Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Hybrid DE Discussion: Melee Balance
DigitalOne wrote:
As it stands a big solid Absolutemente no! to this proposal.
Bravo! Boy, you showed us! We've just spent the last month discussing and modifying all aspects of this proposal with 40+ pages of discussion and votes in 5 different threads. You just spent two minutes to say "no". That's cool. It unfortunate that you have not bothered to read what we've discussed since many of your issues have been raised and addressed several times. You've taken this thread off-topic from the narrow discussion the melee issues in the plan to a wide-ranging ego-catering shotgun-style discussion of any obstacle you can put in front of a plan that 87% of the community supports and, quite frankly, is the only plan with any chance of bring us new combat droids. Bravo!
Tell you what, though. I'll give throw down two challenges and see how you respond. Perhaps you can redeem yourself and become a builder rather than a destroyer.
Challenge one: READ all of the posts on the various threads, particularly the main discussion thread. THEN, post your subsantive comments in light of what is discussed. Make it all the way through before you reply because many issues raised early on are addressed later on. Because you have not read all the posts -- its obvious -- you are acting in an information void. Most reasonable people prefer to make informed decisions.
Challenge two: If after meeting challenge one you still disagree, come up with your own plan for intruducing cool new combat droids into the game that 1) meets all the requirements that the devs have set forth and 2) has not already been rejected by the DE community.
As it stands now, you have nothing to offer. Why don't you join us in CONSTRUCTIVELY making this plan better, or if not, come up with your own plan that is reaslistically feasable? We're not hear to cater to every half-baked thought that you spew that has already addressed three times before. We're here to constructively improve this plan with the hopes that SWG can finally have some real player-made and player-controled driods. We're trying to BUILD SOMETHING here. Why don't you join us with suggestions, rather than throw rocks and cry that the sky is gonna fall?
Sodan, he's entitled to his opinion, just like you're entitled to your overly zealous and rosy opinion. It only hurts your cause when you stoop to sarcastically denigrating others for disagreeing with you.
He doesn't like your plan. Deal with it. He doesn't have to be able to post a better alternative in order to not like a proposed solution - sometimes bad is bad.
Kollos wrote:
Sodan, he's entitled to his opinion, just like you're entitled to your overly zealous and rosy opinion. It only hurts your cause when you stoop to sarcastically denigrating others for disagreeing with you.
He doesn't like your plan. Deal with it. He doesn't have to be able to post a better alternative in order to not like a proposed solution - sometimes bad is bad.
Kollos, I respect you for coming up with your own plan when you disagreed with ours. He has not. He can either stick to his guns or pick up a shovel like the rest of us or hit the drawing board on his own. The first option sucks in my book; it adds nothing. I think you're wrong that he doesn't have to post a better plan. We have no other options right now.
At a minumum, all this discussion is off-topic for this thread.
Gyros wrote:
I see your points here Javelin... I really do, but would it be so bad for the majority of players who do not want to go into crafting professions to be BH's????
My call on this is let them be BH's... I honestly think you will see more players staying in or dabbling in the CH profession them spending thier skill points to be a BH... The tough call here IMHO is CH's going for DE 0040... That would be a lot of Creature power, unless they were capped to CL70 total between Droids and Creatures...
I regurards to BH's dependancy for combat Droids.... What professions wouldn't be dependant upon us the MDE's??? I know that most of my Droid business is driven by the fact that my customers know that They and I both want the same thing in droids...Quality, Utility, Star Wars Feel, and FUN...
And the melee/Ranged balance part (IMHO) is covered by DiLunes post as quoted by Sodan on page 3...
DiLune wrote:
I think the combat droid certs should be included in all novice combat elite boxes (including SL, Commando and BH.) That solves your problem of melee vs range. It doesn't actually add any power in particular to any of those professions. Why? You cert the ability to use the CL10-13 basic combat droid there. (people could already have a CL10 pet at this point.) So you haven't added any power to the professions unless theythen go up the DE 0040 line to get higher CL droids.
Many combat elite already have scout SP spent for harvesting and movement mods. It doesn't take that much more over what they already spent to go up into CH and pick up some pet power. Crossing into artisan does not lend itself to combat capabilities so that is where a combat modeled player's "dead" SP would be hanging. (the tradeoff checkers analogy.)
The prof that suffers though is the BH because for him to cross into DE to get droid levels is almost crippling under this model. (By that I mean the Proposed Droid Hybrid in general, not my particular proposal.)
(Had to addanother item. Many many combat people spend 9 SP to get range support 3 anyway for warningshot. They are really only giving up 5 SP to get to range support 4 if that is a requirement.)
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Javelin I would personally like to thank you for your Comments and Ideas... If the rest of the DE community could all discuss these tough issues that benefit us all... We would all win out in the end...
Oh, I also wanted to mention that I put up a thread on the BH forum explaining the situation and how BH's would be left out due to the skill point requirement....
