Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Gavvot
Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:33 pm
#118
TheRealTK421 wrote:Correct....and to see if we can't find some reason to actually hand-craft. Right now, I just don't see (for the most part).
Akkori wrote:
It should be stated again that this isnt just about DE. Its a concept applied to ALL professions.
/bow
Respectfully,
Beside the speed, for low volume (hand crafting IS faster).
The other "advantage" is that when you use a factory, all your product are of equal quality whatever happen.
When you handcraft, you have a "very small" chance to have better result, but at the price of a "not so small" chance to have worse result.
When you hand craft, you should have a higher chance to have a better result, but the problem is that the way factory and schematics works for the moment make that change impossible because there is no difference between making a schematics and a hand crafter item.
Gavvot
Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:59 pm
#119
Hum,
I've been thinking.
This discussion is too theorical to lead somewhere.
How about concrete proposals, just for brainstorming.
Here is one : at the begining of the crafting process, before the assembly stage, you have a hand-crafted checkbox.
When you check this box, you have a 20% or 30% increase in chance to have a critical success in assambly and experimentation.
But, if you check the box, you cannot create a schematic out of the final result.
This way, you don't have to handcraft every single part to have the handcrafting bonus, but only the parts that matters.
And it will give you an interesting bonus (like a FS skill or skill tapes) at the cost of not being able to use this bonus for factory runs.
Maybe this bonus could be given as a reward from a quest related to the crafting profession.
Like a last year student project in a way.
I think something like that would make handcrafting more interesting without making factory use obsolete.
I've been thinking.
This discussion is too theorical to lead somewhere.
How about concrete proposals, just for brainstorming.
Here is one : at the begining of the crafting process, before the assembly stage, you have a hand-crafted checkbox.
When you check this box, you have a 20% or 30% increase in chance to have a critical success in assambly and experimentation.
But, if you check the box, you cannot create a schematic out of the final result.
This way, you don't have to handcraft every single part to have the handcrafting bonus, but only the parts that matters.
And it will give you an interesting bonus (like a FS skill or skill tapes) at the cost of not being able to use this bonus for factory runs.
Maybe this bonus could be given as a reward from a quest related to the crafting profession.
Like a last year student project in a way.
I think something like that would make handcrafting more interesting without making factory use obsolete.
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:20 pm
#120
I'm sorry you feel that way LonelyGhost. But in your reply to my post you intentionally pulled out secondary details and responded to those and ignored my primary points. So there isn't really anything for me to say in response other than to say "read my argument" again. In your latest rebuttal you ingored most of it and only reiterated your original points. And you accuse me of being difficult?
/shrug
If the developers think they have some need to increase the incentive to hand-craft then fine. Let them do it. But this complaint about factories making hand crafting unviable because the production rate of factories is so much higher is irrational. Factories make more. Nothing is going to change that. You can't move the same volume as someone who uses a factory if you don't use a factory. Nothing is ever going to change that. And whining about it is silly. That isn't ever going to change unless factories are removed from the game. If you expect adding slight benefits to the hand-crafter is going to address the volume issue that you are complaining aboutthen you have set your expectations too high. It is not going to happen.
If a crafter chooses not to use a factory then he is going to have to live with a low volume business. If that is a problem, then go do something else. But don't complain about it. IMO, it's no different than complaining that you can't solo the DWB.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-11-2004 03:25 PM
Malitevv
Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:22 pm
#121
Gavvot wrote:
Hum,
I've been thinking.
This discussion is too theorical to lead somewhere.
How about concrete proposals, just for brainstorming.
I made some previously. It sounds like Straker looked at them. I'm not sure anybody else has noticed them. 
Gavvot
Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:31 pm
#122
Well,
sorry,
I have alot of trouble reading very long post with very few formating.
So, I skipped a few pages.
That's the problem with those kind of thread.
especially when entering in the reply, quote, cut and add color game come in place.
Maybe make a new thread with only proposals and a thread to discuss the proposal that would make things more clear.
But I have a feeling that the dev already have their idea on how to do it, we just don't know, and it's frustrating.
sorry,
I have alot of trouble reading very long post with very few formating.
So, I skipped a few pages.
That's the problem with those kind of thread.
especially when entering in the reply, quote, cut and add color game come in place.
Maybe make a new thread with only proposals and a thread to discuss the proposal that would make things more clear.
But I have a feeling that the dev already have their idea on how to do it, we just don't know, and it's frustrating.
Chavabegga
Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:43 pm
#123
I think hand crafting bonuses would be great. With weapons the only way to make them look cool with stocks and scopes is to hand craft them. It would be great if there were stat bonuses as well. Would give me a reason to make some guns more often then once every few months do a factory run.
