Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:52 am
#105
LonelyGhost wrote:
What will happen when the market dries up? Do you think new crafters will step in and start to make stuff? People are opportunists. If they see there is money to be made making guns, they will do it. Supply and demand if a heavy thing. That, to me, has been one of the good things about this proposal. It brings MORE crafters into the market. Instead of a five or ten AS providing 5 or so thousand players will all the armor they need, there could be *dozens* of AS providing those same 5 or so thousand players.
Some will step in. The market will stay dried up though because quite frankly, there will always be many many more players using weapons and armor then there are people making them. Supply and demand economics only apply to this game so far. In SWG here isn't a nearly infinite supply of potential entrepeneurs ready to jump in and fill a demand heavy market like there is in real life. When I say that markets are going to dry up what I am saying is that the net sum of all players who are willing to play the crafting game won't be enough to meet demand. Everyone who is willing to do so will step in, but for weapon and armor markets, it won't be enough, and the market will stay dried up. In my opinion.
The droid market might survive because demand is lower. But to be honest, if you are having trouble cutting into the droid marketthen low demand is a far more likely reason, and the better solution is to address demand rather then demand that factories be nerfed.
Daker-Naritus
Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:55 am
#106
TheRealTK421 wrote:
....such as?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
There are better ways to promote hand-crafting than to give a (market-killing) simple bonus to hand crafted items.
Well, as I said earlier one way would be to increase the number and variety of loot drop components (thereby expanding on the current system)wherebyplayers will have an increased incentive toask crafters to hand craft items, but that have to be located/looted to keep these items rare enough to prevent them from flooding the market. They are already implementing this sort of system in JTL, where you better your ship with specialized parts you find.
Another thought that occurred to me is this: I was watching SWAT this weekend (damn good movie), and there is a scene where Samuel L. Jackson drops his rifle off to Colin Farrel, and Colin makes a bunch of modifications to the gun before giving it back to Sammy J.
What if there was an extra step added to the crafting process as part of making a "prototype" (wouldn't be able to do it for experimented weapons) where a window pops up with sliders for each of the attributes(similar to the stat migration window). The sliders' maximums and minimums would be the theoretical maximums and minimum of the item for each of the stats (i.e. for weapons: speed, min damage, max damage, health cost, action cost, mind cost, accuracy, etc.), and the crafter could increase or reduce any of the attributes of the item (up to the theoretical maximums) at the expense of the other attributes (i.e. if you decrease speed, you have to increase other attbibutes). Basically, the crafter gets the benefit of making an item by hand with TLC, and gets to mold it into exactly theitem he/she desires.
The net effect of this is that customers could choose the standard model of a weapon/armor/etc., OR they could choose a hand-crafted specialized model that is tailored specifically for them. BOTH the factory and hand-crafted models would have a market, without either killing the market for the other.
Now I admit that this idea does not work for DE as well as other classes (DE is a very special case). However, I already think there is a bunch of hand-crafting going on in the DE arena, and his sort of rationale could also apply to the final build of droids (for better or for worse) by allowing DEs to mofify the HAM, combat rating, harvesting effectiveness, etc. just to give a little additional customization.
Let me think a while and I might come up with more ideas....
Snikrop
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:51 am
#107
LonelyGhost wrote:This isnt about putting Industrialists out of business or devaluing the time spent by powergamers. Its about making this GAME fun for *everyone* who plays.
Completely agree that the focus of any changes should be about making CRAFTING fun for all who play. I hesitate to call the current crafting system a game, it's like saying the guy who assembles burgers at mcdonalds plays a crafting game.
LonelyGhost wrote:At least give these non-powergamers a chance. Remember, I can be considered a powergamer myself considering I have 2 accounts and play every day.
Can be? Be honest.
The proposal for revamping crafting to grant hand-crafting a small bonus is a valid one. It would reward those who take the time needed to craft stuff. I'm sorry, but having donr the factory thing, its just math. With a very basic spreadsheet and either buying from Miners or using your own lot-swap farms, its not hard. Tedious, yes! Hard, no!
That's a value judgement, but it's certainly not as difficult as walking a tight rope brushing your teeth...
Seriously, I challenge anyone of you large producers to take a month off. Stop any and all crafting for at least 1 month. I guarantee the void left will be filled.
There's a new Jedi grind and without the big dogs, this starts to suffer, and quickly after that Architects start looking for one of two things in quantity, ore and power. Without these in large quantites no heavy harvesters are in the works and the resource collection system really starts to break down. It's not the hologrind, it's the Hollow-Grind. I am not saying that there aren't going to be folk moving in but you're talking about something that can't be calculated easily, or recovered from quickly.
I I would bet that some of that void woudl be filled by new crafters who see that the demand for their goods has surged back to life. I bet these crafters will be able to have success that had been missing from them before.
Supply and demand would indicate the above, but I meet very few new crafters, and even fewer with the vision of an operation of the scale of producers leaving the market.
snip of stuff about how it's really important that the game is fun for noob crafters and masters...
