Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: No combat droids, please
My opinion:
Droids should enhance the skills of its master, including combat professions.
I dont think that DE should be a combat class. But I do think that we should make droids that will make combat professions more effective.
Thunderheart wrote:
I have a question here.
There is a real seperation of thought here...
Some want DE's to be a "crafter-only" profession while others want the "combat/crafter" mix...
What are your thoughts?
I already summed up my answer to this question in the following post.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=34307&highlight=#M34307
To recap, I think I have a solution that should satisfy "pure crafting" DEs, "combat hybrid" DEs, AND our potential customers.
For "pure crafting" DEs, I point out that it's not giving us combat droids that would make DE a combat profession. It's giving us combat droids that only DEs can use that makes us a combat class, and which would lead to the "flavor of the month" problems that many of you quite rightly fear.
The suggestion I marked off as "PROPOSED SOLUTION 1A" in the above-linked post offers an extremely simple certification scheme that offers elite combat professions a droid pet without unbalancing the low-end.
Also, I remind you that many DEs are rabidly insistent that we be able to use anything we can make, and I think if we can give them that without causing problems that diminish the value of DE for pure crafters, then we absolutely should. My proposed solution covers that. If other professions have reasonable access to combat droid pets, no one in their right mind is going to grind through the DE tree rather than their preferred elite combat tree.
Result: We have something to sell. Specifically we have something to meet what nine out of ten of our potential customers WANT us to sell them. We won't have a great influx of new DEs, and DEs who want to be able to use the droids they make will absolutely be able to. It seems like a win to me all around.
Thunderheart wrote:
I have a question here.
There is a real seperation of thought here...
Some want DE's to be a "crafter-only" profession while others want the "combat/crafter" mix...
What are your thoughts?
TH, please take this comment to the rest of the devs - the moment you start introducing DE ONLY bonuses to combat, Droid Engineer will become just like what CH currently is. Those in it solely for combat purposes will pick up DE just to become as uber as possible...the same function CH is filling right now.
Now, I'm all for more combat droids though!
The thing that I think is important to understand is that it's the DROID that gives the enhancements, not the profession. Once a droid is crafted it is a semi-intelligent, automated entity. DE is a crafting class, not some combat/crafter hybrid. A -small- bonus perhaps Master Droid Engineer for droid abilities might be nice (fictionally the DE would be able to maintain his droid to a higher level of efficiency?) but it cannot be something that would unbalance the balance of combat and make it anecessary evil of any hard core combatant.
So - DROID ENGINEER profession is a CRAFTING profession. Please keep it that way! Let the enhancements be a function of the final droid.
In this schema, DE's become my medic, my weaponsmith, and my armorer all in one! I get to play a droid. And droids, as PC's, become far more commonplace in the SWG. Cool enuf for luf!
Dr. Vema Gara
Grimjakk wrote:We can't have CH-competitive general use combat droids without recreating the very problem that is just being solved with the CH "dabblers"...
Hogwash.
Combat droids can be general use, powerful (high level CH powerful), and be based on a certification system. This is not the quick and dirty solution, but it is the best long term solution with the best prospects to accomplish the goals of balance, increased star warsy feel, greater purpose for droid engineers and just overall fun for everyone.
High level combat droids should be available to high level (master) combat professions without restriction beyond having a master box in a combat profession. It is balanced because all master combat players get access to a common pool of droids.
Mid level combat droids should be available as tools for crafters on harvester runs and survey missions, high tech bodyguards in effect. Not the best combat droids but not garbage either maybe with special defensive capabilities rather than pure offensive or defense might. Tie these droids to getting master to prevent twinking of newbies but also make them less powerful than master combat profession droids. This limitation to their power recognizes that no combat is required to get a crafting profession and often it is much easier to master a crafting profession than a combat profession given sufficient resources.
Low level combat droids for novice professions so they can get access to something. These droids should not be anything that twinks them or promotes dabbling.
General purpose droids that can be used by anyone without certification with minial combat abilities.
