Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Can someone justify DE only droids?
justification. Well, I'll start by offering one.
A Master level Droid Engineer would create a custom droid for him/herself. Wouldn't you?
This droid could take two forms: Jack-of-all-trades, Bodyguard.
There isn't a reason to build anything else. A truly advanced and skilled DE would spend
time jacking around with his own personal droid.
It would be a droid that could assist with any task he wanted to accomplish.
Posessing repair, power, crafting, data, medical, and storage capabilities. The MDE could
use this all the time. It would be the most functional thing he could make.
...or...
It would provide protection. It would be the most advanced combat droid he could design.
Heavily armored. High-powered weaponry. It would protect the MDE from danger. Other people
hire bodyguards, the MDE would make himself one.
Either way, the MDE would be the only one skilled enough to maintain this custom invention.
It would be the focus of the DE's attention and would be used to hone his abilities.
This makes sense. In game terms... it would mean a droid with a very large number of slots. If we are getting weapon modules, all we would need is a MDE level droid frame, that
only MDE's can use, with six or eight module slots and two armor slots.
This way, the MDE could make their custom droid into what they want.
Jack-of-all-trades, Bodyguard, or a mix of both.
They could only make one, and only they could use it. Then we could get past this "DE only combat droid BS, and just have a DE only droid.
What's wrong with that?
Senor
Thanks Zocima! That's precisely where I stand too..my deranged little logic engine just doesn't explain itself as well as it used to. 
I could care less if the droid is "uber combat". As a master DE, I MOST CERTAINLY would build myself an awesome droid.
One aspect of this that could be used to balance it out a bit (for those crying "nerf" before we even get anything) is that my advanced prototype droid.. be it combat or utility.. wouldn't necessarily be hrmm.. how to put it.. "stable". It's the trade-off for using something that nobody else can use.. it's an early beta, for lack of a better example. It may be more powerful, but it's notcompletely polishedeither. That would keep the l337 d00dz from grinding to MDE fora super-droid. If their prize droid is a little flaky at times due to it being an early design, they'd probaby just rather be a CH and get a regular ol' graul or rancor.
Cheers,
Nice post, Grimjakk, thanks.
Grimjakk wrote:
Compare the probot to a CL-10 (post-nerf) non-CH creature pet. More effective? Less effective? Forget the displayed CL-16... apparantly that was the level of apre-nerf probot. I'm just curious as to what level our current 'bots are. The armor helps it conserve its small HAM, but its damage output is so low,I'm afraid that after the AI fixes, its not going to be able to hold agro very well. In other words, after the first shot, its not going to matter what armor your droid has... its not the one that'll be getting chewed on.
This is just my own off-the-cuff totally unscientific number-out-of-my-ass guess, but I get the feeling that the current Probot is somewhere between 8 and 10. It clearly has better defense than that, but its pathetic damage output gimps it in head-to-head combat. Leave its HAM, armor, and resists unchanged and up its damage to 110-120 and I think it would kick any CL 10 pet's lil' furry hiney.
I may be totally off the wall, but my reading of what Thunderheart has posted is that droids are going to be allowed to be more powerful than non-CH pets. Probably not a whole lot more powerful for balance reasons, but powerful enough that anyone wishing to purchase a combat sidekick will be buying a droid. This is in part based on the fact that Creature Handlers are being given an exclusive new market - Mounts - so taking combat sidekicks away from them isn't going to hurt them at all from an economy point of view.
I agree with you that the only way we're going to see a "good" combat droid is if we become a pet profession. Good, of course, being relative and hard to define, but probably at least in the neighborhood of CL 25-30. They just can't put that powerful of a general-use pet into the game without totally reworking all of the mobs also. I'd just rather not become a pet profession, which is why I oppose the idea so much. I do completely understand other people's desires to become a pet profession, though... I just hope I get my way and they don't. 
Watch, I'll probably get flamed for that. 
standup_philosopher wrote:
One aspect of this that could be used to balance it out a bit (for those crying "nerf" before we even get anything) is that my advanced prototype droid.. be it combat or utility.. wouldn't necessarily be hrmm.. how to put it.. "stable". It's the trade-off for using something that nobody else can use.. it's an early beta, for lack of a better example. It may be more powerful, but it's notcompletely polishedeither. That would keep the l337 d00dz from grinding to MDE fora super-droid. If their prize droid is a little flaky at times due to it being an early design, they'd probaby just rather be a CH and get a regular ol' graul or rancor.
