Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Please help me understand your change of heart.
Just out of curiosity: Why? Based on their past machinations, I don't think it's a stretch to believe they said that.
AudioOrgana wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they have said "no droid cert system in any way shape or form".
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
Isn't there already a combat system redesign going on? aren't we already beefing up the entire game and restructuring combat since everyone is soloing reds?
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
no, there are way to make one work that would not create undue strain on combat balance. You just have to make sure they are not stackable into an "uber template" I have posted one alterintive in the other thread about drak's certs.
How many combat droids are we really talking about here? 3-6 maybe as many as 9, is that enough to base a whole new class on?
Droids should be as prevalent as swoopbikes, blasters, and aliens. it is a core aspect of Star Wars. To build any system that limits it to any one class would Rob us of our due. We All want droids.
There has to be a way to achive it.
TH,
The problem is that you keep reading this in the context of "powerful droids."
No one is talking about powerful droids. We are not talking CL70 droids, or even CL50 droids.
In the previous thread, DEs were torn between combat and crafting. The issue was related to droid handling, but only as follows:
Some DEs were asking to become droid handlers (in other words the DE profession ITSELFbecomes a CH/BE), some were asking for crafting only and new combat droids to sell to everyone, and some were somewhere in the middle and wanted to have both droids to sell and a DE-only droid or two. There were lots of subgroups within each of these, and the profession was very fragmented. I don't know where you got the "clearly DEs want a droid handler profession from this," but that was a minority, "just throwing the idea out there" thing.
After months of discussions (which I guess were all wasted) most DEs finally came around to agree with the following concept: DEs want new combat droids to sell, but want a droid advantage of some kind. DEs want new combat droids to sell to everyone (NOT UBER, as you have been representing) but want to be able to use them and maybe have a DE-only perk (Ex: multiple droids out at the same time).
Drashk's plan is the culmination of MONTHS of heated discussions between DEs, and I think it pretty muchlays outthe compromise we all envisioned. I don't think you should so quickly dismiss it.
Here is the current state of the game...We just had our 3200 HAM gurrecks nerfed. Most people were complaining about "pet wars"NOT because there were lots of pets, but because gurrecks and other creatures as pets are unstarwarsy. Most agreed that replacing gurrecks with droids WAS star warsy.
There is also a question of balance with a 3200 HAM pet, especially when paired with the fact that non-CHs were running around with 3 faction pets, a gurreck, and a probot. This problem went away when you limited all players to ONLY one pet and nerfed resistances on all pets.
So, currently all players (except for CHs) are limited to only one pet. That pet can be a 2500-3000 HAM creature (some BEs are able to experiment CL10 pets to that ham...and I think it is totally reasonable because they are expensive and you can have only one); OR a 5500 to 55000 ham faction pet.
Based on the above, I don't understand why you are saying the droid certification idea won't work. Lets say you put 2 new combat droids in the game, a battle droid (2500 ham; CL 20) and a droideka (5000 ham; CL30). If the droid cert system were to limit battle droids to players who had mastered at least one elite profession (and who could most definately buy a BE creature or 5500+ HAM faction pet); and limit droidekas to players who master 2+ elite professions, how is that unbalancing? Consider that droids are permadeath (not reusable tenks like creatures with vitality packs) and that the player can have ONLY ONE pet out at a time. Why is this unbalancing? Elite players ALREADY have powerful pet options beyond 1000 HAM pets.
This is what DE's want: A viable combat droid option that is not uber, but better than other pets available so that people buy droids. DEs want this droid to be useful enough for DEs to usethem to help them survive their harvester runs, but don't want it to tank Krayt Dragons with. Why is this so hard to do?
TH wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Assistant Community Relations Manager
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So, All of this has been for naught then.Good luck.
Someone else can make droids then.
I quit.
I'm new, both to the game and to DE. I agree with another noob who said...
