Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: No combat droids, please
I think if you just FIXED the class and gave more combat droids to sell on par with pets in the world, that would satify alot, then you could work on adding better things.
I agree with the original poster, but not entirely for the reasons specified.
The "star warsy" argument is one thing, and I'll agree that, in the time frame of the films, you don't see combat droids. From my recollection, they were outlawed. Largely as a result of what you see in the Clone Wars (or what we'll HEAR about -- still ticked at Lucas for not SHOWING us the clone wars...), which is cheap, disposable armies that can ravage a planet without any real cost of life. Anyway, that's all beside the point (or at least, beside MY point).
I'm not a DE. I don't even play one on TV. I'm a weaponsmith on one server, though, and the point that a particular poster made about how "Hey, if we're suddenly turning DE's into a combat hybrid class, why not weaponsmiths too?" This is a SERIOUS slippery slope.
Now, I dislike the Pet Wars aspect of this game. I REALLY dislike it. For a number of reasons, in fact. I find it to be immersion-breaking. I find it to be inherently unbalanced. And I find it to create cookie-cutter templates that powergamers gravitate towards. These days, everyone and his mother has a [Insert Name of Big Nasty Creature Tank Here]. Whether it's a Graul, a Rancor, etc., it doesn't matter.
I've seen posts in this thread where people ask to be given combat droids that can kick a Graul's ass. This is the same mentality that many of the CH players have, and frankly, it troubles me. It doesn't SURPRISE me, but it troubles me that the devs would be bending to this kind of attitude.
First off, I don't think that DEs should become the new CH class. And believe me, if combat droids were added that could fight off a Graul, that's EXACTLY what would happen. Granted, it'd be better than what you see currently, but not by much.
Secondly, I'm betting that a lot of the "GIMME A COMBAT DROID THAT CAN KILL ANYTHING" supporters support this position largely out of envy of CH's (I'm not one of those either, by the way). Let me remind these players that BEs (the functional equivalent of DEs) do NOT command high-powered animals that they create. People want power. Plain and simple. And frankly, I think there's far too much power already in this game. If DEs are given major combat abilities, they will become the mechanical version of CH's, and tons of powergamers will flock to play this profession. And then you know what will happen? The rest of us will start complaining and you'll get nerfed. That's how it'll happen. Mark my words.
Combat droids are not the answer to how to make droids more useful. There are PLENTY of ways to make droids more interactive and useful besides giving people combat droids. The frenzy around combat droids started largely in reaction to the problem withCHs dominating the game and issues around "Starwarsiness". Well, here's a tip folks. It is only MARGINALLY more Star Warsy to see everyone playing as a DE with giant uber droids than it is to see everyone playing as a CH with giant uber pets.
My final problem with any kind of surrogate combat entity is the fundamental problem that I have with CH's and pets. Whenever you give someone this ability AND give them the ability to wield a weapon, that player has an instant advantage over a player who does not use pets or droids. The devs have realized this, but they have not, in my opinion, gone far enough to balance for it. I can see the same thing happening with DEs if they're given combat droids exclusively. For that matter, if they're given combat droids that can be sold to regular players, this will only spread combat droids around. I know many DEs are just itching to up their sales by doing this, but think of the long-term game-wide consequences instead of the short-term money-in-my-pocket/power-to-kill-more-things solution.
Thunderheart wrote:
None get advantages to the actual "use" of their products.yeah, but wouldnt you folks LIKE to have a neat aspect to the class?
Im not disgreeing with you guys...just trying to understand the reasons why
TH, when deciding things for our class please try to take most of it from those that are actually in our class.I am
I just look for how the profession interdependencies are playing out...
The dev's DE plan was highly underwhelming.Well, thats because I just got here and Im working through it with you and also, a lot of the stuff you guys think is "easy" to implement, just isn't that easy.
Thanks for all your input here. Its really helpful.Im going to spend tonight and tomorrow on this to get it right and continue my work with Sintrosi.
See her next week for details, but remember, there is a LOT of stuff here and to get it right, Im going to have to find out a lot of things...
have a great Haloween!
Neat he says. Spoken like a combat person. If it does not kill things it is not useful right? All anyone really wants to do is kill things right?
Did it ever occur to you that a whole lot of people play SWG precisely because of its wide variety of nonCombatant gameplay? That no other MMOG out there save perhaps SIMS online allows you to play the game for weeks or even months and be highly successful without getting one single kill and that is part of SWGs appeal? That no game combines the two playstyles into one amazing universe like SWG does?
No there are a lot of people who would not think it is Neat.
That aside TH you do realize DE requires no Combat xp to level and that leveling it can be done in a day or two given a moderate amount of resources in the safety of town or a private residence? Giving DE special combat droids without the risk and comparable effort required for real combat professions?
Neat...I guarantee the second a master DE fresh out of his house with his combat droid in tow stole the first kill from a novice pistoleer Neat would turn to Nerf!!
