Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Can someone justify DE only droids?
oaktree68 wrote:
OK, a few responses. First, lets try to keep this off topic. No matter how reasonable an example sounds in the real world it has little to nothing to do with the game. I've shown examples of that, and I can show more examples if you want. Reasonability doesnt always mean justification.
Erm... lol... "No matter how reasonable an example sounds" and "I've shown examples of that" just struck me as funny to be in the same paragraph.. Can you show me an example where one of your examples shows the example of... Oh no, I've gone crosseyed...
Second, I'll explain why I'm here (and why class doesnt matter). This decision isnt going to effect just you. This is going to effect probably around 10 other classes. If you are given a DE only combat droid of increased effectiveness compared to what is available to everyone, then every single artisan class is going to start screaming for one. And if classes arre really smart, they'll ask for it as a master only item they can create, I know I would. And when it comes to our justification, its simple:
"DE has one, and we are every bit as much of a crafter as they are. So why does one class get added abilities compared to others."
Class doesn't matter... I feel any "potential customer" has the right (nay, duty) to come to our forums and express concerns. Also, I mentioned in my previous post that it wouldn't be very tough to give BE's a "Master Bio-Engineer" perk... Master Bio-Engineers can create a hot-pink dewback, or a dewback that's a hair faster than all non-BE Dewbacks... And make it Master BE only... I Wouldn't think of it as unbalancing the classes, I'd think of it more along the lines of giving Master BE's something noone else has...
You mentioned being a former EQ'er... Did giving Wizards the Translocate spell line totally un-balance the whole game? No, it was an extra perk for a high-level wizard... Something no other class had.
And you what, it really isnt going to matter which lass I am: BE, architect, weaponsmith, tailor,chef......etc This justification works for every single class out there. I mean, can you really think about a reason why this arguement isnt valid. I can't
Third, I can explain real simply why you are considered an artisan class. Cause all of your skills come from the artisan beggining profession and branch from there. Just like a rifleman start from marksman and are a ranged class, and TKA starts from brawler and are a melee class, and doctor starts from medic and is a healing class....you start with artisan so you are an artisan class. Anyone not understand this? (Let's please not break into a discussion of multi-line and hybrid classes please, thats not what this is about).
We are a crafting class... No argument there... But TKA's are a brawler class, and can heal themselves (through Meditate)... Crap! Mixing of the professions, how dare they!
Fourth, why all the bad blood about the probot. Considering pets are going down to CL10, let me tell you, a 800 HAM, medium armor, 40% resistances droid is looking **edit** good as sidekick compared to any creature I can think of. I really cant think of anything else I'd want, can you?
All the bad blood from the probot comes from the "Non-CH" creatures... Our droid was "nerfed" because it was too powerful for any old joe to use... So they impliment good Non-CH creatures that anyone can use? As far as the "which is a better sidekick"... I'd rather have a CL 10 creature with 1700 HAM and little/no armor that can be healed, than a Medium 40% resistances droid that you can't.
You see, this discussion really doesnt just concern you. Depending on which way the Devs go on this one, there are going to be alot of classes effected by this. Personally, I think this is going to open a Pandora's Box if this change goes in leading to either A) everyone getting something (kinda stupid for everyone to have their own combat device). Or B) after recieving your own pet, its going to get nerfed/taken away because the devs arent going to want to give everybody something (the precedent they started with you). Either scenario isnt a real pretty picture. And personally, I find this trend of upwards balancing to be quite disturbing for the long term health of the game.
Again, I still don't understand the whole "You're a crafting class, you can't combat" deal... Giving us a unique combat droid chassis with little/no benifit over over our top-of-the-line "sellable" droid isn't unbalancing anything and it isn't breaking game balance anywhere at all.
Tilen
Having a DE only COMBAT droid makes about as much sense as having a Tailor only combat suit. Thats cool, it would give them some edge in combat. The problem is, that class is not designed to participate in any combat in this game. Period. Notice the reason Artisans are completely different from Brawlers and Marksmen, no weapon certifications, no combat bonuses. Simply put an artisan is not meant to fight in swg.