/agree there are core issues about the crafting process that are not fun in any way, so people are encouraged to dump it in a factory as soon as they can. There's a lot of novelty in each new crafting profession for about a week at which point they all seem almost exactly the same. The armorsmith builds things nearly the same way a chef does, and a bio engineer isn't that far in terms of actual crafting process, in this game...
Just because you or I pay more per month for multiple accounts does not mean we get to have more fun than others...and especially not at the other players expense.
Ahh, but it's happening, and if the above were true in game it wouldn't cost you anything to get a second character on the server.
Maybe seeing 3 new players who joined our Guild quit becuase the *work* required to try and establish a business under the shadow of WalMart just kinda soured me on the issue. Playing 10 hours a day with 2 or more accounts wasnt fun for them, neither was fighting, so they moved on. If they had the opportunity to set up a shop and fill a niche in a small region on some planet, they woudl still be playing, and having fun today.
I hate WalMart as much as the next red blooded citizen, but playing 10 hours a day with 2 or more accounts may not be required to get the kinds of businesses running you are talking about. Sure, in the initial setup, but inside of week or two it's down to a quick harvester/factory runs every couple days and stocking the vendor. If you play in the 10 hours a day range, it's up to you to give these 3 guildies the shot they deserve. You know the benefits would come back, heck maybe you did and they still quit. If you're not used to putting lots of time and energy only to have them quit because poor game design you're not going to last long in SWG. It's a very Sisyphusian endeavour and pretty regularly the rock rolls right over the top of the players with SOE dancing on the top of the boulder.
Daker-Naritus
Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:28 am
#108
LonelyGhost wrote:
I guess what it all comes down to for me is finding a way to make the gameplay of new and casual gamers as rewarding as the gameplay of the powergamers. Offering a small bonus to hand crafting will most certainly help new players, since those new to the game or new to crafting will not likely be able to get into factory work for quite some time.
I totally disagree with this whole premise...
Factories have NOTHING to do with casual gamers or new players. The problem with new players and casual gamers is nothing other than resources. It takes time tofind good quality and rare resources to compete in a market that already has experienced crafters in it.
The ONLY way a hand crafting bonus would help new/casual players would be to give them a bonus for hand crafting that puts them on par with experienced crafters using factories. If that is what you are saying I think that is silly, and I guarantee that is contrary to what 99.9% of players want.
Experienced crafters, for example like TK and Audio, deserve to be rewarded for the long hours they have put into gathering resources, skill tapes, and streamlineing their crafting process so that they can provide a great product to their customers. If you are saying someone who puts in no time building their business should be able to make EXACTLY the same product through hand crafting, and that experienced players need to be "equalized" with new and less experienced players, I beg to differ.
The fact is, there is currently ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that an industrialist can do that a hand-crafter cannot. If you are saying you need a bonus to survive you are wrong. I have always hand crafted everything except for subcomponents, and I can tell you that I have never had any problems selling my goods because of customer service. Whereas an industrialist might make a truckload of varied goods and place them on a vendor, the hand-crafters tend to communicate and "sell" their customers on goods a little more. Practically, there is NO difference between the goods of the good industrialists and hand-crafters. The difference is the amount of customer interaction the crafter wishes to have.
Both Industrialists and hand-crafters can charge the EXACT same price for similar quality goods. The only difference is thatIF an industrialist spends a bunch more money and resources to make more goods, AND IF the industrialist can actually attract enough customer to buy those goods, they can make more money in the same amount of time. You will note that those are two REALLY big ifs. They have to both spend a truckload more money AND find customers to buy their mass produced goods. That is no simple task, and is not any easier than hand-crafting to be sure.
Let me give you an example from my experience. For a long time, I bought all my weapons and armor from hand crafters. I had 2 guys that I went back to time after time, because anytime I wanted something they met me at their house and made it for me. I referred these crafters to everyone I knew, and refused to go to anyone different. The took time to give me good service, they hand crafted all of my equipment (personalized with my name on it), and I was loyal to them. Eventually both of them left the game, and I was without a "favorite" crafter for these items.
Since that time, VERY few players have ever tried to build a similar relationship with me. I have looked for it, but have not found it. Tonight, I was on Dantoonine, and my ubese chest piece broke. I didn't want to fly off the planet, so I pulled up the planetary map, found an armorsmith vendor, and went to it. When I got to the shop there was no one in it...I looked around for the vendor, searched it, bought my item, and left.
Now what would have happened if when I had got there, there was a crafter standing in the shop that said "Hi, what can I make for you?" Not only would I have appreciated it, but I probably would have used that crafter from now on.
As another example....for 6 months now I have been looking for a set of 50% composite. I don't want the 85% composite that is on every vendor in the galaxy. What I want is a encumberance experimented suit of armor with lesser resists that I can wear WITHOUT being buffed. I can't find a single hand-crafter that is willing to make it for me.
