Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...
Icarus-6 wrote:
I have read the post. What the Devs have said, I believe,is that they aren't going to drop new certificates into any established classes. This proposal does just that. Perhaps it requires skills in an area unrelated to the class but it is still just giving one class more abilities.
This proposal requires DEs who want to be able to control combat droids. One variant in particular requires lots of combat experience which is hard to get. DEs will see a benefit, but on the whole I think its meritous in light of the skill points or time needed to get master artisan or to get a master artisan to sell components or a schematic.
Non-DEs have to spend the exact skillpoints that a 0044 CH has to spend to get the same pet levels.
Edit: Also remember that the devs were originally going to put the certs into the DE tree. CH+BE=DE remember? Another reason why objecting on the grounds of that the devs might do is premature.
Whether it requires DEs to gain combat experience or not is irrelevant to my point. My point is simply that Devs have said they aren't going to drop new certs into existing classes. Your proposal does that. No matter how much you want to try to argue otherwise by speaking of other requirements the fact is that your proposal places new certificates under the DE tree.
Certainly the Devs might change their mind on this point. In fact I can make substantive arguments that it is inevitable that new certs will be placed in existing trees, whether directly or through some de facto method. Certainly this isn't even my main difficulty with the proposal. All I am doing is pointing out that this proposal is contrary to what the Devs have stated they will allow and I think that rallying everyone behind the idea without first dealing with this issue or at least considering it is not the best course of action.
Icarus-6 wrote:
You are still talking about having a skill (control level 15 droid, or whatever) that is blocked because you do not have a different box filled. The comparison with creatures greater than level 10 is fallacious. You cannot command them because you lack the skill. That skill is based upon the completion of one specific skill box, though admittedly you might need to complete other boxes before being allowed to complete that box.
I think we're saying the same thing here. My point was that pets can only be called depending on what skill boxes you have. Under this proposal, you have to have combat skills in order to use the droids. No droids, no combat skills.
No. We are not saying the same thing. Your proposal is to have a skill that cannot be used when you learn it unless you purchase a separate skill box. You gain the skill with Refinement-1 but cannot use it because you lack Polearms-4 (or another appropriate combat skill). There is no skill like this currently in the game and adding such a skill makes the skill tree very unwieldy and cumbersome. It is not even a natural extension of how the current skill tree works, like third tier skills would be.
Icarus-6 wrote:
As a counter, what advantage does your proposal give over the concept of a Droid Commander? Characters who wish to pursue controlling droids can simply spend points there. Characters who want to be pure crafters don't have to. People who wish to be a hybrid and both craft and command droids can do that as well by simply buying parts of both skill trees or even the entire trees if they desire.
As mentioned above. There were three options:
1. Certs for everyone 2. DE Hybrid 3. Droid Handler
Everyone voted fro #1. The devs sought to impose #3 but we rejected it. The advantage of this proposal is that its a compromise and if implemented will give us combat droids to sell. No one wants DH. Without some type of skill-based investment, the devs won't bite. This proposal allows people do exactly what you suggest.
First off, as many of the current posts may show there are people who want DH and more than a few. Claims that no one wants it is pure demagoguery. Secondly, unless you can convince the Devs to alter their stance against placing new certs in existing characters there is simply no other alternative. Devs are saying that droids beyond level 10 need certs that do not currently exist. No existing classes will be given new certs. Therefore the only people who will be able to use the new droids are a new class. Whether that class is called Droid Handler, Droid Commander, or Droid Babysitter is irrelevant. Yes, the Devs have completely stacked the deck.
Now if you wish to change this position I would suggest you address it directly. Generating ideas that violate it in the hopes that the Devs will think the idea so cool that they are going to throw away the rules they have laid down seems a bad way to go.
Characters who wish to pursue controlling droids can simply spend points there. Characters who want to be pure crafters don't have to. People who wish to be a hybrid and both craft and command droids can do that as well by simply buying parts of both skill trees or even the entire trees if they desire.
Join hands with us, Icarus. Support this proposal! If the devs say no, fine. But saying no to each other in anticipation of what the devs might say is killing the bird before it can fly. Fly with us!
I'm sorry. You asked what people think. You didn't ask for everyone who thought it was a wonderful idea with a good chance of success to tell you what they thought. You claim that pointing out flaws in your proposal is killing the bird before it can fly. I am telling you that I'm pretty sure this bird can't fly, at least not today. I'm also stating why. I could be wrong, I completely admit that, but from my perspective I am standing here looking at the weight to thrust ratio of your bird and pointing out that most likely you're going to crash on the rocks below. You on the other hand seem to be arguing that the bird will fly because it's pretty and people like it.
Just to be clear, I am not trying to kill the bird. I am saying it seems heavy and suggesting you either cut some weight or get more thrust. I think there is a possibility your bird can eventually fly but not without some changes.
