Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Please help me understand your change of heart.
Not sure if this has been said before or not, but since a straight cert system wont work..how about a skill point based cert system?
Basically it will be a 'new profession', but would only be like, 1 tree, and 4 teirs. If you want to use very basic combat droids you spend the skill points for teir 1. You want better droids, then spend more skill points. The max CL of the best driods would be maybe CL 25 or so. This would satisfy the DE who want to be able to sell driods to any profession not just a CH clone, and would solve the problem of needing to spend skill points to use driod without introducing a complete stand alone DH profession.
I don't think you can get away with a whole new profession just to use droids. what would all the skill trees do? But if you create a single tree, that would cost, maybe a total of25 to 35 skill points, then you'd have people who would sacrifice skill points in other professions to use droids. Have pre-req's too. since you'd expect combat droids to be used by the combat professions, have the first teir of this new skill tree require novice pistoleer, novice carbineer, novice rifleman, novice commando, novice TKA, or any of the other novice combat professions.
None combat specific droids, such as present day droids with combat madules, would still be CL 10 or less and could be used by anyone.
Would this satisfy the DE's and TH?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
No one is talking about powerful droids. We are not talking CL70 droids, or even CL50 droids.
I just had an epiphany and this brought it to mind. WE aren't talking about DL50 droids. But THEY (being SOE) ARE! Thunderhart said it himself in his post to Drashk--THEY WANT DROIDEKAS! And to THEM, that is a DL50 DROID! Now...how do we hand out this DL50 00ber droid? And therein lies the problem: Can't get there from here.
Hey guys. Take a deep breath and three steps back. Daker said it here. Someone else said it somewhere else, it's been said a lot of times. WE DON'T NEED OR WANT A DROID THAT CAN SOLO A KIMO OR A KRAYT! I personally would be happy with a droid that could solo a Humbaba (and WIN). Unimaginitive? Yes. Not uber enough? Probably not for some. But it is clear that whatever the level we are looking for, we are not looking for a RANCOR/GRAUL sized, KRAYT-powered droid. If the problem is one of that is what SOE wants but can't figure out how to get it to us, then stop right there and set YOUR sights lower. We have.
And I will also restate what Droid_Engineer_Rho and others have said in that we'd also be happy if we had other non-combat droids to build and sell. There are SOOOOOOOO many possibilities here that you could make a HUGE number of us REALLY happy REALLY quickly by giving us some new NON-COMBAT options. Clearly the whole combat thing is just not going to be resolved quickly. So bail on that entirely and focus on the non-combat options. Make us happy that way. We'll love you again. Promise!
Marc_Deltram wrote:
Just out of curiosity: Why? Based on their past machinations, I don't think it's a stretch to believe they said that.
AudioOrgana wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they have said "no droid cert system in any way shape or form".
The reason I asked is because how TH said it.
It's like his initial response to the camp thing - "camps are required to call pets because of exploits!" he said.
We asked him, which exploits?
And finally Holocron came and said we were right - and in the publish after next the change is going in.
What TH said here seemed like the "because of exploits!" excuse. It just doesn't make sense.
He said, "With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play," which is just as flimsy as the camp reasoning.
The answer is ignoring what an equalizer droids could be. His reason is like saying, "We can't give anything to anyone because it makes things harder for the noobs."
In many of the proposed certifications that are sprinkled throughout all professions, a Maste Chef gets a fighting chance with the same droid as a Master Rifleman.
I don't see how that is any different than weapons certifications as they are now. Only these are a lot EASIER to balance. Unlike weapons certs, in which the elite weapons are in a constant flux of balance (is a T21 rifle as powerful as a DX2 pistol?), droid certs would be equally available to characters of a certain level.
The reason I questioned TH is because I would like to know if this is another of his assumptions.
So let me rephrase - "I find it hard to believe that the Dev team said 'no certifications in any way, shape, or form at all, and for those reasons."
Audio
Because it sounds like THE only way we will get our combat droids will be to impliment this "Droid Handler" - it would then, reason that this SHOULD be off of Droid Engineer Master - perhaps a single tree for certification:
Master Droid Eng, then ONE 4-tier tree with levels of droid combat certification.