On top of all that we still have plenty of room for specific purpose droids (BH droids, Crafting Droids, Medical Droids) for specific professions. Perhaps even some droids for professions like BH that have special stunning abilities.
IMO Droids should enhance what you do already. Either by making you better at it, or protecting you while you do it. They should be balanced yes, but in order for the game to feel like Star Wars and to allow as many people as possible to participate in that star wars feel we need droids for everyone and a widely distributed and fair certification system is I think the way to do it.
Mmm... And if we're talking about being "true to Star Wars," cloning centers wouldn't exist now, would they?
Combat droids are hardly a dent in continuity. Not nearly as much as some of the other things in this game (which are done for gameplay purposes, obviously).
DE's are crafters, not combat/crafters, the name says it all - Droid Engineer, they create thingsfor others to use.
If DEs do become combat, then I expect you will have to give achitects houses thatfire missiles atoverts, give artisans the abiltiy to turn any item into a bomb, and chefs will be able to posion their own products... Another example: does a armorsmith or gunsmith have any skill branches that allow them to have any special abilities that others dont have? No, they dont, they are crafters, they make stuff for everyone one to use.
If a DE wants to be involved in combat then they should spend some of their left over points pistol or whatever. Its that easy. They shouldnt try and make this profession an 'all-in-one' deal, whats next ?special DE medic skills? Once this profession is on its feet, it will be a good thing on its own and wont be in need of any extra trimmings.
I dont think you can compare DE to CH, they are quite different, a CH trains animals and with that knowlegde they can control a certain dangerous beasts - fine, that makes sense. But it makes no sense to give special access to a high-end combat droid (eg droideka) that only DEs can operate. They are droids, slaves, they do the masters bidding, the master doesnt require any special skills to make it attack/follow/group etc.
Keep the classes combat or craft, if someone wants both they can have both. Theres nothing stopping them from picking up existing combat classes.
/agree
AudioOrgana wrote:
Please don't confuse these two issues - because they may sound diverse but all have the same point : We want new combat droids. If you are going to require certifications, then we should get them - and that's where the combat/crafter idea splinters. Most people don't want to have to make that decision because we want combat droids to sell and use, and have either no certifications or certifications sprinkled throughout all profession trees. Basicly, we don't want to see droid usage as an individual class - but if you are forcing it on us, make it a sub-class of DE.
Willforce wrote:
Better combat droids dont have to be limited to the DE's
I was really hoping players could be droids but the game didnt go that route.
Creating DE only combat droids defeats how the artisan classes are setup and just brings alot of Issues onto the class that CH is going thru now.Only thing is CH takes 2 scout trees and DE's take 1. SO instead of CH/insert class whiners you will have DE/insert class whiners.
Dont get me wrong I would love to see DE combat droids though
CHs don't have to grind crap. They go out and catch things and get exp doing so and then sell their bounty. DEs have a HUGE money and time sink in having to grind close to ONE MIILLION in resources. And most of use need to get Master Artisan becuase of the MA components which are curcial to almost every design -- that's three more branches: Business, Domestic Arts and Surveying -- all of which offer few benifits.
Betatoxin wrote:
Grimjakk wrote:
We can't have CH-competitive general use combat droids without recreating the very problem that is just being solved with the CH "dabblers"...
Hogwash.
I disagree... the min-maxers will shift points to where ever they get the most bang for the buck. Certain combinations ofskill-lineswill always give benefits that outweigh the investments. Add a CH-level pet in there basically for free, and all we'll have done is free up the 29 points people had invested in the CH tree.
I don't think that's even arguable.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
I posted this in another thread and it has been getting 5 stars and agreement:
Quote:
Talking to several other DEs last night gave me an epihany...
Almost all of us think there should be new droid combat models (Droideka, Battle Droid. etc.)
Most of us think that combat droids (at least some of them) shouldbe sellable to non-DE because we need droids to sell.
Some of us think every player should be able to use every combat droid.