Customers, just like in real life, value two things: Convenience and service.Which is of more value to them is up to the customer. You mentioned Wal-Mart...I think that is a great example. There are lots of people who WILL NOT shop at walmart. To quote Paris Hilton: "Wal-Mart...what is that? Do they, like, sell stuff for walls there?" People who value convenience and one-stop-shopping got to Wal-Mart. People who value service do not. There are BOTH types of customers in the market, and consequently a market for BOTH types of crafters.
The fundamentalflaw with thisproposal is that it asks the developers toreward a certain playstyle. It states: "I like to hand craft...I want to be rewarded for that and have everything I craft be better." The only real rationale is that "I want my playstyle to be superior." Although you SAY you want to hand craft items for the "prestige" and "reward" of hand crafting, what I am really hearing from you is that you want to make items without a factory and then dump them on a vendor for people to buy later when you aren't there.
Why does that deserve a reward? You would be making the EXACT same goods and selling them in the EXACT same way. How will the customer even know they are hand crafted? More importantly, does the customer even care enought to pay a premium for that? (off a vendor, usually not)
Hand-crafters can do everything industrialists can do, do do everything industrialists do, and there is no justification for them to recieve any "premium" or bonus just because they craft things the way they want to. If they are providing excellent service to customers, the customers will appreciate and pay for that service. If they are running throught he crafting process in a little different way, pushing tool buttons instead of factory buttons, I just don't see the need to reward that.
This is exactly the reason I have proposed, and agree with the proposals, that advocate loot drops to promotehand crafted items instead of a straight bonus. At least with loot drops, there is some chance that the crafter and customer are actually going to talk....
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:03 am
#109
this is not true. read through the FAQ's in the ctrl-H screen. near the top is the statement that afk marcoing is perfectly acceptable according to the TOS. third party programs are of course against the TOS, but it says there in no uncertain terms inthe FAQ that using the games internal mechanisms to afk macro is not a violation of the TOS.
babyblue_d wrote:
According to the TOS afk macroing of any kind not just third party is bannable ..odd isnt it that the devs put in a tool thatthay could ban you for useing?
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:59 am
#110
LonelyGhost wrote:
This isnt about putting Industrialists out of business or devaluing the time spent by powergamers. Its about making this GAME fun for *everyone* who plays. At least give these non-powergamers a chance.
that is done already. non-powergamers have a chance. I do have two accounts but that hardly qualifies me as a "power gamer" most everyone I have encountered in this game has multiple accounts except the pure newbies.
Remember, I can be considered a powergamer myself considering I have 2 accounts and play every day. The proposal for revamping crafting to grant hand-crafting a small bonus is a valid one. It would reward those who take the time needed to craft stuff. I'm sorry, but having donr the factory thing, its just math. With a very basic spreadsheet and either buying from Miners or using your own lot-swap farms, its not hard. Tedious, yes! Hard, no!
What is your point on this? Everyone deserves the same rewards for their crafting efforts whether they use factories or not. Any claim to the contrary is completely unfair.
Seriously, I challenge anyone of you large producers to take a month off. Stop any and all crafting for at least 1 month. I guarantee the void left will be filled.
Been there. Done that. I'm sure somebody sold more in the interim. When I came back and started crafting again and restocked my vendors, my sales went right back to where they were before I took the time off. I've even emptied vendors completely, taken them all down. Moved all my houses, replaced my vendors and completely reset up shop in a new location. That whole process took more than a month. But within a couple of months I was re-established at the new location and selling droids again with no difficulties. Shoot during that month off, I accidentally forgot to put enough maintenance in my factories. Both of my factories were destroyed and ALL of my subcomponents and extra resources were permanently lost. I literally had to restart fresh. And guess what, it wasn't that big of a deal. I re-established my vendors, slowly build up my sales presence again and the game went on...
I I would bet that some of that void woudl be filled by new crafters who see that the demand for their goods has surged back to life. I bet these crafters will be able to have success that had been missing from them before.
This it the part of your argument that has no weight and no sense to it. Any two crafters that are crafting the same quality product, whether they are a new crafter or an established crafter are facing the same demand. It is completely and totally impossible for one player to take "demand" away from another player. The only obstacle facing a new player is getting his vendor known. Nothing I or anyone else does has any power to block another player's efforts to place and advertise his vendors.
I guess what it all comes down to for me is finding a way to make the gameplay of new and casual gamers as rewarding as the gameplay of the powergamers.
The only way this makes any sense in the context of the discussion is if you define "casual gamer" to be "someone who does not use a factory" and then define "powergamer" to be "someone who does use a factory". But those are both absurd definitions.
Offering a small bonus to hand crafting will most certainly help new players, since those new to the game or new to crafting will not likely be able to get into factory work for quite some time.