(STILL, not in-support of, but what choice would we really have - it sounds like none.)
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
Or perhaps you could take this as an indication of what the DE community wants, and give us some feedback rather than a brick wall.
Have you asked if a more staggered Cert system with Skillpoint costs would be acceptable?
Have you made a suggestion on ways that this sort of thing could be met half way?
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Assistant Community Relations Manager
Really? You mean DE product would be actually needed? Now there is a revolutionary idea. Like guns and so on do you mean? You don't think the game is difficult enough for most people already that a mid range Droid should be worth aiming for?
Well if you are so absolutely stuck with that viewpoint that you cant be convinced otherwise (and dont tell me you have even had time to think about it properly yet) let economics be the ruling factor. Just so long as we can sell them and use them..the other argument says that if everyone can have them balance is maintained.
Thats your (the devs) job..to work it out, but there is no need for DH thats a certainty.
TheWoody wrote:
Just thought I'd put this up again until it is answered (or I'm banned). I don't personally wish to see this dodged
TheWoody wrote:
... It's one thing to impliment a change no one wants. It's quite another to impliment it, lie to the general public by smearing our names across it as the reason, then lie to us again by claiming ignorance.
There's two arguments at stake here. The first is that the general population does not want this change. we can say that is something that can't be disproven and can't be more obvious.
The second argument is the personal insult made against all of us. As I said, he knew all the facts, but said it anyway. Here's the proof (Sorry GnomeAD):
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52500
Personally, I don't thinkthe community willbe happy till both issues are resolved. And it may take more than an apology this time Thunderheart, because of this post. Start coming up with ideas mate, because this is the perfect example of a politician class "Critical Failing"
/support TheWoody
And i will add that :
now you have began to talk about what is going on describe exactly what you were thinking of about the DH we did not even know that ! the tree , the requirement , the abilities ...?
TH, I dont think my fellow DE's even know what they want. They are just mad to be mad. A DH Profession is the ONLY thing that makes sense. I have asked for Valid reasons why a DH Profession hurts or ruins DE and no one gave me a good reason. These are the top 3 answers I got from them.
1. They want to be able to build and use their Heavy Combat Droids (Well then that makes them an Uber Profession, the power to build, use and sell droids would no doubt in my mind make everyone flock to DE, it would be a huge unblance)
2. They want to build droids everyone can use (Well, then you can kiss the fantasyof Destroyer Droids away, no way will the Devs give lvl 50 Combat Droids to a Novice Marksman)
3. A Cert system that allows elite classes to use combat droids (So not only is a Pistoleer a great fighter, hes a Droid Handler too for free! So DE's arewilling tobuild a Pistoleer only droid, but a DH only droid is out of the question....very strange)
Thats about it TH, go ahead and read my post called "Please explain to me how Droid Handler is a bad thing" you should get alot of your answers there. And yes, im a DE.
I believe Drashk's system is overly complex (would have been nice if he'd shown it to us first before proposing it to you). I'd favour a much more simple system which I've posted elsewhere:
Novice Marskman/Brawler: No combat cert.
Master Marksman/Brawler: Mid-level combat droid
Novice elite combat profession: Mid-level combat droid
Master combat profession: High-level combat droid
For some definition of low/mid/high level droid that suits the game balance.
Run the droid certs based on the weapon equipped at the time, just like you are making the same changes to the various defensive bonuses in this next round of combat fixes. Also note that this proposal can't be broken. It only says you have the ability to control one droid of the appropriate type. There is no way to stack them or do anything else, just like weapon certs. All it says is you can control one, and one only.
Thunderheart wrote:
Droid Certs wont work because there are so many combat class combinations that some one will inevitably find an uber-combo with a powerful droid.
Every time this comes up, I make a statement to that effect. No one wants to hear it, and it's always argued against, 1-starred, whatever (as I'm sure this will be as well). People either don't recognize, don't believe or don't care about the balance implications of attaching droid certifications to existing professions. Perhaps you can elaborate further on them so that people can understand why what they keep asking for just isn't possible without breaking the game.