Just to be clear there is nothing in my posts suggesting changes to DE that I "Think" is easy. Nothing ever worthwhile was easy.
The devs messed up Droids massively in SWG and it is going to take a huge effort to turn it around. Quick and dirty "neat" fixes are worse than nothing at all.
First off , I replied to this last night, shortly after it was posted. I didn't think it would become a 9page thread.
I'm going to say it again. If you havent played a DE to atleast mid profession you have no clue what this class needs, you only see the results of the creation, not the process. Sure you may own some droids, but you have no idea how painful it is to get to the level of decent droid creation. I'm not talking the "grind" here, I'm talking the mental pain of having to tell buyer after buyer "I'm sorry, we can't make that, at one point yes, but not anymore"
I'm a merchant, I have NO, repeat NO, interest in combat - but I feel we need a sellable , usable combat droid. Not DE only, not splitting the class into Handler and Merchant...Something that works, that I can sell. Armor seems to work, weapons, buildings -- these things sell to the public. I'm lucky to sell 2-3 droids a week, and I've gone out of my way to have a shop that is close to town , decorated with 140 custom made named items, making the shop look like a working factory. Its a wonderful shop, people mail me how impressed they were seeing it, and then tell me "If they ever fix droids I'll come back".
Thunderheart please don't think about splitting this class, just FIX the BUGS, give us a plan with upgrade and actually put them into work, bugless....We dont want much, we just want to function.
I think some people are trivializing the effort and sacrifice that it takes to make it to master DE. You have to get through the artisan tree and up the DE tree. Even if you have all of the resources, it takes a long time grinding out the same stuff over and over again (and everything is a matter of hours...even if it takes a week). Also, to master the DE profession, you are giving up a pretty significant number of skill points...points that then cannot be spent on other professions. Remember, this game is a balancing act. That is why having a Master DE only combat droid might be a good idea...in order to use it, your average leet powned dood would have to go through a very significant effort of grinding AND surrender some of his other combat or movement skills to continue to use this Master DE droid. Really we are just talking about balance here. Others that solely want to craft can still do this. You will be a better merchant DE than the ones who take up the profession simply for the joy of going hunting with the super DE droid (and no I am NOT talking about something that ownz a Rancor, just something with a reasonable amount of HAM that does more than 60 dmg/min). I for one, joined up for the DE profession in order to do a little bit of both.
I just fail to see why we can't both be useful as a combat droid supplier (and user) as well as having a variety of droids serving the various other professions. Can't we all just get along?!? Please try not to divide the profession into the evil combat professions and the soft and fluffy carebear crafters...both are reasonable things to persue and we will only serve to further confuse the devs as to how to meet ALL of our various needs.
Ok, its going to sound like a whine, but if it hasnt been said it should be.
I see the DE's using Master DE + combat, Hell i even saw someone using BH.
I am a BH, I can tell you, NOT!.
Master BH leaves you with a wopping 33 points, anyone who has used a carbine will tell you, you have to have medic. frankly if your combat without medic, your a clone center groopie.
so, your say, i have to spend 15 points in novice artisan, 10 points for eng line, 50 points for master DE, so for everyone to be allowed to have a shake at master DE and not unbalancing everything, 60 extra points have to come from somewhere and only allocatable to BH , and commando...
I know this is insnt popular, but really alot of the problems I see, isnt really that DE's and crafters want some combat skills, or that combat people want crafting abilities.
its this whole Single Charecter per server. I want a combat dood, and I want a crafter, I dont think 2 toons per server is such a bad idea.
as for the whole Econmy deal, How many people have Medical skills, and buy there Stim's, or how many architects buy walls from other crafters. multiple toons per server worked in UO, 5 per slot. its got one of the best in game economy . even though most people have a GM blacksmith. its easier to buy something from the shop, and with SWG experimentation, its easier to buy things then to make it.
So considering this, why not allow 2 toons, max 10 per all server,, limit one crafer and one fighter per server.
we all know eventually they are going to up the 250 skill points, why not just open another char?
Thunderheart wrote...a quote that I won't re-paste for the 100th time, heh.
I will just say that I agree with the many excellent arguments here about why the DE crafting class should remain, yes, a crafting class. This is a no-brainer.
The real discussion should be about how to certify these new droid combat modules and/or combat droids most effectively. I see two primary options:
- Overlay the new droid combat certifications onto the existing professions system.
- Create a new profession(s) devoted to the certifications.
I feel that option #2 would probably be too complex and difficult to implement. I think option #1 would be very easy as a method of giving droid (read: Star Warsy-type) combat capabilties to all professions:
- Basic Novice - Droid Combat 1
- Basic Master - Droid Combat 2
- Elite Novice -Droid Combat 3
- Elite Master - Droid Combat 4
Wala! An instant, easy, hassle-free droid combat certification system!
Betatoxin is absolutely right.
People need to understand, this game cannot be played at the higher levels now without a Pet. Droids should be that pet for everyone but CH.