The response I got was: "Thanks for thinking of us, but we don't need combat droid partners." ...so I feel it's fair to say they don't object to the intensive skill point requirement needed in a crafting profession.
Yea, i understand a ton of my requests were alittle out there, but its my pure and unalerable belief that they must be implemented in order for this proposal to function properly. Theres Feasibilty, which is one thing, but feasibility alone isnt a fix. We want to opperate well, and smoothly, and not just half assed.
We're all desperate, very desperate, but its essentail we dont let our desperation cloud our judgement, and allow us to jump on board the first favorable plan. Our class as it stands is proof of what happens when you dont think things through.
The problems i find with thisproposal are substantial, and bother me waaay to much for me to smile and nod at this proposal. If your fine with it go ahead. We have a chance to influence and re-define the part of the game here, we're not going to get attention again.
Additions like the ones i made up there might not work as i stated them, but theres probably some way to have them implemented in an acceptable fashon. In order to have this proposal work as it should. Especialy the part of re-issueing the schematics.
As it stands a big solid Absolutemente no! to this proposal.
DigitalOne wrote:
I havent been completely distructive, ive come up with some suggestions up there. Boils down to two simple things that should be added in clause, re-distribution of subcomponent schematics, and the reconsideration of droid decay in some form or another. Thats it, thats all i want to see. Im not being unreasonable.
Now you're talking. Constructive suggestions for how to improve the plan are very helpful. Raising concerns and then addressing them through further suggestions is even more helpful. I'd like for YOU to address some of the concerns you have raised. How can we modify the plan to address them? Step off the arm-chair critic couch and slide on to the draftsman's bench with the rest of us. Here's a pencil with an eraser.
As mentioned above, your first suggestion is ALREADY in the plan. I appreciate you suggesting it, but did you not see read the plan to see that it was there? On the other hand, you did mention that some do the droid stim sub-components are in Novice DE and that they should be moved. That is helpful, constructive suggestion and worthy of further investigation. We want combat dabblersto be completely dependent upon us for components and droids so we have an expanded market.
Droid decay is also already in the game in the form of "condition". Droid condition goes down as a droid incapped, once condition reaches 75% a droids stats are lowered. Were you not aware of this fact? Or are you aware of it but want something more? If so pls suggest away.
As for your earlier concerns about competition, I dismiss those as anti-competitive and exclusiveof others.If someone grinds to 0040 DE and thendecides they love the profession -- great! More MDEs woohoo! If you ever made a combat template, you know that someone who is serious about kicking @ss is not gonna waste any more points than they need to. On my server, DEs SHARE resource waypoints with each other. We cooperate. I'm happy that O-Jen will be a master DE soon and I've thrown her a few business bones to be cool. I'm not gonna kick back and try to be the only DE on the server and b*itch when there are new DEs.
Finally, remember the point of this thread: Not how can we address DigitalOne's concerns, not gee utility droids this or that, but how can we modify the plan or should we modify to address the concerns of melee-balance. It kind of gets me that we had this cool thread going where even correspondents from other forums and professions were gracious enough to add their thoughts and critiques, then suddently it's an off-topic objections of a single conceintious objector thread.
You have my apologies for being pissed off here. At the same time, you should think carefully before hijacking a perfectly good thread when there are other more appropriate threads for you to use for your broader concerns. The appropriate response to this reply is more suggestions for how to improve the plan, or a plan of your ownthat rocks the house in a new thread.
To be clear, I am not asking you to roll over and play dumb. I am asking you join with us in constructing a good plan or suggest a solution of your own.
Briefly off topic: We must join with him, we must join with Sauron! Why do I always feel like saying that?
JavelinCatcher wrote:
Gettting back to the discussion topic...
Gyros wrote:
I see your points here Javelin... I really do, but would it be so bad for the majority of players who do not want to go into crafting professions to be BH's????
My call on this is let them be BH's... I honestly think you will see more players staying in or dabbling in the CH profession them spending thier skill points to be a BH... The tough call here IMHO is CH's going for DE 0040... That would be a lot of Creature power, unless they were capped to CL70 total between Droids and Creatures...
I regurards to BH's dependancy for combat Droids.... What professions wouldn't be dependant upon us the MDE's??? I know that most of my Droid business is driven by the fact that my customers know that They and I both want the same thing in droids...Quality, Utility, Star Wars Feel, and FUN...
And the melee/Ranged balance part (IMHO) is covered by DiLunes post as quoted by Sodan on page 3...
DiLune wrote:
I think the combat droid certs should be included in all novice combat elite boxes (including SL, Commando and BH.) That solves your problem of melee vs range. It doesn't actually add any power in particular to any of those professions. Why? You cert the ability to use the CL10-13 basic combat droid there. (people could already have a CL10 pet at this point.) So you haven't added any power to the professions unless theythen go up the DE 0040 line to get higher CL droids.