(editted to fix a minor typo and change 'current exist' to 'currently exist')
Message Edited by Icarus-6 on 03-05-2004 04:41 PM
Thanks for your feedback. I'll add a "no" to the list.
Icarus-6 wrote:
Just to be clear, I am not trying to kill the bird. I am saying it seems heavy and suggesting you either cut some weight or get more thrust. I think there is a possibility your bird can eventually fly but not without some changes.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Under my proposal, DEs who care only for crafting may do so and prograss as if combat droids did not exist. Hybrid-minded DEs would get some combat droids to play with AND DE dabblers would get +35 in droid lvls and would also make up a substantial marker that both crafter and hybrid DEs couls sell to.
Ellewen wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Under my proposal, DEs who care only for crafting may do so and prograss as if combat droids did not exist. Hybrid-minded DEs would get some combat droids to play with AND DE dabblers would get +35 in droid lvls and would also make up a substantial marker that both crafter and hybrid DEs couls sell to.
But you forget, The DEs who only want us to be a crafting profession, have won the toss and will not stand for this proposal. They want it thier way or no way. SOE has already sided with them. So this debate was over and decissions made, before youstarted this thread.
I see no point in voting on anything here, as SOE does what it wants, without reguard to our interests. Thats been proven over the past year. So there realy is no point. This is all just talk. Sorry.
Other than that... I like some of what you say and it is fun to make-believe sometimes.
Cheers....
I'll not this as a yes.
The Droiddreamer is very good at make-believe.
There has been little "pure crafter" objections so far. Read the posts!
Agreed. Even my points are not based at all from a 'pure crafter' perspective. The idea of requiring combat skills helps to avoid that argument.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...
There has been little "pure crafter" objections so far. Read the posts!
Has my vote and as it was the Devs first proposal, most of the work was probably done already.
Sodan,
The outlay of the skill tree changes would go to the heart of how successful a hybrid could be, in relation to making the combat DE/handler and 'pure crafter' camps happy. In any matter of arbitration, it usually ends up being the plan that gives smoe to each party, and takes away from some from each party, that's the best solution.
The issue is how to rearrange the skill tree such that:
- it has appropriate skill/time 'cost' to make the devs happy with this kind of compromise, as relates to balance.
- it would need to address concerns on both primary (may we say only two) playstyles for DE: pure crafter/industrialistand the 'combat DE', such that each camp considered the plan a good/fair workable compromise.
- it would need to address the possible future growth of droid modules and features (we have to at least assume this could be the case. I like to leave all options on the table).
- it would need to be implemented to prevent much-feared uber-templates that might occur from those that take advantage of such things in the extreme (and become branded "exploiter").
- It would need to be fun, challenging and worthwhile.
These aren't even all the items I can think of...but some. Do you feel like your proposal stands up to such?
If so, I would hope that the devs might consider the possibility and practicality of this (and actually work WITH us to development to the best end of all DEs).
/bow
Respectfully,
Apophis23 wrote:
I really like the idea. Of course it would have to be seen how the market will react to this and how much the servers will be flooded with cheap droids. Then again the last time I checked there was no real market for droids anyway...
And if the devs actually get the experimentation to work it will mean that a MDE created droid will still be much better than anything a dabbler will be able to make. Hybrids will also not have the time to find the best resources available, so that gives the dedicated droid engineers an edge.
All in all I wish you would have posted this about 2-3 months ago.
Congrats on a solid proposal.
I think the reason this wouldn't have flown 2-3 months ago is we still wanted combat droids for everyone. Today, the devs have made it particularly clear that nothing better than the probot will be available without extra skillpont expenditure. Plus, there isn't much happening on the utility front.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Sodan,
The outlay of the skill tree changes would go to the heart of how successful a hybrid could be, in relation to making the combat DE/handler and 'pure crafter' camps happy. In any matter of arbitration, it usually ends up being the plan that gives smoe to each party, and takes away from some from each party, that's the best solution.
The issue is how to rearrange the skill tree such that:
- it has appropriate skill/time 'cost' to make the devs happy with this kind of compromise, as relates to balance.
- it would need to address concerns on both primary (may we say only two) playstyles for DE: pure crafter/industrialistand the 'combat DE', such that each camp considered the plan a good/fair workable compromise.
- it would need to address the possible future growth of droid modules and features (we have to at least assume this could be the case. I like to leave all options on the table).
- it would need to be implemented to prevent much-feared uber-templates that might occur from those that take advantage of such things in the extreme (and become branded "exploiter").
- It would need to be fun, challenging and worthwhile.
These aren't even all the items I can think of...but some. Do you feel like your proposal stands up to such?
If so, I would hope that the devs might consider the possibility and practicality of this (and actually work WITH us to development to the best end of all DEs).
