Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
I think Sodan, Shain, and Virt are all one the same page -- as are a LOT of people. lets all cool off pls as a favor to me; I include myself therein.
Virtanis wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Viranis
if all you want to do is argue ..fine
The biggest failure in any business discussion..brainstorming effort..is when the participants are allowed to get into detail before time. You can pay 1000's of dollars to hear that on a course..or you can take it from me who has the T-Shirt..up to you
Do it with somebody else.
..........
Um, I'm for this plan.... what's your problem?
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
If you drop Ch do you get to keep the pets? This is rampant speculation that is not even analogous in its comparison to different game systems.
Eutock wrote:
One thing to consider about this proposal is that skill mods are static in the profession system. In other words, one does not "unlock" previously dormant skills mods when unrelated skills boxes are attained. Additional skills are attained by box progression and point consumption. Hybrid professions require three components: (1) prerequisite skills boxes attained, (2) a new skill box that is unlocked by the prerequisite boxes, and (3) enough pooled skill points to unlock the new skill box.
In this instance Novice DE is #2. The prereq for Novice DE is 4000 Artisan. To use the droid however, you must have some combat skills as described herein.
Eutock wrote:
This is not to say that this proposal could not be implemented, only that it would require a rewriting of the profession system's infrastructure rules. In this regard, I see little chance of such a rewrite happening. A proposal in-line with current game mechanics would seem to have a better shot and passing muster with SOE.
Thanks for your comments, Eutock. Your point above is a good one. This second point is more "I think the devs will never do this" which does not answer the question, "do you think it should be this way". Do you see that difference? Put another way, do you like or dislike this plan, Eutock, asumming the devs are cool with it?
Lord, I hope this all worth it.
I believe it is
I think it's the last Chance Hotel
If I annoyed anyone I'm sorry, but I have really had it up to the nose now with whats happened to our profession, the neglect, the stupid responses from Red names who should bePink,and have no Heart
For myslf, I dont care if its Cl25 or C35 or any other number..but I do know that DC is a disaster waiting to happen.
I'll shut up now..Sodan can run with this quite fine.
Good analogy. I know you knwo, but I want to stress that under the plan, the combat skill is a pre-req to the droid certs which are in the DE tree. The certs are not in the combat skill. This is a not a certs for all plan.
Virtanis wrote:
Eutock wrote:
One thing to consider about this proposal is that skill mods are static in the profession system. In other words, one does not "unlock" previously dormant skills mods when unrelated skills boxes are attained. Additional skills are attained by box progression and point consumption. Hybrid professions require three components: (1) prerequisite skills boxes attained, (2) a new skill box that is unlocked by the prerequisite boxes, and (3) enough pooled skill points to unlock the new skill box.
This is not to say that this proposal could not be implemented, only that it would require a rewriting of the profession system's infrastructure rules. In this regard, I see little chance of such a rewrite happening. A proposal in-line with current game mechanics would seem to have a better shot and passing muster with SOE.
They might be able to tie it in with the system they use for weapons currently. (For example: you could try to equip a light lightning cannon, but unless you have unlocked the certification for that weapon, your damage is nil; in this case, you could still technically own the droid beyond your ability to "control" it, but maybe when you attempt to issue commands, all you get is the "?" above the droid's head (unless you have the proper level to control that droid)). Just a thought.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Good analogy. I know you knwo, but I want to stress that under the plan, the combat skill is a pre-req to the droid certs which are in the DE tree. The certs are not in the combat skill. This is a not a certs for all plan.
I agree with both. lets work up as much of a detailed plan as possible, but leave in some flexibility. At the same time, if we can get people to agree with the general proposition, then we can argue with the devs about how to implement it when its on TC!!!
Virtanis wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Well then I apologise
I still believe it would be better to discuss the principle rather than the actual gritty detail of the CL level involved..in truth none of us care what they set it at. It must be fair to us, and fair to others.
if I offended you, then I apologise. Iagree Grib found holes in the plan too. I still believe its our best bet, and it will take a little time to amend. Those holes have to be filled..no doubt about it.
Lets not forget though, that the clock is running
No sweat... and yeah, I wanna take this banner up on high and fight for this plan. In fact, I'll fight for almost any plan that averts the DH idea. I'd really rather not get into details myself, but like the saying goes, "the devil is in the details" and this plan will findit's salvation or it's destruction within them.
Ohhh, that clock is ticking, we know it all too well...
Dood, you are going to get tickled if I ever see you in game! First, its overpowered then its underpowered lol! I can't win with you Grib!