Of course anyone can fight with a droid, as long as you dont get attacked. Notice how that sentence said ANYONE. Having a combat enhancing droid for a non-combat profession just doesnt make sense. Wookiees living on Endor, do not make sense.
I think having a DE only droid would be nice, but I disagree that it should be a combat droid.
"Make the connection from crafter to hybrid/combat and im with you. And make it for architect/weaponsmith/armorsmith at the very least as well since they are your sister classes with the same pre-reqs"
Ok, let's hit this one now.
4/5 of the game content is combat thus one could go furthur to say that 4/5 of the market is for combat related goods and services. Game balance issues made it such that SOE decided that pets should be subject to certfification and promptly nerfed the Probot and in so doing nerfed 4/5 of the market for the DE. That 4/5 of the market can not and will not ever be opened? They can make that 1/5 of the market absolutely beautiful but ultimately it won't make the Droid Engineer anything more thana novelty and the Star Wars Galaxy will remain devoid of Droids.
Architects can make a fortune making houses and furniture and harvesters. Not combat related, yes. Appeals to that 1/5 of the market true. But, the harvesters are sold to all crafters and resource gatherers and many of these crafters have that broad market thus the Architect has indirect access to this additional market with a high end item. Even combatants may want that trophy house and since they don't need lots they are the ones most able to enjoy them without it digging into their bottom line.
Weaponsmith and Armorsmiths have a 4/5 of the market impact. All combat professions have weapons that they require and they require nothing but the best. Anyone can use armor and while it may not be as effective as it should be it has a definate and clear demand
I don't need to make a connection between these other sibling crafting professions and Droid Engineer to make the justification. While they do have their issue they have a broad enough market that they can actually sell their products while Droid Engineers struggle to sell to anyone and that's more often than not just someone wanting a novelty item that they don't actually use. Sorry, Droid Engineers aren't the galactic Toy Makers or Novelty Shop. Shouldn't be that way at all.
Combat Droids had a prominent role in Star Wars and anyone that knows Star Wars is well aware that there were Combat Models that appeared in just about every movie at one point or another and also had a prominent role in at least one. Game balance issues brought a swift death to the only Combat Droid that has ever existed and since then it is exclusively creature and factional pets that are part of Star Wars.
I don't associated major battles of Star Wars with Grauls and Rancors. I associate it with People and Droids. Droids need to be given their place in the Galaxy. Given the fact that Combat Droids can only be issued through certifications what existing profession is best suited to use them? If thet answer is anyone that is already a Master of a Combat profession then try again. The only balanced combat droid that could be given to them would be a pea shooter against a bazooka so they wouldn't really have a need.
Okey dokey Oak, here I go-
First off that Cl 40 Sintrosi said was just something she pulled out of the air just to show that we should get a stronger droid. All of my fellow DE's who know about creature levels would agree that is way too high (above graul mauler level for those who don't know). A CL of 25-30 for our best combat droid would be fair.
Also I see the example of "well if a MDE gets to build some really good combat droid and only they can use it, why not a weaponsmith get to build some good unique weapon only he can use?"
- Just because you know how to build something doesn't mean you know how to use it effectively. From a woodshop class I learned how to make a bow, but I am horrible as using it because I have not been trained in it. Likewise, I have no idea how to build a hangun, but I have had training in them and am effective in usingthem.
-Now why would a MDE ( I ONLY want this droid to be for Master's only, which I will elaborate on later) get to build some unique thing only he could use even though he has no training in it? How is it different from the weaponsmith example? It is a fundamental difference in the products. Droids are intelligent, can do things themselves, and as we can see from the movies even children know how to operate them.