I think so definitely. Here's why:
- For dabbler/uber tempalte purposes, this plan is no different than if the dabbler/uber templatist chose 0044 CH for +36 lvl pets. The skill point cost is the same. Not to mention that they have to -- lol -- craft their way there, rather than scout there way there. But sucha brainy dabbler deserves combat droids.
- It allows crafter DEs to craft their way to MDE without firing a single shot
- It allows combat-oriented DEs to get droid certs if they put the time and skillpoint cost in to get the combat tree.
- There is no "exploit" here. If getting 0044 CH is an exploit, then it is an exploit, but for dabbler purposes its the same.
- In terms of time, this proposal is particularly balanced if ranged weapon support 4 (0004 Marksman) is the pre-requisite for taking advantade of the combat droids fount in 0040 DE. It takes 22,000 Combat Exp to get. For those who do not know, Combat Exp is only 10% of the weapon exp you get. So if you gain 4,000 Pistol Exp, you only get 400 Combat Exp. 220,000 Combat Exp is not a breeze to get. It takes a LOT of time.
Some benefit if conferred upon DEs by this proposal. In light of the stringent dependencies that are imposed upon the DE profession, I think this benefit is appropriate. As an MDE you are either a Master Artisan, or you spend lots of time and money getting custom made schematics or buying master artisan components. (For a schematic you need to find a MA, give them your resources, have them make the schematic, then get the resources and schematic back and pay up. Not terribly hard, but if master Artisans are not always findable/willing and if you're on a deadline it really sucks. ) Most DEs, not all DEs, are Master Artisans.
Master Artisan costs 77 skill points. Master Droid Engineer costs 92. if you add those points up that's 169 skillpoints and zero pet lvls (with the ability to make cool droids). By comparison, Master CH costs 144 and gives you +70 pet lvls. There has to be some accoutn given to out depenency on MA. Even if we only account for half of the skill point cost of MA -- to reflect that is is NOT a requirement -- that's still a 130 skill point cost, rounding down. 130 skill points is enough to purchase far more than 25-30 pet lvls as proposed herein.
Finally, lets not forget all the skills that CHs get for the points they spend: taming, terrain negociation, creature to-hit bonuses, burst run efficieny, creature harvesting, etc. By comparison, this proposal only offers +25-35 droid/pet lvls and +4 droid/pet storage.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
That would be fine with me. Ranged Support requires combatr exp which is harder to get, but that's ok. There is no similar skill tree for brawler however. I purposefully left the proposal open regarding which trere shoudl be required -- the devs can decide that or make it any of the trees. The point is the expenditure of points.
Exactly. The premise for your original proposal was to balance the pet levels with CH's equivalent expenditure of skillpoints. I like it that way. I also am biased a bit, because I prefer brawler.
But I like the ranged support idea since it reeks of balance -- combat exp is a b*tch to get; much harder than say pistol exp.
This, then, would no longer be balanced. Keep in mind that the CH has to get scouting experience. I know it is easy to browbeat yourself and do it in the name of "balance", but just keep in mind what it is you are balancing.
It almost goes without saying, but the CH is not in and of itself a combat profession. You can master CH without having any combat skills of your own, but it would be like mastering DE withouthaving Master Artisan, or worse. It is much faster and easier to gather the implicated requirements of some combat profession when persuing the CH. My point, however, is that you can master CH without picking up a gun or a melee weapon. When talking about what is balanced, a lot of people aren't keeping this very important point in mind. The primary function of CH is combat. However, they don't have any more combat requirements than we do.
If I were being my ordinary onery self, I would say that Survey IVshould bethe additional prerequisite. But for the sake of buying into this proposal, I will stand behind your original idea andsupport either a brawler or a marksman prerequisite.
As far as them being illegal, I like that idea too. However, lets forget about scanning and just make it so that the droid, when out, is overt to imperials and all police forces. You can either buy a license with faction points or have a smuggler create you a fake license (or slice the droid for a temporary license). The whole "scan" thing isn't really working anyway.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Drashk, Kollos, Audio, EricTheGreat: Can I have your feedback, pls?
Lol Sodan, what does a girl have to do to get on the Executive DE list ?
J/K ignore this post *chuckle*
No, on a more serious note...we DO need to have those pillars of the establishment onboard with this, or stating amendments they would like. Please guys, speak up. In this I an definitely not kidding.
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-05-2004 07:25 PM
/bow
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Lol Sodan, what does a girl have to do to get on the Executive DE list ?
You don't want to know, Shian......you don't want to know.
No, on a more serious note...we DO need to have those pillars of the establishment onboard with this, or stating amendments they would like. Please guys, speak up. In this I an definitely not kidding.
I like this as much (as a proposal worth tweaking and doing) that it's on par with Drashk's Cert. Compromise that he put together (post-DH announcement).
Respectfully,