Some of us think there should be different combat droids with a system of certifications to restrict use. This would be complicated to implement, and devs can't seem to do any fixes to us without breaking us already.
Some of us think that DEs should get really powerful DE-only droids, giving us a combat edge. This does nothing to help us sell droids.
Agreed in large part but... some of think DEs should be able to use any droid we craft (not necessarily exclusively for DEs).
I proposed some DE-only droids, but that was for fear that the Devs wanted to keep the droid in pact in check. I assume that few would sit through the Master Artsian to Master DE grind just to get a droideka alone and not for the love of crafting. And I love to craft, BTW. I only want a droideka for protection and 'cause its cool.
Implement combat droids usuable by ALL players, but limit non-DEs to one combat droid, and allow advanced DEs (to prevent dabbling) to have 2 of the combat droids.
However, if you give everyone combat droids, and you allow us to simply use more of them at once, EVERYONE is happy.
Seems fair. Agreed if they are droidekas! 
I think there is no way you can satisfy everyone on this one. Someone is going to have to make a call based on what is desired in the overall game.
My middle ground proposal would be to allow DE to have some pretty good combat Droid, but allow us to have multiple Droids. With a single combat droid, and my repair and power droid out, I get to be effective. While some Elite Combat professions can have the best combat droid, which I can make but not use.
Kitsunetsuki wrote:Thunderheart wrote:
and DEs who want to be able to use the droids they make will absolutely be able to. It seems like a win to me all around.
Oh it is a win alright, but not in a good way, and not for the DE profession as a whole.
I uncomfortable with giving DE carte blanche access to the best of the best offensive droid weaponry just because they make them. Why? You should never be able to get access to any top level combat capability without EVER being in combat, period.
People make comparison for DE getting top level combat droids to CH getting top level pets. This comparison is based on flawed logic. You see CH xp comes from fighting ie risk, droid XP comes from grinding ie no risk, huge difference.
Giving DE this uber ability is also inconsistent with other crafting professions. Master weaponsmiths cannot use (not effectively anyway) LLC, Rocket Launchers or any other weapon they craft without also having the required combat skill box. If you give DE this ability you better let weaponsmiths use all their weapons to max effect because that is EXACTLY the same. Further weaponsmiths are not the only crafters with this restriction on them. Architects have similar restrictions on items they currently, or will make. Without politician architects will not be able to use city halls or a myriad other items for player cities. BE's also have a restriction, they can make pets, but they cannot even train them. These are all fair and balanced restrictions that should be applied to DE as well.
Besides DE already has restrictions on their droids when those droids have modules that are not useful, or not accessible for them (medical and structure crafting modules come to mind) that I do not hear anyone complaining about.
I can tell you exactly what would happen 24 hours after such a change. Everyone looking to get a master combat profession would immediately grind out DE (about 600K in resources). Based on the time required to grind my second master architect (which requires more total resources and XP) it would take me about 6 hours, maybe less, to master DE if I ground solid. Grinding that I can do all from the comfort and safety of my in game home.
Within a few days there would be resource collectors selling DE packs. Perfectly balanced collection of resources guaranteed to make you a master DE in a matter of hours, email with macro and instructions included at no extra charge.
Once the soon to be combat master got DE they would go buy their uber combat droid and proceed to march up their combat tree at a much increased rate due to the protection afforded by the uber combat droid that master DE gave them access to. Then once they get close to their master combat profession they dump DE.
I would weep to see the DE profession reduced to nothing more than a quick and dirty shortcut to a master combat profession.
No the more I think about it the more I do not like that idea at all.
Give droid engineers and other master level crafters combat droids yes, but make them balanced with the effort required to master a crafting profession and appropriate for the job that crafters do that involves combat/risk, namely harvester management and surveying.
DE needs love yes, they need fixing yes, but they should not go from bottom to ultimate crafting/combat combo in one step. Simply allow the DE to fill the roll they should have had at release, a maker of tools, autonomous tools yes, but tools.
DE needs to be a kery profession in a balanced game with diversity of professions, DE does not need to be THE profession.