That's a very reasonable compromise that fits very well into the definition ofa personal droid. It can do more... most of the time. But sometimes when you most need it something goes wrong and it just won't work. So you have to fiddle with it some more, adjust some settings (translation: store it and leave it stored for x minutes), then see if it'll work again.
I was going to respond to Zocima and say that sure, I'd have some souped-up droid for my own use, but from a realism perspective SOMEONE would want to buy it and I'd sell it, and then I'd create another one for my personal use, but someone would buy that one, and pretty soon I'd just be manufacturing my "personal" droid for other people. But not if my "personal" droid were an early beta that wasn't all there upstairs...
Kollos wrote:
Nice post, Grimjakk, thanks.
Grimjakk wrote:
Compare the probot to a CL-10 (post-nerf) non-CH creature pet. More effective? Less effective? Forget the displayed CL-16... apparantly that was the level of apre-nerf probot. I'm just curious as to what level our current 'bots are. The armor helps it conserve its small HAM, but its damage output is so low,I'm afraid that after the AI fixes, its not going to be able to hold agro very well. In other words, after the first shot, its not going to matter what armor your droid has... its not the one that'll be getting chewed on.
This is just my own off-the-cuff totally unscientific number-out-of-my-ass guess, but I get the feeling that the current Probot is somewhere between 8 and 10. It clearly has better defense than that, but its pathetic damage output gimps it in head-to-head combat. Leave its HAM, armor, and resists unchanged and up its damage to 110-120 and I think it would kick any CL 10 pet's lil' furry hiney.
Yeah, that's pretty much where I'd pegged it... just guesswork tho'. No testing.
I may be totally off the wall, but my reading of what Thunderheart has posted is that droids are going to be allowed to be more powerful than non-CH pets. Probably not a whole lot more powerful for balance reasons, but powerful enough that anyone wishing to purchase a combat sidekick will be buying a droid. This is in part based on the fact that Creature Handlers are being given an exclusive new market - Mounts - so taking combat sidekicks away from them isn't going to hurt them at all from an economy point of view.
I was reading it more that our current combat droid would be brought up to CL-10... and maybe we'd be given one a tiny bit better. Its kinda like reading tea leaves tho'. Its easy to see what you want/fearseeing... instead of the wet, soggy mass that's really allit really amounts too.
I agree with you that the only way we're going to see a "good" combat droid is if we become a pet profession. Good, of course, being relative and hard to define, but probably at least in the neighborhood of CL 25-30. They just can't put that powerful of a general-use pet into the game without totally reworking all of the mobs also. I'd just rather not become a pet profession, which is why I oppose the idea so much. I do completely understand other people's desires to become a pet profession, though... I just hope I get my way and they don't.
Watch, I'll probably get flamed for that.
Not by me... I just give the horse a smack when it starts twitching.
I've always thought that DE should be a pet class tho'... it was obvious in beta3 thatwe were terribly crippled as a "pure" crafting class. And it just seemed out of balance that there was a creature pet class but no droid one...
I'm a Master DE who doesn't like the idea of a DE only droid (except to the extent that DE's are the only ones that can use the Droid aspect to the crafting module).
Droids are intelligent creations, and should be smart enough that they can take orders from any intelligent creature (which would be cool if intelligence was a factor in character creation, make a char too dumb to speak to a droid). There shouldn't be any aspect of a well created droid that would limit who could use it. A DE-only droid would really go against the point of making droids in the first place.
Rifleman get the sniper title and because of this they want to snipe. They want a high powered gun that is capable of one shot, one kill capabilites. While roleplaying a sniper, this is a perfectly good justification, but when it comes to game balance, it just doesnt work to well.
Tilen
oaktree68 wrote:
Second, I'll explain why I'm here (and why class doesnt matter). This decision isnt going to effect just you. This is going to effect probably around 10 other classes. If you are given a DE only combat droid of increased effectiveness compared to what is available to everyone, then every single artisan class is going to start screaming for one. And if classes arre really smart, they'll ask for it as a master only item they can create, I know I would. And when it comes to our justification, its simple:
"DE has one, and we are every bit as much of a crafter as they are. So why does one class get added abilities compared to others."
And you what, it really isnt going to matter which lass I am: BE, architect, weaponsmith, tailor,chef......etc This justification works for every single class out there. I mean, can you really think about a reason why this arguement isnt valid. I can't
You see, this discussion really doesnt just concern you. Depending on which way the Devs go on this one, there are going to be alot of classes effected by this. Personally, I think this is going to open a Pandora's Box if this change goes in leading to either A) everyone getting something (kinda stupid for everyone to have their own combat device). Or B) after recieving your own pet, its going to get nerfed/taken away because the devs arent going to want to give everybody something (the precedent they started with you). Either scenario isnt a real pretty picture. And personally, I find this trend of upwards balancing to be quite disturbing for the long term health of the game.
