Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Publish 7 Update
Kollos
Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:02 pm
#105
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I really hope that I don't get beat down big-time next week.
Wait... does this mean you and Woody are cancellingthe... um... party next weekend?
TheRealTK421
Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:03 pm
#106
Party? Errr....you'll need to let me know what you're talking about, Kollos.
Kollos wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I really hope that I don't get beat down big-time next week.
Wait... does this mean you and Woody are cancellingthe... um... party next weekend?
/bow
Respectfully,
Virtanis
Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:12 pm
#107
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Try to keep in mind what led to Probots getting the initial nerf to begin with...so many moons ago. The Devs (best as I can tell) aren't thinking of Probots as being big-time tanks. That's sort of what led us down this bumpy road.
Well folks, since it's the 11th hour and the great armor nerf of 2004 appears to be green lighted, I typed up aPublic Service Announcementto my friends, customers, and fellow Corbanteans.
If you're interested, you can check my message here: Link
If you care about your business' reputation (like I do) and don't wish to face an angry crowd of clients, be proactive and get the word out now.
Kollos
Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:21 pm
#108
Thanks Virtanis.
I added a caveat about the "Droid Invasion" wallpaper when I cross-posted it on the Ahazi forums.
Message Edited by Kollos on 03-13-2004 02:31 PM
Porri_Sharo
Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:17 pm
#109
TheRealTK421 wrote:
However, they did up the damage output, so there's something of a tradeoff in play here.
70 damage to 123, Med armor to none.
I don't know howanyone can call this a tradeoff. It's another case of "pass the Vaseline".
No offence, but there is no way SOE spin this enough to convince me otherwise.
I'm trying to stay positive, but it gets harder each publish.
Mosati
Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:49 pm
#110
Virtanis, Kollos, I posted a copy of the armour nerf warning to the Starsider forum. Since I can never seem to get a link to work on these boards I copied from Kollos' post.
My post is located here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Starsider&message.id=205208
progman63
Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:36 pm
#111
AudioOrgana wrote:
I believe you may be refering to me here.
First, progman's creative facts show he has little to no knowldge of the DE profession or what has actually gone on in the past few months, so take anything he says with a grain of salt.
He clearly misunderstood the very minor point, but allow me to clarify.
There were two markets for Probots : 1) people who wanted what amounted to a very minor tank, and 2) people who liked/needed a tougher chassis for their utility modules. Both of those uses go out the window with this patch. Period.
Progman also completely misrepresented the entire situation, which was more like this :
You go into a diner which has no menus and the waiter tellsyou for an hour he'll be right with you, you're his next priority!
When he finally comes around, he says, "Yo, you want a turkey on rye?"
You say, "No, actually, I'd like..." and then he zones out and misses you telling him what you want.
He returns, another hour later, and puts a plate of liver and onions down in front of you.
"This isn't what I ordered," you say. He says, "Well, you said you didn't want Turkey on Rye!"
This is what happened. The Devs never said, "You have these choices :", it was always cryptic messages and long periods of slience.
And we never ever ever said we wanted a Droid Handling (Liver and onions), we simply said we didn't want to become a hybird (turkey on rye) because we thought we could have certifications (the hamburger, which Raph Koster recomended in the first place, and what we really wanted when we ordered).
Now, that we FINALLY found out about the options, yes, those opinons have shifted only because we didn't have any idea what was really available to fill our plates.
Audio
No, sorry, I wasn't refering to you. Just comments from the community since release.
ButI really like how you take 'facts' and blow them off.
I've been a DE since release.
I've been on these boards since release.
I've 'spent' alot of time sifting through so many threads that just went round and round arguing the same issues over and over with no one even listening to what other people are saying.
It's kind of like a one sided conversation where you state possible solutions or problems in response to someone's post and the response you get back is basically regurgitated rhetoric of that persons very last post with no acknowledgement at all of the points that were brought up.
When "DE only combat modules" were first introduced in the 'official' DE plan back in August or September of last year, there was a CLEAR indication from the community at large that this was not an acceptable implementation because there would be no market for combat droids if only DE could make and use them.
And one of the suggestions that was put forward by the community was a seperate profession which did receive alot of discussion and support.
I don't know. Maybe you were on vacation and missed it all.
So then when the Droid Invasion plan came out and a DH profession was proposed, so many people that we'd never even heard from before started showing up and asking "Where did this come from? We never asked for this?" it was quite confusing to many people.
I don't make stuff like this up in a vacuum. There are plenty of discussions that take place in and out of the DE forum, in and out of game, in and out of the DE community.
There is NO WAY that you or anyone else that has monitored the DE forum since release can say that a seperate profession was NOT suggested and discussed by the community IN the DE forum with a straight face because there was PLENTY of discussion on the topic if one was paying attention.