I completely disagree. factory work is no big deal. the obstacle to new crafters is the fact that at the non-master level your products are inferior because of lack of experimentation points. hand-crafting vs. factory-crafting has absolutley nothing to do with it.
no amount of bonuses to hand-crafting is going to change that unless the hand-crafting bonuses are so great that they are more important than the benefits of the experimentation points that the new crafter lacks. And if the bonuses are that great they most definitely will not be small. so far as factory use goes, in most craftingprofessions, unless the player ground his way through the profession without ever really trying to craft anything interesting, the player will already have experience with factories before he becomes a master because he will have encountered schematics prior to the masters box that require factory made components. I was using factories as early as 1 0 0 3 as a DE. and I already had two factories set up before I was a master. I couldn't afford to buy factories as a new player either. I temporarily took up architect and I built myself my own factories. lucky for me as a DE, the equipment factory is rather low.
Right now the game is really in favor of the multi-acount player. Heck, its why *I* got a second account.
Now with this, I totally agree. I set up my second account for storage purposes mostly, and also so I could have a second "pure combat" toon on the same server as my main crafter. I wholly admit that. I do think the game is set up to make it hard on the single account player, and I do think that is somewhat unfair. Of course, this hand-crafting vs. factory-crafting issue does nothing to address that issue, and I can't think of any way to address that issue really short of completely re-architecting the entire game, which isn't going to happen.
That said, the single account player has means of competing with the multiple account player without getting a second account. Access to a good guild can completely offset the lack of extra lots. Good guilds share resources and lots. Other possibilities are if the single account player can sacrifice some of the pack rat mentality that we all have. If the single account player has no house, places his vendor in an established mall that is owned by somebody else and uses all of his lots for factories and harvesters, he can do fine. That is a lot to ask and is the reason that I agree it is somewhat unfair to the single account player. But it is by no means impossible for them to compete. The single account player just has fewer choices. He either has to get some friends who will share their lots or he needs to make difficult sacrifices with how he uses his own lots. Yes it is unfair, but unless you remove admin rights and make it impossible for players to trade resources and money, there really is no way to address this with a game that limits the number of characters per server per account.
You might even say that I believe the small mom & pop shops is better for the game overall, as opposed to the WalMart approach we have now. WalMarts put people out of business.
WalMart's don't really exist in this game and it is impossible for anyone to really be put out of business. The key difference between this game and RLis that anybody can set up a vendor at any time just about any where with little cost and little overhead. And nobody can stop them from doing so. Another key difference between this game and RL is that the infrastructure required to run a business has very little overhead. Maintenance on any characters lots and vendors can easily be afforded by doing a couple of missions a night if sales are down, and any player can thereby keep a business that sells nothing up and running for ever. That doesn't happen in real life. In real life rent is expensive, licenses are expensive, property taxes are expensive, and because of those things, if your shop isn't succesfull you have to close your doors. In this game, if your shop isn't successfull you do missions to make money on the side and cover your basic overhead until the shop is successfull, and it really isn't a big deal.
This is a GAME. I think we can agree on that. Just because you or I pay more per month for multiple accounts does not mean we get to have more fun than others...
Like I already said, I agree with that. But nothing we are discussing in this thread and nothing you have proposed really addresses that issue at all.
and especially not at the other players expense. Maybe seeing 3 new players who joined our Guild quit becuase the *work* required to try and establish a business under the shadow of WalMart just kinda soured me on the issue. Playing 10 hours a day with 2 or more accounts wasnt fun for them, neither was fighting, so they moved on.
People who quit because of this fictional "WalMart" notions probably just didn't really like the crafting game much in the first place. Large shops have no real power in this game the way they do in real life. The only power anybody really has over anybody else is via the setting of their prices. People can't lower their prices below the cost of the resources and still make a profit. This fact in general keeps prices up to a point where new players can afford to come in and compete.
As for playing 10 hours a day is concerned.... I have never played this game for 10 hours in one day. I typically don't play more than 2 or 3 hours a day on average, and I do just fine. Shoot there are many weeks in which I don't play at all. I do have a life outside the game to deal with.The way I have dealt with playing less frequently is to lessen the range of things I sell and then slightly raise my prices so I can make a little more money off what I do sell. No big deal. If your friends who quit or anyone else thinks you need to play 10 hours a day to compete in the crafting game, they are just plain wrong.
If they had the opportunity to set up a shop and fill a niche in a small region on some planet, they woudl still be playing, and having fun today.
Apparently not. Because they had that opportunity, as we all do. And they didn't take it.
Jenden
Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:14 am
#111
Snikrop wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
babyblue_d wrote:
Snikrop wrote:
A change like the one discussed here encourages third party mouse macro software, and until the very nature of crafting in the game changes from a system that's mouse macroable this debate isn't productive.
Third party programs of any kind are agenst the TOS and are a bannable offence.
His point is valid though. How many people did you hear have been banned for using a 3rd part ap to grind through a profession for a hologrind? I havn't heard of any. Some people may actually do this to make the hand crafted items.
I can hear complaints already. If somebody has 100 Hand crafted droids on their vendor, the next thing you know people will be accusing them of cheating to get them.
I don't thnik this is a large enough issue to really impact this discussion, but it is a possibility.