Ultimately I only really want some good new combat droids to build, but the devs wont give me good combat droids to sell else the pet wars will become the droid wars ( I shudder to see rolling armies of droidekas on the battlefield ). So the only way to get this droid would be to limit who can get it, and such why it would be a MDE only droid. There are currently two droids in the game we cannot make, the droideka and the IG assassain droid. I would like to see the droideka go MDE only, while the IG assassain droid would be certified to novice elite combat professions.(Timeline wise, droidekas were pretty unknown during this period, whileassassain droids have been read about in the EU and suchand so would bemore common )I've found that a probot is good for tanking someone up to a novice elite class, but once there the probots gets to be almost usless. A new combat droid for those in the novice elite class would have something else to help tank for them to get them to master in their profession.
Making this MDE only would helpdabblers (since you arent dabbling if you are forced to get master for what you want). Since the pet isn't near as good as a master CH pet, people would stick with CH.
Master means too little in this game. For most of the crafting like classes (BE, architect, doc, DE, armorsmith, weaponsmith) getting to Master level usually means "wow I get +10 experimentation and a new schematic." Master seems to gain you nothing grander than the skills before it granted. As a master, we are the BEST in our profession, the absolute best and cannot get any better. I would think that as a MDE I would be able to build myself a unique decent combat droid at master level as a perk. Yes, I want this as a MDE perk. I think all master levels should get some kind of perk.
Here are some ideas for Master level perks (REMEMBER! these are ideas as examples, im not proposing anything here other than masters should get some perk thats related to their profession. Any numbers I throw out is for qualitative comparison only)
-Because a Master Architect would have extensive knowledge of structural engineering and would know how to make a building to last, maybe at Master level Architects would get a dramatic decrease in the percentage of the maintenance they would have to pay on their house (say only 25% of whats normal)
-Weaponsmiths with their knowledge of making and repairing weapons, maybe the condition on whatever weapons they use would stop being damaged as fast as it is so their weapons would last a very long time.
-Armorsmiths with their knowledge of armor and armor layers wouldnt have the normal encumberance costs, so they can wear great armor and not have to have it affect their stats so much.
-Maybe doctors wouldn't have to pay at the cloning terminals, or give everyone grouped with them a much reduced cloning cost.
-AND, finally, maybe master BE's should get some special pet of their own (in the comparable CL25-30 range for MDE pet). With a BE's knowledge of bio engineering, maybe they can take some DNA from a varied amount of creatures and make a unique creature that doesn't exist anywhere and engineer it so only MBEs can use it and train it in commands.
Phew. As our correspondent Sintrosi said, she believes that the devs are heading DEs to become "(CH+BE+DROID) - Organic Pets = New DE." ( you can see the thread here http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=31638
Ultimately I believe this will happen. There is a majority of DE's here who think we should get a DE only droid ( WHICH should ONLY be MDE only. No chance for dabblers.) We are not asking for something "uber" as so many against this think we are. We will not become a combat class. You will not see us soloing Nightsisters with this droid. I do not this this request is so unreasonable and will change the whole game as some are predicting.I already see us as a semi-pet class, and getting a semi-good combat droid does not seem far fetched to me.
The game will change, professions a year, two years from now will all be different in one way or another. MMORPGs are never entirely finished. Look as how much UO has changed since it was released in 1998, if you never saw screenshots of it you'd hardly know it was the same game.
EricTheGreat wrote:
Making this MDE only would helpdabblers (since you arent dabbling if you are forced to get master for what you want). Since the pet isn't near as good as a master CH pet, people would stick with CH.
________________________________________________________________
That's supposed to be "......help STOP dabblers...."
I should proof-read more.
/cry
EricTheGreat wrote:
Ultimately I believe this will happen. There is a majority of DE's here who think we should get a DE only droid ( WHICH should ONLY be MDE only. No chance for dabblers.) We are not asking for something "uber" as so many against this think we are. We will not become a combat class. You will not see us soloing Nightsisters with this droid. I do not this this request is so unreasonable and will change the whole game as some are predicting.I already see us as a semi-pet class, and getting a semi-good combat droid does not seem far fetched to me.