Tilen
I revel in this line of thinking. I hope against all hope that every single crafting profession gets thier own special master created item. BE should get a special creature. Tailors should get a special outfit. Chefs should get... something. Perhaps a special kitchen or something. Armorsmiths should get a really snazzy armor set. Weaponsmiths should get a cool weapon. Architects should get a special house. I would like to point to someone and say, "wow, there goes a master" when I have tags turned off.
I guess your problem is that it is combat oriented. The fundamental problem here is that the game is centered around combat. That, and droids currently have no general function other than combat. If this is your problem with it, then you are definitely asking the wrong questions.
If you really want to talk about long term health of the game,change and even "upwards balancing" is essential. This is a work in progress. I guess youthink that Bio-Engineer and Droid Engineer are finished professions. I don't think they are. Just look at how many beneficial changes have been made to your class since the game went live. I hope there are far more.
You realize that Wookiees can make thier own bowcasters, right? They can make them at character creation, given that they have all the tools and materials. They are a BADGE. They are a little special something that wookiees get that no other race gets.Now, had you and many here the chance to argue it before it went live, you would have said it was game breaking. Are Mon Calamarians cursing the developers because they can't create thier own whatchamajig? Whatever. This is precedent, which is less subjective than justification.
Don't askmom and dad not to buy your brother a present because you don't think you will get one yourself. Mom and Dad want us both to have presents.
Tarell wrote:Not all combat classes are designed to be the same so why should all crafters? The products we can make and use are unlike any of the other crafters. The closest class to a DE would be the BE in creating creatures that a CH could use. But they can produce tissues that are used in clothing and I wouldn't expect DEs to get that ability.
You compared commando to carbineer. The devs already stated that Commando and BH should have a slight advantage in combat due to the extra points they must put in. But when you compare say rifleman to pistoleer, they should be equal. Maybe not in every area exactly, but considering all their skills and abilities, they should be equal. Its called balance. So just like rifleman should be equal to pistoleers, you must measure yourself against your sister classes.
Tarell wrote:Actually it is what it's about. You're saying that because our starting skills are from a single tree we should be the same. I disagree. CH starts from scout and is often considered a combat class. It's convenient to say "that's not what this is about" but really it is as soon as you start about prerequisites as a valid argument to start looking at other elite skills and prerequisites. What do you call a BE? I would catagorize them as crafting class yet they have nothing to do with artisan. Ranger's require scout but CH's and Rangers really don't have anything in common.Actually it is what it's about. You're saying that because our starting skills are from a single tree we should be the same. I disagree. CH starts from scout and is often considered a combat class. It's convenient to say "that's not what this is about" but really it is as soon as you start about prerequisites as a valid argument to start looking at other elite skills and prerequisites. What do you call a BE? I would catagorize them as crafting class yet they have nothing to do with artisan. Ranger's require scout but CH's and Rangers really don't have anything in common.Actually it is what it's about. You're saying that because our starting skills are from a single tree we should be the same. I disagree. CH starts from scout and is often considered a combat class. It's convenient to say "that's not what this is about" but really it is as soon as you start about prerequisites as a valid argument to start looking at other elite skills and prerequisites. What do you call a BE? I would catagorize them as crafting class yet they have nothing to do with artisan. Ranger's require scout but CH's and Rangers really don't have anything in common.
We're getting into nuiances here and not core issues, but if you want to be specific, scouting is a combat support profession. In order to hit ranger or CH you are realistically eventually going to have to fight. And your right, they may not have anything to do with one another, but thats cause they branch from their main class, one goes to combat from combat support and the other goes to a higher end combat support. And you're right...A BE is a crafting class, we need the crafting line from medic.
Fidgiter wrote:
Creature Handlers DO have this privilage
* What percentage of Pets that Creature Handlers use are made by Biological Engineers?
* Those Pets that Creature Handlers use that are not created by Biological Engineers are aquired through what other class?
* The Creature Handler is fully self sufficient able to "Create" then "Use" their own pets. Instead of having to use purchased or harvester resources they find a baby and "Tame".
