Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: No combat droids, please
Well, we are obviously a crafting profession. We shouldn't be a combat profession.
This being said, I don't want to see a multitude of combat droids coming out that
are DE only. I would like to see maybe two more battle droid models that everyone
can use.
They don't have to be uber-tough. Maybe just a little stronger than the probot. I'm
realisitc about the balance necessary. I don't like there being huge creatures
available to CH's that allow for solo tanking of almost everything.
I do, in fact, like the idea of there being a Master level only combat droid.
Possibly a droideka. My rational is this:
Something as complex as a droideka would be impossible for a non-DE to maintain.
I would assume they would need constant upkeep.
Now, a DE could easily keep one in good running order if it were his/hers.
Plus, it would be a nice perk for attaining master.
Most players will agree that most of the Master level rewards are a little weak.
The most important things are that different droids have specific uses, and that
droid functionality is expanded.
Senor
You must be joking right? what, are you the'only' one in this game? Please try and think outside of your own profession. If DEs get the advantage of being able to pull out great droids like Droidekas at master, you wont have to worry about 'non-DEs', because there wont be any left! they will all be DEs! lol. *takes deep breath* Seriously, its starwars, who doesnt want a wicked droid? I will dump my profession tomorrow if DEs become anything like CHs. And that will flood the market and the real DE crafters will soon fade away.
Niklut wrote:
*Notes that most ofthe "crafters only" thoughts come from NON-DE's*
TH, when deciding things for our class please try to take most of it from those that are actually in our class.
The call for a new class is interesting... I think it would solve most of the problems.
You know this post does bring up good points actually.....I got the impression that combat droids were also highly illigal thats why IG-88 and his brothers were such a big deal.
Course doesnt mean you cant have them just cant truck around town with them.....
I posted on another thread my visions for droids and I think it goes along with the origional posters ideas as well. Such as a droid to enhance Creature harvesting or to throw traps if you are a ranger/scout. A droid that can set up camps better than youre skills allow. A droid bartender for chefs that they can stick thier goods on then it acts like the npc bartenders but gives the money to the chef that owns the droid.
Just a few ideas to throw on the table.
If all our combat droids are usable by anyone without restriction, then all our combat droids will have to be too weak to bother. This is EXACTLY the sort of issue that got us into the situation we currently have with probots. If we're going to help come up with a useful solution, we must be able to compromise between what makes sense in your imagination of this universe and what is required to maintain a balanced game.
Combat droids with no restrictions on use by anyone cannot exist in a useful form in this game. Either they vastly overpower the low end, or they are nerfed into uselessness for everyone else.
Combat droids which can be used ONLY by DEs don't solve the problems we have with the profession. They just change it to a different kind of profession altogether.
No combat droids at all just maintains our status as a marginalized class, since combat is central to the game.
The ONLY way to fix this is to compromise between these extremes, and that means that all of us are probably going to have to accept a slightly less than perfect solution from our individual perspectives.
For me, the idea of giving DEs the same droid certs that combat professions receive IS a compromise. If I were expressing my sensibilities exclusively, I'd agree with the folks who say DEs should not necessarily be certified to use combat droids just by virtue of having made them. But many DEs are absolutely insistent on being able to use the droids. I don't think it does any significant harm to let them. Somebody who is just a DE, and relies on his droid exclusively for combat, will be substantially weaker than a player with a combat profession AND a combat droid. Most DEs who want combat will thus already have a few points in a combat profession. They'd be able to use the droids they make anyway, for the most part. Therefore I don't see it as a really substantial concession to give those players the DE-based certs they're asking for. I don't think it will change the overall balance in a significant way.
Grimjakk wrote:
Betatoxin wrote:
Grimjakk wrote:We can't have CH-competitive general use combat droids without recreating the very problem that is just being solved with the CH "dabblers"...
Hogwash.
I disagree... the min-maxers will shift points to where ever they get the most bang for the buck. Certain combinations of skill-lines will always give benefits that outweigh the investments. Add a CH-level pet in there basically for free, and all we'll have done is free up the 29 points people had invested in the CH tree.I don't think that's even arguable.
How exactly is it for free? Did you read my post? Can you actually respong to anything specific? I was pretty specific in how to address this exact issue. Let me try again.
Any combat droids certified for use at any level should be comensurate with the effort and risk involved in getting that level. This creates balance. By then tying the drids to master level you eliminate damblers. Min maxers as you call them are irrelevant. The purpose here is to raise everyone equally, and a good certification system and a broadly distributed selection of droids can accomplish that, and help the DE profession along the way.