Thanks! I think the important thing that must change in the crafting world is the very nature of how we craft. AT least in combat there's enough timing and decision making that most combat macros involve meat lump hunting. ALL of the crafting is so easy it's boring and mouse macroable. Where's the room in the crafting process for experimentation as a real process? Let's make crafting _fun_ before we spend hours fixing a system that's really a lot less entertaining than working at Subway...
Granted I've never looked at any of the third party macros so I'm not sure what all they could pull off, but I'd imagine the fact that you don't know if A. you're item will crit fail on assembly or B. how the experimentation rolls will go a third party macro wouldn't work too well. getting a good or amazing success instead of a great may throw the process off.
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:40 am
#112
Jenden wrote:
Snikrop wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
babyblue_d wrote:
Snikrop wrote:
A change like the one discussed here encourages third party mouse macro software, and until the very nature of crafting in the game changes from a system that's mouse macroable this debate isn't productive.
Third party programs of any kind are agenst the TOS and are a bannable offence.
His point is valid though. How many people did you hear have been banned for using a 3rd part ap to grind through a profession for a hologrind? I havn't heard of any. Some people may actually do this to make the hand crafted items.
I can hear complaints already. If somebody has 100 Hand crafted droids on their vendor, the next thing you know people will be accusing them of cheating to get them.
I don't thnik this is a large enough issue to really impact this discussion, but it is a possibility.
Thanks! I think the important thing that must change in the crafting world is the very nature of how we craft. AT least in combat there's enough timing and decision making that most combat macros involve meat lump hunting. ALL of the crafting is so easy it's boring and mouse macroable. Where's the room in the crafting process for experimentation as a real process? Let's make crafting _fun_ before we spend hours fixing a system that's really a lot less entertaining than working at Subway...
Granted I've never looked at any of the third party macros so I'm not sure what all they could pull off, but I'd imagine the fact that you don't know if A. you're item will crit fail on assembly or B. how the experimentation rolls will go a third party macro wouldn't work too well. getting a good or amazing success instead of a great may throw the process off.
you're surely right on that point. I've never used a third party program either, but I know how they tend to work. And with all the randomunknowns in a crafting session, a third party program that does real crafting (not grind crafting where everything is a practice item, but real crafting), would be difficult to do. Not impossible, nothing is impossible, but difficult.
In any case, before we go railing and worrying about the evil of third party programs used in realcrafting, we should probably find out if anybody is actually using them for this. I've certainly not heard that anyone is doing so. There probably are a few people using them for combat work out there. But for crafting? Why bother when a factory does the same thing?
Note: I'm not talking, or even worrying about the possibility that people might use third party programs to grind (practice) crafting. That would be considerably easier to do. While I don't think that is very cool either (and it is a violation of the TOS), it wouldn't hurt the marketplace becuase grind crafting doesn't produce any sellable product.
JavelinCatcher
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:24 pm
#113
babyblue_d wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
As another example....for 6 months now I have been looking for a set of 50% composite. I don't want the 85% composite that is on every vendor in the galaxy. What I want is a encumberance experimented suit of armor with lesser resists that I can wear WITHOUT being buffed. I can't find a single hand-crafter that is willing to make it for me.
you just helped us make our point ... theres no reason to hand craft .. why do it? most wont.
Not really. Encumberance customized armor also requires high malleability materials....which most AS don't keep in stock because it doesn't sell (because the resistances are usually poor).
LonelyGhost
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:32 pm
#114
Random snips....
...Let me give you an example from my experience.../snip (custom weapons, 50% Composite, Ubese vendor)
Excellent examples. It actually onlu highlights the issue I have with the big businesses. Why *would* anyone try to set up the system you speak of?! Why bother when Joe Industrialist has every possible armor combination of a vendor right around the corner? Its *EXACTLY* this kind of thing I would love to see changed. I would LOVE to find Crafters in their shops, hand-crafting goods for special orders and walk-in's. That would be very cool! But, again, why shoudl they? Most people just go to the Industrialist shop where there is NO wait, and they get what they need. These people generally DONT want interaction, they just want to get back to looting and slaying. If there was a *reason* to seek out the SPecialized crafter, boy, how cool would that be?!
Excellent examples. It actually onlu highlights the issue I have with the big businesses. Why *would* anyone try to set up the system you speak of?! Why bother when Joe Industrialist has every possible armor combination of a vendor right around the corner? Its *EXACTLY* this kind of thing I would love to see changed. I would LOVE to find Crafters in their shops, hand-crafting goods for special orders and walk-in's. That would be very cool! But, again, why shoudl they? Most people just go to the Industrialist shop where there is NO wait, and they get what they need. These people generally DONT want interaction, they just want to get back to looting and slaying. If there was a *reason* to seek out the SPecialized crafter, boy, how cool would that be?!
...People who value convenience and one-stop-shopping got to Wal-Mart. People who value service do not. There are BOTH types of customers in the market, and consequently a market for BOTH types of crafters.
We agree! But there is that little problem that it is too expensive and too unrewarding for some people to try and run a custom, service-oriented shop under the WalMart's shadow.