Gribnitz wrote:
I guess a lvl 25 droid is not going to be something we could call a 'super droid', but we are going to hit a wall with a lvl 25 droid too. When your using that lvl 25 droid against a 300K HAM npc, it may as well be a lvl 10 droid. You still aren't going to be able to do much.
Gribnitz wrote:
Sure you do in this case since it all depends on 0040 skill. You grind up to Master, make your droids, drop back to 0040 skills and keep the droids. A couple days at most if you have the resources.
Gribnitz wrote:
My only problem with this is that everyone is going to want to own a super droid. Everyone that currently has a massive bank account (which is about everyone BUT DE), is going to grind straight up to Master and over night we have the CH disease again, but this time with MDE over thier heads. Three or four months down the road and it will all get nerfed to get rid of some of the new super class and we will be a second class profession again.
I would venture to say for the same reason that people don't master weaponsmith to go with thier combat professions in order to supply thier own weapons. They could do that easy, too, and a lot of players don't. Skill points and style of play prevent most of that. That's 43 skill points they could use in medic, or scout, or something else useful.
And although I see your point, the other side isthat an influx of population might not be a bad thing. More people as part of the profession, even sanctioned dabblers, have a voice that might get heardand not so thoroughly misunderstood all of the time. Creature Handlers might have gotten some "bad love" at times, but they also have gotten a lot of "good love".
I don't like the idea of the DC profession, but at least there is a market buried in there. Every DE making thier own combat droids doesn't leave much room for a market. I seriously doubt you will see very many people ONLY going up the droid controlling branch, why would theyif they can make all of their own on demand and it only takes a few more hours to grind ??? Grind up and make your droids, then drop it all again.
Good point, but then there is the question of subcomponents, resource quality and spawns, new knowledge and / or techniques, new features, and everything else we deal with as crafters. I know we have cookie-cutter droids right now, but when that changes it won't be the same story. Making a good droid will eventually take skill and time.
I just don't see this happening. You could master DE for the super droid, MA to make all your basic supplies, and still have enough room left over to master Pistoleer, TKA or any other elite combat class. The best of both the combat world and the pet controlling world. Why wouldn't everyone want to bea DE?
Same reason that everyone doesn't take CHwith thiermaster combat elite. Which, by the way, they can also do. They can also get all thier own basic supplies from the wildwith that basic template.
The only way to make this work since Artisan is so easy to grind is to have to sink more skill points into it. Like Master Brawler, or Master Marksman in order to use the big droids. That would make it daunting enough to make only the people wanting the super droidsto try it out and keep out of the crafting business.
Bah. Depending on who you ask and when, anything is easy to grind. The premise of this proposal is to match the skillpoint expenditure to gain droids to the skillpoint expenditure to get creature pets. The benefits that a dabbler gets are not crafting benefits unless they invest further skill points into other trees of crafting.
Essentially, this is a mini-profession in itself, geared with more wieght to those who can make and maintain droids themselves than to combat professions, who don't know much about building, repairing, maintaining, or even programming droids. To require more combat to the requirements doesn't make it more daunting to combat types, it simply makes it more daunting to the crafter types who want a little backup firepower.
I just have never seen it as an issue to try and keep people out of the crafting business. As Virtanis said, we would also have to factor in the utility modules we are going to get. The ones who build droids for themselves (and I think this will be few) won't bother with a consumer base that wants utility droids. Just try to get a min/maxer or a hologrinder to make you a crate of composite armor segments to see what I mean.
Gribnitz wrote:
I say it's to easy to grind up to Master DE once your established in game and there just isn't a whole lot of new bloods coming into the game anymore. Mastering Brawler or Marksman my be a bit much, but onlygetting to unarmed IV or Rnaged support IV is just too easy. Perhaps both linking tothe DE profession would work. I mean, I already have70,174 combat expwhich is enoughto getto Ranged Support IV a couple of times over and I am not even very combat oriented.
Okay,again, point taken. However, it isjust as easy to get up to thedabbling point of CH that this plan refers to.I can *solo* grind up the scouting lines that gets you to CH in a matter of hours. I know this for a fact because I have done it. Kill big creatures, harvest them. Repeat. If this is the same as equivalent creature acquisition, then you have to keep it the same.
Anyway, I see your points here. I just think it is an overly-cataclysmic view of how things will work out. Again, this is all about balancing what you get with the skillpoints you spend. I don't see why you would have to spend more skillpoints to get a droid that does the same thingas a creature of the same level. Now if you are talking about droids being different somehow, then that is something else.
I agree. The REAL calamity would be the Droid Invasion as is, with DEs on the back burner till 2005. That is something to fear.