Droid Engineers would NOT have this prvilage even IF a Combat Droid was given to their exclusive use
To conclude: Half of your question is wrong thus the only answer could be that Droid Engineers are fully justified to join the ranks of classes that do have this priviledge
Yeah, CH does that this privilage, as they were designed to do. CH starts from combat support starting profession and moves to combat. DE starts from a crafting profession and you want them to move to a combat/crafting hybrid. Make the connection from crafter to hybrid/combat and im with you. And make it for architect/weaponsmith/armorsmith at the very least as well since they are your sister classes with the same pre-reqs. BTW, I think CH is quite possibly the biggest mistake this game ever made, and I dont really think I'm alone in that opinion.
Au-Ru_Blasterkin wrote:You mentioned being a former EQ'er... Did giving Wizards the Translocate spell line totally un-balance the whole game? No, it was an extra perk for a high-level wizard... Something no other class had.
Wizards were always the masters of TP'ing (at least in the devs eyes). Translocate fit that role. DE gets no offense, no defense, and now suddenly has a proposed combat droid for their own personal use, where did that come from?
Grimjakk wrote:Agreed... the whole point of this is that Droid Engineers will become a pet class, different than CH's, but in the same league.
Great, explain to me why Armorsmith/Arch/Weaponsmith doesnt get to make a similar leap again? Explain that and I'm behind you 100%
Zocima, I agree. Those are all good reason to WANT one. Neither is a justification for your class NEEDING one while not giving the same capabilities to your sister classes.
Sinjen wrote:I revel in this line of thinking. I hope against all hope that every single crafting profession gets thier own special master created item. BE should get a special creature. Tailors should get a special outfit. Chefs should get... something. Perhaps a special kitchen or something. Armorsmiths should get a really snazzy armor set. Weaponsmiths should get a cool weapon. Architects should get a special house. I would like to point to someone and say, "wow, there goes a master" when I have tags turned off.
Dont get me wrong here, I am in no way opposed to a "trophy" item that some of you are proposing. You want a droid that has a certain look, fine. How about an all in one that combines most of the modules u have into one droid (prob not gonna need all the crafting stations in one droid). Hey, I dont have a problem with that either, in fact its a **edit** cool idea. Give one to every crafting class. But that "trophy" item isnt what we are talking about. I'm talking about shifting your entire class ideals from a crafting class to a combat worthy class. That makes me edgy since you guys will provide the justification for others to go that route as well.
Grimjak wrote:Not if we're a pet profession. I think that our "CL Management" rating should be lower than a CH's, because our pets are easier to come by, but other than that, I don't see any issues with balance. To be "effective", a DE must have at least 4-0-0-4 in the artisan tree, which costs the same number of skill points that a CH must invest in Scout.
No, to be an effective DE, you need the same number of points as it takes to make master BE (93 I think). You CHOOSE to harvest your own resources. You CHOOSE to become master artisan. This arguement I've seen a few times here. No one forces you to use your skill points in any particular order. Dont want to get your own mats, hire someone to do it for you. Dont want MA, get someone to make the items for you. I dont even want to think of how many lines I would need to go up to be a suffiecient, effective BE. But those are choices I can either decide to/not to make. So make the same choices.
God, I hope this doesnt explode the page
Tilen
My world for an edit key. Change that BE to DE
oaktree68 wrote:
Dont get me wrong here, I am in no way opposed to a "trophy" item that some of you are proposing. You want a droid that has a certain look, fine. How about an all in one that combines most of the modules u have into one droid (prob not gonna need all the crafting stations in one droid). Hey, I dont have a problem with that either, in fact its a **edit** cool idea. Give one to every crafting class. But that "trophy" item isnt what we are talking about. I'm talking about shifting your entire class ideals from a crafting class to a combat worthy class. That makes me edgy since you guys will provide the justification for others to go that route as well.
Whoa, whoa... when did the devs say anything about "combat worthy"? Let's go back to the original so-called "plan" that was presented to us.
Item #1
Combat droids. We want to add Droid Modules that will convert many droids and give them combat abilities. ONLY Droid Engineers will be able to make and use these modules.
Okay, now where does it say that we are going to shift our profession into "combat class" gear? Do you know what a DZ-70 fugitive tracker is? It is one of our "combat droids". You see what I am getting at? First, we have no earthly clue whatsoever what this vague entry really means. Second, I never read into this that we were going to suddenly be able to travel the galaxy killing anything we come across with our super-bot. If we use the current state of our profession as any indication of what this will get us, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
You know, I have "combat abilities" right now. Having combat abilities does not equal being combat effective.Battlemaster means I am a 0/4/3/3 swordsman. That doesn't get me diddly-squat in PvP, and barely gets me by in PvE. I think everyone is reading a lot into this that isn't really there.
Tilen