I don't think you're really seeing a change of heart in the community. What I think is happening is that those who are opposed to the DH idea are becoming increasingly vocal as it gets closer to reality, not necessarily increasing in number. Meanwhile, those in favor don't post because (IMO):
- People are more likely to post when they oppose something,
- Those in favor are conceding, because they have not been heard or acknowledged by the vocal anti-DH camp or are just plain exasperated, or
- They're in game, enjoying their play time.
This last one is important, because we can't forget that the forums themselves represent a vocal minority of the player community. The metrics Q has released in the past would lead us to believe there are more than three thousand DEs in-game, yet 300 "voted". What about the silent majority, who are much less likely to be here because they have no real complaints with the way things are going?
I really, really, really (ad infinitium) think you guys are doing the right thing with DH. The only other combat pet profession, the CH, has a dependancy on a crafting class, the BEs (especially now with the cloning system). You're proposing a mirror of that system, which is the right, just and balanced thing to do. Any other proposal either imbalances combat classes or turns non-combat classes into combat classes.
This is one of those rare occasions where you guys as a development team have to make the right decision for the game, independent of the community's stated desires. There are other professions to participate in for those who cannot stomach the outcome. And in the worst case, there are other games for those people. But you can't break the many to please the few, and yet that's what you're being asked to do.
DiLune wrote:
...
This is besides the point of this thread, and the numbers I used were just arbitrary. On my planet, they call it an EXAMPLE. Goombye.
AudioOrgana wrote:
The reason I asked is because how TH said it.
It's like his initial response to the camp thing - "camps are required to call pets because of exploits!" he said.
We asked him, which exploits?
And finally Holocron came and said we were right - and in the publish after next the change is going in.
What TH said here seemed like the "because of exploits!" excuse. It just doesn't make sense.
He said, "With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play," which is just as flimsy as the camp reasoning.
The answer is ignoring what an equalizer droids could be. His reason is like saying, "We can't give anything to anyone because it makes things harder for the noobs."
In many of the proposed certifications that are sprinkled throughout all professions, a Maste Chef gets a fighting chance with the same droid as a Master Rifleman.
I don't see how that is any different than weapons certifications as they are now. Only these are a lot EASIER to balance. Unlike weapons certs, in which the elite weapons are in a constant flux of balance (is a T21 rifle as powerful as a DX2 pistol?), droid certs would be equally available to characters of a certain level.
The reason I questioned TH is because I would like to know if this is another of his assumptions.
So let me rephrase - "I find it hard to believe that the Dev team said 'no certifications in any way, shape, or form at all, and for those reasons."
Audio
Wowsa!
Now that you mention it, Audio, I do see a pattern.
Looks like they're onto you, Thunderheart.
GamerProX wrote:
TH, I dont think my fellow DE's even know what they want. They are just mad to be mad. A DH Profession is the ONLY thing that makes sense. I have asked for Valid reasons why a DH Profession hurts or ruins DE and no one gave me a good reason. These are the top 3 answers I got from them.
1. They want to be able to build and use their Heavy Combat Droids (Well then that makes them an Uber Profession, the power to build, use and sell droids would no doubt in my mind make everyone flock to DE, it would be a huge unblance)
Unless A cert system was implemented to allow anyone to use the droids if they had the requisite levels
2. They want to build droids everyone can use (Well, then you can kiss the fantasyof Destroyer Droids away, no way will the Devs give lvl 50 Combat Droids to a Novice Marksman)
Read the Cert System page, it is setting up things so thing like a novice Marksman CAN'T get a high level droid
3. A Cert system that allows elite classes to use combat droids (So not only is a Pistoleer a great fighter, hes a Droid Handler too for free! So DE's arewilling tobuild a Pistoleer only droid, but a DH only droid is out of the question....very strange)
Again read the Cert system page, it's based on a CH style control level, no droids specificly for one class
Thats about it TH, go ahead and read my post called "Please explain to me how Droid Handler is a bad thing" you should get alot of your answers there. And yes, im a DE.
It's usually considered common courtosy to read something before you attempt to condemn it, rather than base your entire opinion on a few knee jerk reactions