I personally argued for combat droid skills in the DE skill tree because I wanted to be able to build and use combat droids. But through the course of discussion and debate with other members of the community, in these forums, and further consideration, I understood some of the problems associated with this plan. Most people still do not understand what would happen if combat droid skills were introduced toDE in the same manner as CH - no sales, an influx of undedicated members to the profession, falling prices, no profit, etc.
Another plan that was suggested way before the ID threads was certs in other professions. And we were told by the devs that they could not just drop certs for combat droids into other professions without skill costs for them. And despite this fact, people still argue 6 months later that this is what 'the community as a whole' wants. NOT the community as a whole, and NOT going to happen. So we can continue to waste our breath complaining about a non-issue, or come up with something acceptable to both DE and the devs. I know, there have been a few hybrid plans proposed and some of them sound pretty darn good. But most of them still include certs. I guess we'll just wait and see what the devs come up with on their own then.
Now, you once accused me of being obnoxious for 'encouraging' a few posters to bring their discussions and arguments from the DE forum to the ID threads because that's where the action and the devs were. No amount of discussion in the DE forum at that time would have changed anything because the devs had specifically stated that they were going to be monitoring the ID threads for our responses.
I find YOUR condecending dismissal of the FACTS to be obnoxious. Because it's obvious that YOU do not have as much knowledge of the DE profession or what has actually gone on PREVIOUS to the past few months as you like to lead people to believe.
Your smug assertion that YOU know all 'the facts' and everyone else is obviously wrong if they don't agree with YOUR opinion on any topic is quite onerous and annoying. And the fact that you insist on stating your 'opinions' as 'facts' often and repeatedly is misleading and misrepresentative of 'the community as a whole'.
It's one thing to discuss a topic or state an opinion in an intelligent and informed manner, where we are sometimes forced to make assumptions and suppositions due to lack of information.
It's another thing to degrade or belittle people because they have a differing opinion or have information that youdo not have, or have obviously missed.
So, a few more grains of salt.....
Message Edited by progman63 on 03-13-2004 08:27 PM
AudioOrgana
Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:52 pm
#112
progman63 wrote:
I've 'spent' alot of time sifting through so many threads that just went round and round arguing the same issues over and over with no one even listening to what other people are saying.
It's kind of like a one sided conversation where you state possible solutions or problems in response to someone's post and the response you get back is basically regurgitated rhetoric of that persons very last post with no acknowledgement at all of the points that were brought up.
When "DE only combat modules" were first introduced in the 'official' DE plan back in August or September of last year, there was a CLEAR indication from the community at large that this was not an acceptable implementation because there would be no market for combat droids if only DE could make and use them.
And one of the suggestions that was put forward by the community was a seperate profession which did receive alot of discussion and support.
I don't know. Maybe you were on vacation and missed it all.
So then when the Droid Invasion plan came out and a DH profession was proposed, so many people that we'd never even heard from before started showing up and asking "Where did this come from? We never asked for this?" it was quite confusing to many people.
I don't make stuff like this up in a vacuum. There are plenty of discussions that take place in and out of the DE forum, in and out of game, in and out of the DE community.
There is NO WAY that you or anyone else that has monitored the DE forum since release can say that a seperate profession was NOT suggested and discussed by the community IN the DE forum with a straight face because there was PLENTY of discussion on the topic if one was paying attention.
LOL, progman, you are again totally misrepresenting the situation.
You are confusing two things : the communications of the Devs with the Droid Engineers, and the discussion on the DE boards. Yes, the idea was discussed in different threads - no on ever said that it wasn't!
But when the Devs came to us in threads and said, "What do you want?" they asked us to reiterate our ideas, and it was those threads they took the majority of feedback from. In those threads, people said no droid handler for all the reasons Runesabre wrote in his post regarding why it wasn't being implemented, and many more.
No one ever said the idea was not discussed, we said that the Devs never said, straight up, "Do you want This or Do You Want This?" and they didn't say until not very long ago that "Certifications are not possible".
Without that information we were making blind decisions, but in any case we never said we "overwhelmingly wanted a Droid Handler profession", no matter how much it was discussed.
You came into this thread ranting and complaining about people complaining and insulting the DE community. People are upset in this thread about what's going on right now - and you came in to shake your finger and argue about how it all came to be. It seems the few people who have replied agreed with my assessment of the situation, and you seem to be arguing points people haven't made.
This is all over and done with in any case - we can argue about how it came to be until the Space Expansion comes out, but that doesn't change what's going on now.
Anything to say about the current situation?
Audio
duncje
Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:58 pm
#113
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Well...since I just stepped into this role, let me state:
I really hope that I don't get beat down big-time next week.
I will continue to research, report and bring the DE communities concerns to the PTBs. That's about all that I really can do here, folks. The ultimate decision on any move/change is really up to them.
