read (and re-read) the whole thing again, as well as the other replies, and try to weigh this more to get a feel for how this might all play out.


I encourage others to do so as well. This is for the community, not for me. Where's the doughbacca style breakdown in favor of the plan?


** Low Power **


I'm not a dev if you recall. Just a DE that wants to make AND use droids -- one who will spend the points to do so, if they're not in a universally-rejected DH profession.

(Remember, the skill trees spamming "a" "a" "a", TK?)


/emote installs a new battery...

What? "...the skill trees spamming 'a' 'a' 'a'...."? Seriously. You totally confused me there.

It is my hope that we can gather consensus around this plan so that we can have cool combat droids to sell and use, rather than just to shoot as mob. If you have this wish too and you think this plan or a variant of it will work then I encourage you to speak up. In the alternate, ask yourself what the cost of your objections might be. Combat R2 anyone?


Actually...I'm kind of getting curious to see what it's gonna look like for a BLL to blow sky high from a hi-level Exploding module installed in it.

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Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Sodan

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.....thats all I'm gonna say.

Tk is onboard..that should be enough for

you.

Worry about Kollos if I was you.

You have a good thing going here..do not provoke the fight..please

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I don't want a fight. I want a compromise. And I'm asking TK and others to help me achieve it, rather than relying on me alone to answer everything. I've put forth some ideas, and honestly, as a person, I could use some help here.

if we don't find common ground, its Droid Invasion the whole way. if we find common ground, perhaps -- gasp -- its CL 25-35 Roger Rogers, Super Battle Droids and Droidekas whe whole way!