SinjenRandall wrote:
Anyway, I see your points here. I just think it is an overly-cataclysmic view of how things will work out. Again, this is all about balancing what you get with the skillpoints you spend. I don't see why you would have to spend more skillpoints to get a droid that does the same thingas a creature of the same level. Now if you are talking about droids being different somehow, then that is something else.
Gribnitz wrote:
Sure you do in this case since it all depends on 0040 skill. You grind up to Master, make your droids, drop back to 0040 skills and keep the droids. A couple days at most if you have the resources.
It wouldnt make sense for a dabbler to grind up to MDE just to make his droids, since he would have to lose his other uberskills to do so.
Another factor to bear in mind is that for the most part, combatants think crafting is lame, and dont want to do it. If you have the money to grind, why not just pay for a droid instead of wasting a dozen hours, and a few million in resources. I can not see any scenario where DE's would charge so much as to make it worthwhile to spent millions of credits and dozens of hours grinding 2 professions (MDE & whatever they dropped to return to their former status) Especially when you look at the work required to create droids with all the factory run components.
Especially if being a combat droid, it does take non-repairable damage (vitality of sorts), requiring the occasional replacement.
Also factor in that building your own droid requires the rare resource spawns that will inevitably go along with crafting.
and lastly, what does it matter if a person grinds his way up to MDE and makes his droid. At that pointh they have earned the right to do so.
/bow
Gribnitz wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
If you drop Ch do you get to keep the pets? This is rampant speculation that is not even analogous in its comparison to different game systems.
Gribnitz,
I hope you understand that you a make great point here. Your concern is VERY valid and likely. It needs to be addressed in the design of hybrid plan...and planned around. I hope you'll pardon me for trying to, in turn, pokes a few holes in your comments (for the betterment of the plan) while I agree with others.
Sure you do in this case since it all depends on 0040 skill.
Well, that, and the associated other combat req. (which I'm still not sure we can sell, Sodan. That will be a tough one).
You grind up to Master, make your droids, drop back to 0040 skills and keep the droids. A couple days at most if you have the resources.
Let's take a look at this part:
"if you have the resources" - Let's see. It takes quite a good amount of resources to grind DE to Master. On most any server I know, that's gonna cost a good penny. Some serious ching. On Ahazi, I suspect that someone is looking at something in the neighborhood of 800k-1.2mil for the pleasure grinding to MDE just to get a combat droid or a few? Then they drop it all?
Those are pricey droids, indeed.
I would think one of two things would be likely (and maybe both):
- They will decide to stay there (to make money) since they took the time to do it. Why not try letting it augment your pocketbook if you can still afford to get to TKM? That's a no brainer template to me.
- They will decide that they don't want to fool with all that, spend less money (ultimately) to just buy other droids and focus on different profession choices. If it's all about a powerful pet, the sure won't be focusing on CL25, 30, 35 combat droids.
CH is a different ball of wax. Sure they can tame and use the wild creatures, but the BE is making the good creatures.
That's a good point...and a big difference. CHs can procure their own product by what amounts to picking it off the tree (taming). Or..they get to have them bio-engineered....even better. We don't get such a situation.
A CH has to depend on the BE to get the best pet, unless he dumps a ton of skill points into the BE profession to make his own.
True...but they have the added ability to simply 'pluck' them off the environment. We don't get that. Anyone that wants droids has to come to us. (/emote envisions the "Wild Droid Tamer" profession)
In our case it is going to be all contained in one profession that is Artisan oriented and fairly easy to grind. BE is NOT easy to grind.
For this reason alone, I almost feel like part of the equation needs to be changing the req on DE to MA instead of just Eng 4. This means a longer grind (and more skill points invested) to get there. It's pretty well known that an MDE is among the most heavily dependent upon another profession (in MA) in the game. The additional nice part is that this DOES fulfill part of the Devs' requirement for the 'fix' by making sure that there is more skill point investment required to attain the "checkers".
I guess a lvl 25 droid is not going to be something we could call a 'super droid', but we are going to hit a wall with a lvl 25 droid too. When your using that lvl 25 droid against a 300K HAM npc, it may as well be a lvl 10 droid. You still aren't going to be able to do much.
That's true.However, if you're up on a 300k HAM NPC, are you likely alone?
I think not. I've always had a big beef that anyone using a droid in a combat/hunt group is basically getting coddled by the others (and sometimes pitied, to be honest). We are like little kids on the playground by trying to bring a droid into a lot of fights that can be found out there in this game.
That's just not right. /sigh
We really need Dev input...especially now. If this IS truly our time that gets focus, the one thing we need them NOT to be is silent.
Respectfully,