TK, if something like this does end up happening, know that many (if not all) of your fellow DE's will stand behind you. You're not at fault here, and anybody that tells you otherwise... Well just let us know and we'll "take care" of them. 
fugedaboutit... 
progman63
Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:10 pm
#114
AudioOrgana wrote:
LOL, progman, you are again totally misrepresenting the situation.
You are confusing two things : the communications of the Devs with the Droid Engineers, and the discussion on the DE boards. Yes, the idea was discussed in different threads - no on ever said that it wasn't!
But when the Devs came to us in threads and said, "What do you want?" they asked us to reiterate our ideas, and it was those threads they took the majority of feedback from. In those threads, people said no droid handler for all the reasons Runesabre wrote in his post regarding why it wasn't being implemented, and many more.
No one ever said the idea was not discussed, we said that the Devs never said, straight up, "Do you want This or Do You Want This?" and they didn't say until not very long ago that "Certifications are not possible".
Without that information we were making blind decisions, but in any case we never said we "overwhelmingly wanted a Droid Handler profession", no matter how much it was discussed.
You came into this thread ranting and complaining about people complaining and insulting the DE community. People are upset in this thread about what's going on right now - and you came in to shake your finger and argue about how it all came to be. It seems the few people who have replied agreed with my assessment of the situation, and you seem to be arguing points people haven't made.
This is all over and done with in any case - we can argue about how it came to be until the Space Expansion comes out, but that doesn't change what's going on now.
Anything to say about the current situation?
Audio
I am misrepresenting the situation in now way at all.
The DE forumis our means of communication to the devs, and their means of communication to us are their development plansandID threads.
What I'm saying is that almost everything the devs have brought out in most any DE plan came from the DE forum at one time or another.
The three choices they considered for introducing combat droids came from the DE community. Then they looked at what could and could not be done, what fit and what did not fit into the game and made the decision on how to procede.
It's funny to hear people scream in the ID thread to scrap combat droids because they didn't like the way they were going to be implemented. And then come over here to the DE forum and hear people asking why can't we have combat droids.
That led me to look at a number of other proposals brought up from the community and consequently from the devs and realize that in many instances the devs did bring out things in their plans that the community had proposed, but those most vocal in the community decided they did not like some aspectand shot them down.
A statement was made by the devs long ago that skill points would have to be spent for higher level combat abilities in droids. That only makes sense for balancing combat in the game no matter how anyone would like to rationalize otherwise.
My point is, which many other people have pointed out numerous times, we're getting buttkiss as far as most people can see in these wonderful Droid Invasion publishes.
Longer battery life, R2 with a crappy CDEF duct taped to his dome, repair kits that might work (they didn't last time...), Probot armor brought inline with the rest of the combat system,exploding mice, TEN entertainer modules, and NO combat droids - just underpowered modules.
And why? Because we trashed every plan and made a big enough stink that the devs dropped whatever grandscheme they had.
The devs are listening.
We got what we asked for - nothing, or next to it.
Maybe next time we ever get some attention we can work within the system to try to get some real content for DE.
But as you say, there's no use arguing.
I was just making a poignant observation ofhistory.
Message Edited by progman63 on 03-13-2004 09:12 PM
duncje
Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:26 pm
#115
Virtanis, thanks for the well written PSA. I couldn't have worded it any better, so I've cross-posted it to Radiant.
Virtanis wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:Try to keep in mind what led to Probots getting the initial nerf to begin with...so many moons ago. The Devs (best as I can tell) aren't thinking of Probots as being big-time tanks. That's sort of what led us down this bumpy road.
Well folks, since it's the 11th hour and the great armor nerf of 2004 appears to be green lighted, I typed up aPublic Service Announcementto my friends, customers, and fellow Corbanteans.
If you're interested, you can check my message here: Link
If you care about your business' reputation (like I do) and don't wish to face an angry crowd of clients, be proactive and get the word out now.
Shian_Tavkin
Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:35 pm
#116
In the interests of fairness I also cross posted this to the weekly round table discussion
Just so the decision makers know
TheRealTK421
Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:46 pm
#117
Yea...I know. Too bad ETG's droid mafia took a break. I know that the DE community will stand up...it's those that don't know any better that I'm worried about...
duncje wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Well...since I just stepped into this role, let me state:
I really hope that I don't get beat down big-time next week.
I will continue to research, report and bring the DE communities concerns to the PTBs. That's about all that I really can do here, folks. The ultimate decision on any move/change is really up to them.
TK, if something like this does end up happening, know that many (if not all) of your fellow DE's will stand behind you. You're not at fault here, and anybody that tells you otherwise... Well just let us know and we'll "take care" of them.
fugedaboutit...
/bow
Respectfully,