"I want to be able to check my harvesters and have enough skill points after DE, Artisen and Merchant to have one basic Combat proffesion so I can defend myself and perform normal functions in game."
I like to make things. It's what I do in real life, and I enjoy it in the game. BUT, I would also appreciate the opportunity to adventure some. Not only that, but I can't really participate effectively in a key feature of the game, factions, because I'm so weak (due to having to master several non-combat areas just to be an effective DE) that an entertainer can almost sing me to death.I may soon be able to build droidekkas, but can't use one as a bodyguard? Please! If we're afraid combat droids would be too powerful, thus giving DE's unfair advantage in the markets or over other classes, then find a way to make the specialized combat droids expensive. Either requiring a tremendous amount of resources to condense into armour plating, a number of hard to find components built by other elite professions, or even RARE resources.
Thanks, Thunderheart, for listening to us. I'll trust you and your team to do justice to the DE profession.
O-Jen
ASHRID wrote:
There is no change of heart
Apparently the devs want a droid combat based profession and the DEs didnt want to be it - thus the devs _think_ we asked for a DH profession
The issue is actually 'should there be a droid combat profession at all?'
If the devs want to add continuity breaking combat droids (which admittedly lots of players want...and all for the wrong reasons) with capabilities beyond what CL10 is able to provide then something has to change, but DH is certainly not the way to go about it IMO!!!!!
Exactly.
Someone above quoted Holocron from months and months ago when he first mentioned a DH class in passing as a possibility.
It's clear this was the plan from the start, and the "What do you want?" smoke-screens, of which this threatens to be yet another of, were just to give us the illusion of being listened to as a community.
The only thing worse than not listening to us is pretending to listen to us when you have not intention of hearing what we say.
Audio
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
I believe that you're making another assumption here, Thunderheart.
Where did you get the idea that we want the new combat droids to be so powerful that they would require all the combat in the game to get harder?
What's wrong with this:
1) ALL characters can control a CL 8 combat droid.
2) Masters of base-level professions can control a CL 10 combat droid.
3) Masters of elite-level professions can control a CL 12 combat droid.
On top of that, add in combat modules that change the damage type of the droid in question. For example, create a module that, when installed in a combat droid, causes that droid's damage to be Stun damage instead of Energy damage.
If those numbers don't work, then change them. I do find it a bit hard to believe that CL 12 is too high for the Master of an Elite-level profession, but if you say so then fine. I would understand perfectly, however, if you said that CL 12 is too high for a completely new character... thus the need to require Master level.
This is a cert system. It most definitely WILL work. Get out of your box for a bit - we don't necessarily want what the Developers have already designed, so don't constrain us to what they have already done.
Marc_Deltram wrote:
DiLune wrote:
Okay, I don't understand here myself. Droid=Pet. Pet=Droid. The skins are different but the mechanics are the same.
Think so, huh? You got a pet that can store items? Or help you craft items out in the field? Perhaps you have a pet who can help medics heal better and/or faster? Or your pet can repair other pets. Which planet did you find this pet on? Does anyone else know?
- Okay then, you obviously don't understand combat. Are you talking about CL25 storage droids? Look out! I'll store you!
How can a cert system resolve the skill points a CH has to spend on the same CL pet as a droid I'm certed for at Master Pistoleer? What you are proposing will gut the CH profession because droids will be the always superior option. Do the math. How many skill points would a master pistoleer have to spend to use a CL25 pet? Now you're saying that certing him in a CL25 droid isn't unbalanced?
None ofus are saying that everyone should be able to handle a "DL 25" droid when they can otherwise only handle a CL 10 pet. NONE of us.
- I see. But that is what you are saying. You may not think so. You may think the droid cert system is great and pat yourself on the back. I have a Master Pistoleer/Master Squad Leader. His power is what it is right now. With your droid cert system it would increase exponentially. He could pull a CL 30 or so droid out of his pocket for no skill point expenditure. Unless it is a CL 30 storage droid I'd say I just got something for nothing.