We agree! But there is that little problem that it is too expensive and too unrewarding for some people to try and run a custom, service-oriented shop under the WalMart's shadow.
...Hand-crafters can do everything industrialists can do, do do everything industrialists do, and there is no justification for them to recieve any "premium" or bonus just because they craft things the way they want to. If they are providing excellent service to customers, the customers will appreciate and pay for that service. If they are running throught he crafting process in a little different way, pushing tool buttons instead of factory buttons, I just don't see the need to reward that.
Maybe I and others have been talking too much about the "reward" thing. Its not really all about the "reward". To me, its more about giving MORE people the chance to play this GAME and have fun. Its not fun to have to resort to taking charity from a Guild member or to run survey missions because you cant afford to pay the maint on the Windmills you are using to power your 1 medium and 3 personal harvs.
Maybe I and others have been talking too much about the "reward" thing. Its not really all about the "reward". To me, its more about giving MORE people the chance to play this GAME and have fun. Its not fun to have to resort to taking charity from a Guild member or to run survey missions because you cant afford to pay the maint on the Windmills you are using to power your 1 medium and 3 personal harvs.
...Both Industrialists and hand-crafters can charge the EXACT same price for similar quality goods. The only difference is that IF an industrialist spends a bunch more money and resources to make more goods, AND IF the industrialist can actually attract enough customer to buy those goods, they can make more money in the same amount of time. You will note that those are two REALLY big ifs. They have to both spend a truckload more money AND find customers to buy their mass produced goods. That is no simple task, and is not any easier than hand-crafting to be sure.
The established crafters have already filled in most of the requirements you state. Its the NEW crafter, and ONLY the new crafter, that is at a *significant* advantage in the face of the Industrialist operations. The Established people HAVE the millions they need, the fleets of harvs, the return customers, the word of mouth, the best resources, the distribution networks..... Again I ask, would it really hurt the Industrialist to cut back maybe 20% of their sales? Sales that will go to the standard, hand-crafting players? Those "other" people trying to have fun in the same profesions?
....Practically, there is NO difference between the goods of the good industrialists and hand-crafters. The difference is the amount of customer interaction the crafter wishes to have.
The difference is in the volume of business. The glut of product offerd up by the Industrialist, top quality product even, makes the same top-quality product harder to move if you do not have a reputation for having a stuffed vendor like many Industrialists. How many of you, when you take your last sip of Brandy, think to yourself..."Hmmm, I think I will head to Tatooine and see who's selling Brandy there. Maybe I'll score a great deal on it." What I suspoect many of us think instead is "Hmmm, I can drop by (insert Industrialist name) on the way out to (insert destination). I dont care that they charge 20% more than the market value, I dont want to spend the time looking for Brandy...I just want it as fast as I can get it!"
The difference is in the volume of business. The glut of product offerd up by the Industrialist, top quality product even, makes the same top-quality product harder to move if you do not have a reputation for having a stuffed vendor like many Industrialists. How many of you, when you take your last sip of Brandy, think to yourself..."Hmmm, I think I will head to Tatooine and see who's selling Brandy there. Maybe I'll score a great deal on it." What I suspoect many of us think instead is "Hmmm, I can drop by (insert Industrialist name) on the way out to (insert destination). I dont care that they charge 20% more than the market value, I dont want to spend the time looking for Brandy...I just want it as fast as I can get it!"
....If you are saying someone who puts in no time building their business should be able to make EXACTLY the same product through hand crafting, and that experienced players need to be "equalized" with new and less experienced players, I beg to differ.
I am saying that if people dont have the CAPACITY to put in 10 or more hours a day with maybe even a couple acconts, that they should STILL have a chance to draw enough sales so they can have FUN playing the game. Its not about making Joe NEwbie on par with TK...its about making Joe Newbie able to have FUN *DESPITE* the difference in time in game each day. What you speak of hints at Elitism, and that can be a dangerous thing. Yes! Established crafters have advantages due to time and effort spent. But currently the chasm is wide. Is it really going to hurt the Insustrialist to make the same 1,000 items a week, but sell 10% less because *some* people want that little extra boost hand crafting can bring? Will the Industrialist stop having FUN?
I am saying that if people dont have the CAPACITY to put in 10 or more hours a day with maybe even a couple acconts, that they should STILL have a chance to draw enough sales so they can have FUN playing the game. Its not about making Joe NEwbie on par with TK...its about making Joe Newbie able to have FUN *DESPITE* the difference in time in game each day. What you speak of hints at Elitism, and that can be a dangerous thing. Yes! Established crafters have advantages due to time and effort spent. But currently the chasm is wide. Is it really going to hurt the Insustrialist to make the same 1,000 items a week, but sell 10% less because *some* people want that little extra boost hand crafting can bring? Will the Industrialist stop having FUN?
....Sure, in the initial setup, but inside of week or two it's down to a quick harvester/factory runs every couple days and stocking the vendor.
That is exactly the point of this thread. Stop the factory madness!
Crafting is about more than loading schematics all day long.