As for droids well I am not what exactly bonuses they could get but R2 was "An extremely well put together droid" who saved his ship and everyone else in the movies. Maybe allow hand built R2's the ability to fly around on rockets like R2 did in Ep2.
babyblue_d
Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:23 pm
#124
Malitevv wrote:
this complaint about factories making hand crafting unviable because the production rate of factories is so much higher is irrational.
ok you feel its irational .. butthe handcrafters have put forth evidence to the contary. Where is the proof that its irrational? it should be ez to prove.heres our proof again made ez. off the top of your head list off the crafters you know for armorsmiths: are any of them hand crafters? now do Weapionsmiths: architechs:
if you had a hard time coming up with names of hand crafters that proves its a industreal run economy. This is becouse if you want to compeat you MUST run a factory. are factorys the "end game" many say it is but should it be REQUIERED to compeat? should you not be aloud to have a "some" customers becouse you dont run factorys? Next you will say but factorys dont let me make beter items just more.. and thats exactly it. i make the SAME ITEMS. why come to my shop that might not have it the big guy will have it. now if mine was slightlybetter (say my guns had 10 max damage) you would shop me first? Maby some timesbutnot always. butI cant keep up the out you canput so where whould you go next? to the indistral guy again. we would not be killing industy its just that we would stand a chance with our choice
Factories make more. Nothing is going to change that. You can't move the same volume as someone who uses a factory if you don't use a factory.
/agree.. this is not in dispute ... just asking to be able to sell SOME stuff .. for me if i dont know the guy and its not a "custom" order no one browsis my vendor
Nothing is ever going to change that. And whining about it is silly.
we are not whining we are makeing arguments in a calm and just maner.
If you expect adding slight benefits to the hand-crafter is going to address the volume issue that you are complaining aboutthen you have set your expectations too high. It is not going to happen.
its not a "volume issue" as much as a "volume vs quality issue" and yes we beleve it will off set the volume just enoff that we all can win.
If a crafter chooses not to use a factory then he is going to have to live with a low volume business. If that is a problem, then go do something else. But don't complain about it.
so a crafter should be rewarded for using a factory and punised if he desides not to? why should he have to live with it ? be couse thats how the game is made? we the game was made for 100 item factory runs but a bug let you make more, when this was going to change factory crafters yelled so much it was no longer made a bug and was added. why should we live with it if you dont have to.
Malitevv you make good points.
but do you see where we are comeing from?
Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-11-2004 11:12 PM
LonelyGhost
Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:58 pm
#125
SOrry if you feel I left out what you might consider "winning" points from your post, butin my perspective, those little "between the lines" sentences bear more weight. In essence, you try to support your primary viewpoint with faulty or unsound evidence and examples. I couldn't care less about how this will affect any ONE person out there. And that includes me. I reduse to argue this from the perspective of a player in this game. Well, thats my goal, at least, heheh. I have been trying to argue this point from the perspective of the WHOLE game! Specific individuals are irrelevant when you consider the macrosphere that is the crafting game in SWG. Right now the environment rewards those who have millions of credits, tens of millions of resources, and dozens of lots. The solo orcasual gamer gets left out unless they can meet the minimum requirments.
I want *everyone* to have fun. I want the Industrialist to have fun runnign factories and providing a plethora of goods the the whole Galaxy. I want the new and solo crafter to be able to sell specialty items (specialty meaning a small boost in quality or efectiveness). This *CAN* happen. But it needs help to get started. Right now, you either play by the Industrialist rules, or you dont play. Thats not fair. Thats not fair in this GAME. Thats not fair to the person who joined Galaxies becuase they thought it would be really cool to sell weapons to people and maintain an "Outfitter" shop. This person can not, or will not go to the lengths the Industrialist will go to. Should they *have* to pay to play this game and *then* meet the stadards set by the established WalMarts becuase they dont want to make 5 million a week instead of 20? Seriously, Malitev, will you *really* have less fun if your income is less than 5 million a week (I dont know or want to know what you make...think of this as a rhetorical question)?
babyblue_d
Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:11 am
#126
Malitevv wrote:
this is not true. read through the FAQ's in the ctrl-H screen. near the top is the statement that afk marcoing is perfectly acceptable according to the TOS. third party programs are of course against the TOS, but it says there in no uncertain terms inthe FAQ that using the games internal mechanisms to afk macro is not a violation of the TOS.
ThisI did not know thank you.but there it is firstone in the FAQ &it does contradict the TOS. intresting
7. You acknowledge that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the Software License and Limited Warranty that accompanies the Game. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the software, artwork, music, and other components included in the accompanying CD-ROM (the "Software") or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software or to change game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators; additionally, you may not engage in matchmaking for multi-player play over unauthorized networks. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server; you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors.
babyblue_d
Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:28 am
#127
Daker-Naritus wrote:
As another example....for 6 months now I have been looking for a set of 50% composite. I don't want the 85% composite that is on every vendor in the galaxy. What I want is a encumberance experimented suit of armor with lesser resists that I can wear WITHOUT being buffed. I can't find a single hand-crafter that is willing to make it for me.
you just helped us make our point ... theres no reason to hand craft .. why do it? most wont.