Many combat elite already have scout SP spent for harvesting and movement mods. It doesn't take that much more over what they already spent to go up into CH and pick up some pet power. Crossing into artisan does not lend itself to combat capabilities so that is where a combat modeled player's "dead" SP would be hanging. (the tradeoff checkers analogy.)
The prof that suffers though is the BH because for him to cross into DE to get droid levels is almost crippling under this model. (By that I mean the Proposed Droid Hybrid in general, not my particular proposal.)
(Had to addanother item. Many many combat people spend 9 SP to get range support 3 anyway for warningshot. They are really only giving up 5 SP to get to range support 4 if that is a requirement.)
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Javelin I would personally like to thank you for your Comments and Ideas... If the rest of the DE community could all discuss these tough issues that benefit us all... We would all win out in the end...
First of all, thanks! The problem with DiLune's suggestion is that it gives ALL professions added strength. Therefore, the content of the game must be increased to assume that everyone has one (that was TH's argument). The key idea behind the proposal (that probably makes the dev's consider it) is that it is not inherent with any combat profession, and a combat profession must spend skill points elsewhere to get the use of combat droids. If we gave each novice elite combat profession the use of combat droids, that's the same thing as the cert argument...which was shot down by the devs.
The issue at hand is how to make it "fair" for each combat profession to gain access to them. Putting a modifier at Range Support 4 gives a advantage to ranged weapon users over Melee users because of the 15 extra skill points for Marksmen.
From what I can tell, the sentiment is "So what?" ...and I'm starting to lean that direction myself as we have few other options. Speaking as a Smuggler/DE, who has 29 skill points tied up in Brawler that I never use...I say that you have to make decisions like this when you build your character.
Again Javelin I see your point! My take on this proposal was that getting the +1 Combat Droid in the elite skills would only "unlock" the possible use of combat droidsstill fixed at CL13 (which we have now) so no real change... But would also be a trigger to allow player who did go DE 0040 to increase that CL above 13... There by if a player didn't have the +1 combat Droid and did have DE0040 they would still be restricted to CL 13.... I hope I am explaining myself here.. I know that from time to time I get cloudy...
So...
Elite Combat Novice= +1 Combat Droid use (Not to be confused with the use of 2 droids!!!!)
DE 0040 = Combat droid Levels bonus (possible multiple droid bonus...)
Elite combat Novice alone = +1 combat droid use (still restricted to 1 CL13 Droid)
DE 0040 Alone = No additional CL level on droid or player is maxed to CL of 14 (hence 1 utility droid and one combat droid)
BH would get +1 Combat droid use in Investigation 1 of their skill along with Combat droid level bonus at say Investigation 4
(Providing BH's Droid CL level would only be = to 25 TOTAL and making the IG Droid CL25)
This would allow the BH to use 1 CL13 Droid to assist them Through Investigation Tree while limiting them overall at Investigation 4 to either 1 CL13 and 1utility droid
to repair it OR 1 IG Droid ALONE...
(so R3 Combat CL 13 and power Droid CL 1 for repair) or (1 IG Droid CL25 and NO utility Droid to repair it)
This model would be fair and equitable for all Brawler and Ranged Combat professions... And not grant them any new skills or increased Combat droid use unless the skill points were spent to acieve DE 0040... This is of course the execption for BH's who would only gain Higher level combat droid at Investigation 4....
This would also allow for the DE's who would like to remain "Crafters" to do so because in order to "unlock" the use of Combat droids above CL13DE's would have to Spend Skill points toward an elite combat profession... Which with a properly managed Toon (character) A DE could hold MA,DE, novice Elite combat skill...
Now IMHO SL... The Squad Leader profession is meant to grant the ability to "LEAD" a squad... Not have their own squad to lead!!!! I feel that the SL profession would be ruined by giving them their own squad of combat droids... The whole purpose of the profession is to lead a group of player characters... not Own their own group of combat droids...They also would have to expend the points for Novice Elite Combat Skill & DE 0040 (How many Military Generals or even Staff Level Officers have their own squad in their inventory???)
Comments and suggestions are WELCOME... but no FLAMING please
THANK YOU. Interesting point about your post in the BH threads, Javelin.
JavelinCatcher wrote:
Gettting back to the discussion topic...
slaier0702 wrote:
It seems as though there is a working template for submission to SOE. Obvioulsy there are individual detractors or people have have some disagreements, as there should be. However by reading the threads there is significant movement behind the concept and it should be submitted.
Very much agreed. The 87% of people who have voted in favor of the plan have voted their agreement to the concept generally. The particulars are up to the devs.
What I gather from the relevant posts made on this thread is that there is a concern that melee types are left out in the cold by this plan. Counter to that is the feeling by some that some sacrifice/uniqueness is an important part of the plan. Down the middle of the road is the perspective that acknowledges the different perspectives and punts it to the devs, say ing "we agree that this plan should be implemented, here are the concerns people raised and tangible options for you to elect and modify."