That is exactly the point of this thread. Stop the factory madness!
Crafting is about more than loading schematics all day long....Supply and demand would indicate the above, but I meet very few new crafters, and even fewer with the vision of an operation of the scale of producers leaving the market.
You meet very few crafters, you say...I wonder why? Is it because many who start down that road quickly realize they have no chance to get a decent slice of the pie? ALso, why does it have to be a vision of such magnitude? Do wepresume that a crafter must have the kind of volume many of us are used to seeing? Instead of these new crafters each trying to build an operation as large as the departing Industrialist, maybe there would be 10 new crafters to replace one Industrialist?
You meet very few crafters, you say...I wonder why? Is it because many who start down that road quickly realize they have no chance to get a decent slice of the pie? ALso, why does it have to be a vision of such magnitude? Do wepresume that a crafter must have the kind of volume many of us are used to seeing? Instead of these new crafters each trying to build an operation as large as the departing Industrialist, maybe there would be 10 new crafters to replace one Industrialist?
...Experienced crafters, for example like TK and Audio, deserve to be rewarded for the long hours they have put into gathering resources, skill tapes, and streamlineing their crafting process so that they can provide a great product to their customers.
Do they deserve to be "rewarded" at the expense of others? Again, would it really be less fun fo them to cut back maybe 10 or 20% of their production? Its gotta be a weight off, doing less. Running a big business, even in SWG, is work.
Do they deserve to be "rewarded" at the expense of others? Again, would it really be less fun fo them to cut back maybe 10 or 20% of their production? Its gotta be a weight off, doing less. Running a big business, even in SWG, is work.
...This it the part of your argument that has no weight and no sense to it. Any two crafters that are crafting the same quality product, whether they are a new crafter or an established crafter are facing the same demand.
Sure, the same demand, but not the same sales. I refer you to my Q above about where do YOU go when you need new Equipemt? Do you look around, or go straight to someone you know because you KNOW they will have what you want? And again, THIS is why granting a small bonus to hand-crafting will spread out the sales a tiny bit. If you KNOW your regular vendor has "standard uber" equipment on it, but that you will probably be able to find some "extra uber" stuff if you shop around a litle bit, your money will be spread outsome.
Sure, the same demand, but not the same sales. I refer you to my Q above about where do YOU go when you need new Equipemt? Do you look around, or go straight to someone you know because you KNOW they will have what you want? And again, THIS is why granting a small bonus to hand-crafting will spread out the sales a tiny bit. If you KNOW your regular vendor has "standard uber" equipment on it, but that you will probably be able to find some "extra uber" stuff if you shop around a litle bit, your money will be spread outsome.
...The only way this makes any sense in the context of the discussion is if you define "casual gamer" to be "someone who does not use a factory" and then define "powergamer" to be "someone who does use a factory". But those are both absurd definitions
These definitions are pretty well established. Powergamers have multiple accounts and play all the time. Every day, maybe? 10 hours or more? 30-50 hours a week? Casual gamers play on the weekend, maybe at night after they get off work, and after the kids are asleep. You seem to be *trying* to be difficult now. I (obviously) love a good debate, but it sours it when people do that.
These definitions are pretty well established. Powergamers have multiple accounts and play all the time. Every day, maybe? 10 hours or more? 30-50 hours a week? Casual gamers play on the weekend, maybe at night after they get off work, and after the kids are asleep. You seem to be *trying* to be difficult now. I (obviously) love a good debate, but it sours it when people do that.
...non-master level your products are inferior because of lack of experimentation points. hand-crafting vs. factory-crafting has absolutley nothing to do with it.
Yes, that is true, and I too wish the Devs would make low-end items fully experimentable by lower level crafters...but thats another topic. And yet again, its NOT about the quality as much as it is about spreading the business around! Factories means many many times the QUANTITY of goods than a hand-crafter can produce unless they like sitting for hours filling up their inventory over and over again. Even then, the Industrialist runs several factories at once, and no hand crafter can keep up with that.
Yes, that is true, and I too wish the Devs would make low-end items fully experimentable by lower level crafters...but thats another topic. And yet again, its NOT about the quality as much as it is about spreading the business around! Factories means many many times the QUANTITY of goods than a hand-crafter can produce unless they like sitting for hours filling up their inventory over and over again. Even then, the Industrialist runs several factories at once, and no hand crafter can keep up with that.
...WalMart's don't really exist in this game and it is impossible for anyone to really be put out of business.
Are you crazy!? Yes they can, and DO exist! ANy vendor that has more than 800 lines of goods IS a WalMart! Guess what? There is a shop on my server with more than 8 vendors, and ALL of them have at least 500 items on them. They are run by a single layer with (at least) 4 accoutns, and who uses his familites accounts for lots too. And yes, he has large lot-swapped harv farms. SO, in the face of this person, gobblng up sales due to the low prices and plentiful selection, 2 people I "took under my wing" quit. They joined SWG to be in that profession, and could not do it. They weren't willing to make this GAME into a job, which is what would have been required to even attempt to compete with this person. No one I know likes to run missions for cash...and they shoudn't HAVE to as a master of a profession. They did not expect to make millions, but making enough to be able to go out and have fun would have been great. So, its true that they weren't "put out of business"...they never got it off the ground!