these changs would fix this. and this is part of the core argument. why should anyone hand craft ifcustomer service is the only reasson and the trade off is you make less cash whats the point .. its ezer to stock a vendor with tons of stuff knowing if one playerdont buy it another will. this wouldbe enoff reasson forSOME to store the factorty and start hand crafting again not for others and thats why it wont hurt the game but help it
Brennox
Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:27 am
#128
Best...idea...ever
And if you combine it with giving novice crafters 9 experimentation points and the tenth at master, you have, in my eyes, 'balanced' crafting.
novice can compete with master -> handcrafting produces equal stats weapons as the masters factory runs
masters can make FS XP in a usefull manner -> hand craft great items
a 10 lot weaponsmith can actually compete with a 50 lot, 5 accounts one -> id like to see the 5 accounts WS make 50 heavy harvy resources worth of weapons a day.
To everyone opposed to this: WHY? This wont hurt you in any way other then allowing the more dedicated crafters to, dare i say it, rightfully take a small bite out of your HUGE business.
Factories will still be producing the same quality items as always. You will still be making millions off your 50 lot traded accounts.
You just wont be able to go 'Microsoft' on that small crafter's behind anymore.
5 Stars for this idea.
PS. before you get the wrong idea, i am an industrialist/powergamer to the bone, but im also desperate for something 'special' to be added to crafting, to make it more personal instead of simply: getting the most of the best res == lots of the best possible products
And if you combine it with giving novice crafters 9 experimentation points and the tenth at master, you have, in my eyes, 'balanced' crafting.
novice can compete with master -> handcrafting produces equal stats weapons as the masters factory runs
masters can make FS XP in a usefull manner -> hand craft great items
a 10 lot weaponsmith can actually compete with a 50 lot, 5 accounts one -> id like to see the 5 accounts WS make 50 heavy harvy resources worth of weapons a day.
To everyone opposed to this: WHY? This wont hurt you in any way other then allowing the more dedicated crafters to, dare i say it, rightfully take a small bite out of your HUGE business.
Factories will still be producing the same quality items as always. You will still be making millions off your 50 lot traded accounts.
You just wont be able to go 'Microsoft' on that small crafter's behind anymore.
5 Stars for this idea.
PS. before you get the wrong idea, i am an industrialist/powergamer to the bone, but im also desperate for something 'special' to be added to crafting, to make it more personal instead of simply: getting the most of the best res == lots of the best possible products
Message Edited by Brennox on 09-12-2004 01:31 PM
Daker-Naritus
Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:39 am
#129
babyblue_d wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
As another example....for 6 months now I have been looking for a set of 50% composite. I don't want the 85% composite that is on every vendor in the galaxy. What I want is a encumberance experimented suit of armor with lesser resists that I can wear WITHOUT being buffed. I can't find a single hand-crafter that is willing to make it for me.
you just helped us make our point ... theres no reason to hand craft .. why do it? most wont.
these changs would fix this. and this is part of the core argument. why should anyone hand craft ifcustomer service is the only reasson and the trade off is you make less cash whats the point .. its ezer to stock a vendor with tons of stuff knowing if one playerdont buy it another will. this wouldbe enoff reasson forSOME to store the factorty and start hand crafting again not for others and thats why it wont hurt the game but help it
Totally not true. The point it shows is that there IS a market for hand-crafting...people just aren't tapping it....
Brennox
Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:31 am
#130
Daker-Naritus wrote:
babyblue_d wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:As another example....for 6 months now I have been looking for a set of 50% composite. I don't want the 85% composite that is on every vendor in the galaxy. What I want is a encumberance experimented suit of armor with lesser resists that I can wear WITHOUT being buffed. I can't find a single hand-crafter that is willing to make it for me.you just helped us make our point ... theres no reason to hand craft .. why do it? most wont.
these changs would fix this. and this is part of the core argument. why should anyone hand craft if customer service is the only reasson and the trade off is you make less cash whats the point .. its ezer to stock a vendor with tons of stuff knowing if one player dont buy it another will. this would be enoff reasson for SOME to store the factorty and start hand crafting again not for others and thats why it wont hurt the game but help it
Totally not true. The point it shows is that there IS a market for hand-crafting...people just aren't tapping it....
And people arent tapping it because its so depressingly small that a single AS could satisfy an entire servers demand, because lets face it, who uses up the most armor?
Powergamers do.
And what kind of armor do powergamers want? The 'best', which what alot of other people also want, simply because there IS a 'best' in armor -> high resist.
With doc buffs encumberance is almost a non-issue execpt for the few that dont get a standard buff and the helmet.
However, implementing a handcraft bonus combined with the combat revamp (aka doc buff and armor nerfs)WILL in fact create a very big market for handcrafted armor, in both the PvP "we gots to have the best" and PvE "High kenetic low encumb plz" scene.
Do it, i say, do it and we'll pick up the pieces afterwards if anything goes wrong, but atm crafting the best of the best is simply a matter of lot trades, lots of cash and multiple accounts.