Hahaha... majority. Well yes, technically that is true. Out of 80-odd total votes (from 275,000+ subscribers) there was a slight majority in favor of a DE-only droid. {sarcasm} Oh yeah, that's scientifically accurate and representative. {/sarcasm} Forum polls are useless, folks. Worse, they are probably detrimental to the process because they are not and cannot be representative of the desires of the entire community - too few people actually read the forums, and of the ones who do read, too few are interested enough to bother to vote.
By the way, if you already see us as a semi-pet class, then you must see everyone that way. Because we have no more droid use capability than anyone else in the game. Don't be blinded by your desires - we are not currently a pet class. We are not currently a combat class. We are crafters, plain and simple.
Kollos wrote:
Hahaha... majority. Well yes, technically that is true. Out of 80-odd total votes (from 275,000+ subscribers) there was a slight majority in favor of a DE-only droid. {sarcasm} Oh yeah, that's scientifically accurate and representative. {/sarcasm} Forum polls are useless, folks. Worse, they are probably detrimental to the process because they are not and cannot be representative of the desires of the entire community - too few people actually read the forums, and of the ones who do read, too few are interested enough to bother to vote.
By the way, if you already see us as a semi-pet class, then you must see everyone that way. Because we have no more droid use capability than anyone else in the game. Don't be blinded by your desires - we are not currently a pet class. We are not currently a combat class. We are crafters, plain and simple.
LOL "technically that is true." Somaybe now everyone can finally see that a majority of DEs wants a DE-only droid. And the vote was meant for DEs only, not all 275k+ subscribers. If the devs did not care about people on the forums input, there would never be any profession correspondents like Sintrosi. I assume that people who post on the profession forums are those who care about the profession, and so they would want feedback from said persons.
The rest of your post I will not specifically respond to. It is just a rehash of the same thing you post on every single thread. When you come up something new, then I will work to come up with a counter-argument.
EricTheGreat wrote:
LOL "technically that is true." Somaybe now everyone can finally see that a majority of DEs wants a DE-only droid. And the vote was meant for DEs only, not all 275k+ subscribers. If the devs did not care about people on the forums input, there would never be any profession correspondents like Sintrosi. I assume that people who post on the profession forums are those who care about the profession, and so they would want feedback from said persons.
Ok then, it's not meant for all 275,000+ subscribers. But since you just admitted it was for all Droid Engineers, do you really think that a self-selected (thrice over) group of 83 people gives an accurate picture of what at least 2750 Droid Engineers believes? We're 1% of all characters according to Sony's own statistics, and since each account can have multiple characters on multiple servers, that means there are at least 2750 Droid Engineers in existence.
As usual, you post nothing. I respect Drashk because he puts thought into his posts and has demonstrated that he is intelligent. You add nothing of value.
Statistically I would say we as a group would be pretty represenative of the group as a whole. The devs have correspondents who ask for our opinon on these boards. I sure they could send a mass mail to every DE to get their individual opinions if they were so inclined.
And once again you say nothing new either, your post is again without content, and youattempt a personal attack.
But if you want personal attacks,how seriously can we take someone whos name is "Orcslayer" in a star wars game?
I get the feeling you're just waiting for WoW to come out.
/waitforkollostorehashmoreofthesameoldcrap
oaktree68 wrote:
Grimjakk wrote:
Agreed... the whole point of this is that Droid Engineers will become a pet class, different than CH's, but in the same league.
Great, explain to me why Armorsmith/Arch/Weaponsmith doesnt get to make a similar leap again? Explain that and I'm behind you 100%
Perhaps because they haven't been crippled since release?
Two reasons for the change to DE's... one minor, one major.
First, DE's have been crippled as a crafting profession since their code was first laid down. I played a DE in beta3. Most of our issues have been untouched since then.