Are you crazy!? Yes they can, and DO exist! ANy vendor that has more than 800 lines of goods IS a WalMart! Guess what? There is a shop on my server with more than 8 vendors, and ALL of them have at least 500 items on them. They are run by a single layer with (at least) 4 accoutns, and who uses his familites accounts for lots too. And yes, he has large lot-swapped harv farms. SO, in the face of this person, gobblng up sales due to the low prices and plentiful selection, 2 people I "took under my wing" quit. They joined SWG to be in that profession, and could not do it. They weren't willing to make this GAME into a job, which is what would have been required to even attempt to compete with this person. No one I know likes to run missions for cash...and they shoudn't HAVE to as a master of a profession. They did not expect to make millions, but making enough to be able to go out and have fun would have been great. So, its true that they weren't "put out of business"...they never got it off the ground!
...Large shops have no real power in this game the way they do in real life. The only power anybody really has over anybody else is via the setting of their prices. People can't lower their prices below the cost of the resources and still make a profit. This fact in general keeps prices up to a point where new players can afford to come in and compete.
Man, I ought to come to your server! Large shops offer the ability to get anything you want, as fast as you can boogie on over to the location. Large shops run by Industrialist offer solid, low-ish prices. The cost to pull resources is about .5cpu. Thats HALF of 1 credit. And thats if you BUY your power at 1.5cpu. Thats a pretty low number for a new person to meet and be able to grow at all. Running missions to pay for harvs is not fun.
Man, I ought to come to your server! Large shops offer the ability to get anything you want, as fast as you can boogie on over to the location. Large shops run by Industrialist offer solid, low-ish prices. The cost to pull resources is about .5cpu. Thats HALF of 1 credit. And thats if you BUY your power at 1.5cpu. Thats a pretty low number for a new person to meet and be able to grow at all. Running missions to pay for harvs is not fun.
...Apparently not. Because they had that opportunity, as we all do. And they didn't take it.
They had the opportunity, and did not get the sales. Again and again I have said it, but is true. There is NO reason for people to shop around for stuff when they KNOW they can get the exact same (or better) thing at an Industrialist shop. But a hand-crafted thing, with a small bonus might prompt them to seek out an alternative source for their goods. SOme of them at least.
They had the opportunity, and did not get the sales. Again and again I have said it, but is true. There is NO reason for people to shop around for stuff when they KNOW they can get the exact same (or better) thing at an Industrialist shop. But a hand-crafted thing, with a small bonus might prompt them to seek out an alternative source for their goods. SOme of them at least.
Would it really hurt for the Industrialists to cut back their volume? Would you *really* stop having fun if you sold 5 million a week instead of 20 million? Would the new crafters be able to have fun if they had a valuable product to sell in small quatities, enabling them to carry on in the game?
Akkori
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:43 pm
#115
It should be stated again that this isnt just about DE. Its a concept applied to ALL professions. Its likely this issue (and it IS an issue or it wouldnt have a debate around it) is one of the things at the root of the mysterious rumored "lot rebalance" we heard about. Industrialists benefit from using many more lots than was designed. And just becuase "anyone" can do it doesnt mean they should. Not everyone needs 8 digits in their bank account to have fun.
TheRealTK421
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:49 pm
#116
Correct....and to see if we can't find some reason to actually hand-craft. Right now, I just don't see (for the most part).
Akkori wrote:
It should be stated again that this isnt just about DE. Its a concept applied to ALL professions.
/bow
Respectfully,
Gron_DM
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:52 pm
#117
lol
well 2 things ive read reading this whole post....most successful crafters are "powergamers" there are a few that are not but assuming you are stocking over 100 droids and stuff for said droids and BH droids ect ect you are probably a powergamer/industrialist(some more then others +400 droid sellers...). Droids dont really fit the mold of this why a handcraft vs fac qual is a big deal to the economy...here is why.
Examples have been listed above, armor has a higher resale value, weapons have higher sale rate. Droids for the most part are handcrafted, at least the last step. some do all fac runs on there droids, most DE's dont though they fac run there subcomps and handcraft final combos and maybe a few fac run clusters.....point is this handcraft differences wont change the DE market much. The hassle of face to face sales will keep most crafters away from this and some who thrive on this will do well. overall most ppl like having a well stocked vendor that they can return too, and those social butterfly buyers will get there in person sold droid....everyones happy right?
These changes wouldnt amount to much is my point, at least not in the DE world...unless the bonus was very large and if it was it would completly rock the WS/AS/Archy and those areas are much larger to the economy as we DE's know. So to sum, based on changes the devs ussually introduce to crafting any improvement to handcrafted goods will have little to no effect on DE's goods but in cases of WS/AS/archy a few points diff will affect there markets/economies much more drastically.
Just my 2 creds.