Within the parameters of the game, how do you resolve getting to use over CL10 pet/droids? You have to spend skill points on it. The cert system is using already spent skill points. So, do DE's get droid handling? Then you can't sell your high level droids because the people that would buy them are the ones that use them. So Droid Handler is about the only option. Unless you can come up with a skill point expenditure, within the parameters of the game, that comes to an equitable resolution with CH.
Keep reading. Might want to sift through some of the other threads in the forum before asking this again.
I am not trying to be snotty here. I am just responding to your statements. This all has been thought out (with CH and other professions in mind) for a long, long time and has gone through many debates and discussions and refinements. We've presented our answers time and time again. They're there. They're sticked. All someone has to do is READ them.
I'm sorry. It has not been thought out with CH in mind. 67 skill points to use a CL 25 pet. (roughly 67.) Now you want my master pistoleer to get that advantage without having to spend the skill points? How is this well thought out? Pardon my snottiness, but when was the last time you picked up a gun and fought anything? A CL 25 pet/droid would be a HUGE advantage.
Oh and by the way....R2 units with laser beams duct taped to their heads is also not what we want...
DE's were asking for new combat droid chassis so that there weould be more combat droids in the game. They were not asking for current droids to be given guns that they never had in the movies, and for new droids to be implemented but only available to an elite class of CH-wannabees.
DE's want sales, and creating a Droid Handler does not help the situation.
Kav wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
no, there are way to make one work that would not create undue strain on combat balance. You just have to make sure they are not stackable into an "uber template" I have posted one alterintive in the other thread about drak's certs.
How many combat droids are we really talking about here? 3-6 maybe as many as 9, is that enough to base a whole new class on?
Droids should be as prevalent as swoopbikes, blasters, and aliens. it is a core aspect of Star Wars. To build any system that limits it to any one class would Rob us of our due. We All want droids.
There has to be a way to achive it.
Here ya go TH, another vision on Droid Certs for Everyone.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=53451
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work.
WHY!?!?!
See...
This is my point, TH. You come in here and say, "this won't work". However, you cannot explain why, with specifics and details.
What I'm hearing you say here is the Devs don't want to do the work involved to make the cert system work. That's not a "it's too hard" issue, that's a "we don't want to do the work to make droids function correctly in the game" issue.
I'm about one more post from you away from hitting the "Cancel" button, my man.
With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
The only players without a droid cert would likely be true crafter-only types. If that's the case, they won't have to worry about combat...they'd never do any.
Only those that wanted to do some combat would need to take a side-line combat profe...
Nevermind. I am not going to be able to explain this to you. You obviously are NOT our voice to the team and I am convinced that none of the Dev team are interested in helping us to shape the future of this profession in the direction that 90+% of the DEs know is needed. If they were, they'd be here helping us with this "very important thread".
So much for communication...
On a side note, I find it interesting (and very telling) that you have yet to apologize for either:
1) Lying outright to the playerbase
2) Aggregiously getting our desires so totally wrong, even in the face of what Drashk himself told you.
It's very clear to me now that you all don't listen. You have no interest in listening.
/bow
Respectfully,
Just thought I'd put this up again until it is answered (or I'm banned). I don't personally wish to see this dodged
TheWoody wrote:
... It's one thing to impliment a change no one wants. It's quite another to impliment it, lie to the general public by smearing our names across it as the reason, then lie to us again by claiming ignorance.
There's two arguments at stake here. The first is that the general population does not want this change. we can say that is something that can't be disproven and can't be more obvious.
The second argument is the personal insult made against all of us. As I said, he knew all the facts, but said it anyway. Here's the proof (Sorry GnomeAD):
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52500
Personally, I don't thinkthe community willbe happy till both issues are resolved. And it may take more than an apology this time Thunderheart, because of this post. Start coming up with ideas mate, because this is the perfect example of a politician class "Critical Failing"