A master combat profession gets you droid X. That droid power combined with the power of your combat profession gives you some total power.
Droid X + Profession Y = Total Power
As long as droid X is the same it will not change the equation since in any equation comparing two professions the droids cancel out.
Lets say that we accept the argument that BH, requiring more total skill points and effort to accomplish than pistoleer is supposed to be more powerful.
So we say
Master Pistoleer Power < Master Bounty Hunter Power
Ok?
So now we add a droid of some power, how much is not relevant. This droid is only available once you have achieved master of a combat profession.
Master Droid + Master Pistoleer Power < Master Droid + Master Bounty Hunter Power
You see the droid cancels out. Even if the droid is CL1000 the master bounty hunter is still more powerful than the pistoleer. So to get the full power of the Droid + Combat combo you have to combine it with the most powerful combat profession which is also the highest risk.
The imbalance you speak of with CH was caused by the imbalance of the CH tree and the 4/4/0/0 problem. There is no such problem here, both pistoleer and BH need to get master to even get the top end droid, there is no dabbling. Further once they get their droid the original balance of power based on the underlying skill points used remains since the droids they have access to are identical for all master combat professions.
Now lets look at novice vs master as per my certification system.
Novice pistoleer < Master pistoleer
Novice combat droid < Master Combat Droid
and now with the droids
Novice combat droid + Novice Pistoleer < Master Combat Droid + Master Pistoleer
The equations stay the same again there is balance because the droid does not make the novice more powerful than what the master can be. There is no benefit to dabble in one combat tree vs the other, in fact master a combat tree is a lot more valuable because that is the only way you get access to the top droid.
By distributing droid power evenly across professions you get balance because the droids do not effect inter profession balance at all, they all cancel out. By limiting the overall power of classes of droids for different classes of professions (crafting vs combat) you balance high risk professions with low risk professions. You never get a pistoleer with a droid that can trump BH because BH can get the same droid and since they are more powerful to begin with the balance equation stays the same.
The only real looser here if you can call a simple "status" change loosing is MCH who looses their monopoly on uber PvE. Being a CH going to MCH I have no problem with that at all. CH has plenty of interest for me regardless of its relative uberness, which is why i also have carbine and not the much preferred pistol.
You are saying that giving everyone droids with a cert system destroys balance. I am saying that only by giving everyone droids, with certain restrictions as appropriate the droids will have 0 net effect in inter profession balance. Oh and giving combat droids to DE only? That is the most incredibly unbalanced approach of all, but I already posted on that.
The only other option is not to have combat droids at all and if you are in that camp who does not want any DE made combat droids, well on that we will just have to agree to disagree.
Master Droid < Any Combat Profession + Master Droid
I'm just saying that giving DEs the ability to use the combat droids they make will satisfy a very vocal and persistent group, and won't make that much difference. The DEs will still have to have some combat skills of their own to be competitive, and whatever you may think based on your experiences grinding out Master Architects, grinding Master DE is not a shortcut to anything in the game.
TH just a word....
Do not assume that because they are the loudest that all DEs want to be pure crafters, there are a great many of us who want to use our combat droids and would like to have a unique MDE only droid, even if it isn't uber.
Unlike some, we don't kick an scream and imply or outright say we speak for everyone or most everyone.
Droid-Creator wrote:TH just a word....
Do not assume that because they are the loudest that all DEs want to be pure crafters, there are a great many of us who want to use our combat droids and would like to have a unique MDE only droid, even if it isn't uber.
Unlike some, we don't kick an scream and imply or outright say we speak for everyone or most everyone.
to be fair to both sides, plenty of kicking and screaming has/will go on.
Quote:
yeah, but wouldnt you folks LIKE to have a neat aspect to the class?
Depends on what you call neat...
Giving DEs DE-only droids = not giving them to others.
Some of us think the "neat" aspect of DE is giving other players a really cool item that they like and act really excited about. Nothing makes me feel more fulfilled than that.
I look forward to the day someone asks me for a droid, I ask them what class they are, they say artisan, and I get to tell them I can make a really cool droid to help them service their harvesters, and they go crazy at the excitement of that concept. THAT is neat.
Others may disagree and think that "neat" is laying waste to chubas in missions.
I think that DE should be kept to it's original, and overriding purpose...to provide useful, cools droids that BOTH others AND ourselves. Anyone who feels differently has 158 skill points to take up chuba killing skills... 