Second, there is a serious immersion factor with the overabundance of creature pets in this game. Adding a powerful combatdroid alternativewill help swing the balance back toward the "StarWarsy" side of the scale. But a powerful pet can't be added to a profession that already has strong combat skills without overbalancing them. So making DE's an artisan/pet profession along the same lines that CH's are a scout/pet profession is the best way to add powerful combat droids without upsetting the overall game balance.
I'll let you decide which is minor and which is major...
Grimjak wrote:
Not if we're a pet profession. I think that our "CL Management" rating should be lower than a CH's, because our pets are easier to come by, but other than that, I don't see any issues with balance. To be "effective", a DE must have at least 4-0-0-4 in the artisan tree, which costs the same number of skill points that a CH must invest in Scout.
No, to be an effective DE, you need the same number of points as it takes to make master BE (93 I think). You CHOOSE to harvest your own resources. You CHOOSE to become master artisan. This arguement I've seen a few times here. No one forces you to use your skill points in any particular order. Dont want to get your own mats, hire someone to do it for you. Dont want MA, get someone to make the items for you. I dont even want to think of how many lines I would need to go up to be a suffiecient, effective BE. But those are choices I can either decide to/not to make. So make the same choices.
I said to be an "effective" DE, and I'll stand by that. I maintain that any DE who doesn't harvest their own resources can hardly be effective. You do realize that 100's of thousands of units are needed to get to MDE, and that for the majority of the climb we have NOTHING that's marketable.
For every credit I've earned selling droids, I've earned 1000 selling resources or Master Artisan components.
Minimum skill point cost may only be 92, but unless they are being supplied free resources and Master Artisan components, or have a fortune stashed away from some other profession, I don't think its possible for a player to skill up to MDE without at least having survey4 (106pts), if not Master Artisan (140pts.).
God, I hope this doesnt explode the page
So far so good.
My character has been used in many games, thus the name Orcslayer. If you knew what the word orc really means, you wouldn't have a problem with it anyway.
Statistically, you have no idea whether or not this self-selected group of people represents the larger whole. And in fact, as has been proven in other fields many times in the past, a self-selected vocal minority rarely represents the opinions of the whole. (Note that this applies to my opinions as well as yours.) What that is saying is what I said earlier - that poll was useless and served no purpose. We cannot determine anything from it, other than that of the 83 people who voted, a slight majority favored a DE-only combat droid. Period.
I respond in kind. If you don't want me to make personal attacks, you shouldn't have started doing it first.
At least I post constructive comments. All you do is flame people who disagree with you.
Please post a link to where I did a personal attack against you first. I'd be very interested in seeing this because I have no memory of it.
What I do know is that the devs want our opinion, though we are a minority of the DE players, and so we give it to them through our correspondent. And our correspondent said she will go with the majority decision, as she said in her "2 cents thread" - "And remember ... even if we are on opposite sides of the fence on this. I still represent you all as a whole and will not be pushing my own agenda unless it coincides with a majority." (you can see the thread here http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=36422&page=3 )
"At least I post constructive comments. All you do is flame people who disagree with you"
---- You should look in a mirror Kollos, I'm sure I'm not the only one here annoyed by your constand ranting and raving. I would be surprised if you have changed one mind. You seem to me like someone whining because they don't think they are going to get it their way. You've earned any flaming directed at you.
If you want to continue your diatribe, go ahead. If you ever post something that has a thoughtful new idea or some new (THOUGHTFUL)way of looking at the DE-only situation I'll respond, else, consider yourself ignored.
- A cetacean (Grampus griseus) related to and resembling the dolphins but lacking a beaklike snout.
- Any of various similar cetaceans, such as the killer whale. "
I'm pretty sure that's not what you had in mind for the meaning of Orc, but rather the mythical creature. Whether it is a "vaguely cetacean sea monster " (Encyclopedia Britannica) or the more known Tolkien version, it still sure isn't Star Wars. Unless of course you've made up a definition, in that case I am at a loss and give up. 