Grimjakk wrote:
Betatoxin wrote:
Grimjakk wrote:We can't have CH-competitive general use combat droids without recreating the very problem that is just being solved with the CH "dabblers"...
Hogwash.
I disagree... the min-maxers will shift points to where ever they get the most bang for the buck. Certain combinations of skill-lines will always give benefits that outweigh the investments. Add a CH-level pet in there basically for free, and all we'll have done is free up the 29 points people had invested in the CH tree.I don't think that's even arguable.
Did you check out the numbers?
8.66% Novice Creature Handler
6.76% Novice Pistoleer
2.58% Novice Bounty Hunter
Actually it is very arguable. Novice CH has pistoleer beat by a huge margin. This is going to get worse once the CH changes go in as more people spend the points to get at least CL 15 or 30 pets. I want to see that 29 points freed up. I want to see the CH 8%+ to drop to 1% or 2%. I want to see all the combat profession equally represented, I want balance, or at least people to feel they are not at a huge disadvantage, while at the same time not gutting professions that work to make them as useless as professions that do not work.
Further I want to avoid the deluge of Novice CH the game is going to be hit with when the CH changes go in. Droids are a big part of making CH a lot less desirable without nerfing it into oblivion. That and I never said free. Master in a profession is not free and a master in a combat profession is a fair amount of work and getting harder all the time.
Part of this change to DE and the combat droids is about reducing the numbers of Pets in the game and replacing them with useful droids. To make SWG more star warsy. The fact that is makes the DE profession a lot better by giving them new products to me is a great side effect, not being a DE myself I am more interested in the feel of the game and the options I have as a DE customer.
Will there be room for CH in the game with broad access to combat capable droids? Of course, as long as pets can do things that droids cannot do and vice versa we will have diversity and people will be CH not because it is mandatory, but because it is enjoyable and balanced with other professions. People will feel they have a choice which I do not think they do now.
We need combat droids and we need them for everyone with caveats to prevent some known problems.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Quote:
yeah, but wouldnt you folks LIKE to have a neat aspect to the class?
Depends on what you call neat...
Giving DEs DE-only droids = not giving them to others.
Some of us think the "neat" aspect of DE is giving other players a really cool item that they like and act really excited about. Nothing makes me feel more fulfilled than that.
I look forward to the day someone asks me for a droid, I ask them what class they are, they say artisan, and I get to tell them I can make a really cool droid to help them service their harvesters, and they go crazy at the excitement of that concept. THAT is neat.
Others may disagree and think that "neat" is laying waste to chubas in missions.
I think that DE should be kept to it's original, and overriding purpose...to provide useful, cools droids that BOTH others AND ourselves. Anyone who feels differently has 158 skill points to take up chuba killing skills...
I agree. The "neat" aspect of the class would be our ability to make something for other players that only we can make.
As for other "neat" aspects of the DE...we and our droids got left out of the requirements for taking over faction bases. That was a slap in the face. But it's pretty "neat" that Bio-Engineers have a purpose there.
Kitsunetsuki wrote:
Therefore I don't see it as a really substantial concession to give those players the DE-based certs they're asking for. I don't think it will change the overall balance in a significant way.
Unfortunately it is a hugely unbalanced concession for the simple reason that DE requires 0 combat XP to master.
You cannot have a profession that has that level of combat ability without any combat XP unless you make effectively useless combat droids.
Further DE is trivial to master given the resources. Everyone who has mastered a crafting professions knows that the real hard part is what you do after the master box is clicked.
It is the resource game, the sales, the extractors, the surveying, the subcontractors, the vendors and the shops.
The problem is that giving that master DE box a powerful combat ability means that someone can get the 600K in resources, some simple instructions and a macro and grind out the profession in a matter of hours. After that they have as good a combat droid as any combat profession that would take significantly longer to master.
Then all they need do is take that combat droid and start out competing other combat professions that have not yet gotten to the level that they themselves got access to that droid. Believe me the nerf cries will echo from the heavens if that happens.
Allowing access to the most powerful droids simply by virtue of being a DE cheapens the profession and reduces it to nothing more than a stepping stone on the way to a real combat profession. Does anyone really want that?
Crafting is crafting and combat is combat and if you want to do both spend the skill points and put in the time. There are plenty of skill points, you can be master pistoleer, master droid engineer, have novice medic to pharm III and scout to explore III if you really want to use your own products.
DE should be a key profession, but it should not be THE profession. We already have that, it is called Creature Handler and if things go well it will just be another profession you can be, not one you have to be.