Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Sodan...I'll have to wait to get home, but I'm pretty sure that the stims are in the "construction techniques" tree, so making droids available to a 0-0-4-4 would still require them to be 0-4-4-4 to make good stims.
Great idea. I think that if we can't get what we all really wanted (droid certs so we can sell them to everyone) this is a good suitable compromise. Hopefully we can all get behind it and make it happen.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/darktroopers/index.html
TheRealTK421 wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, Dark Troopers are NOT "droids". They are basically stormtroopers in better (more powerful) outfits.
duncje wrote:
The Empire used Dark Troopers (pretty high powered droids) just after the Battle of Yavin, which fits in with this game's time period.
One thingis for certain. And that is "The combat balance" is taking place even as we discuss this issue. Dally too long, andwe will get the response that they can not change the balance that has been developed, thereby eliminating chance to get this or any change included.
So I vote yes, for this idea. I believe it covers most of the major issues for the majority of players. Which is the best that can be hoped for.
The thing that defeated us in Viet Nam was not having a plan for winning. Learn from history 
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Alright, you guys/gals that regularly correspond with the devs: pls shoot them a PM so they can read this thread. I think its a good compromise proposal for Publish 8 and a lot of people agree. Lets get some red names in here and see what they say.
Developers? They seem to have abandoned us after yesterday. I would say 'Don't blame them,' but I do. We're the paying customers, the organization they work for has made certain representations about customer service, and they are not living up to them inthe last few weeks.
Normally not a big deal.Right in the middle of 'our time' losing communication with the red-names except for some minimal (and flame-generating) posts? Big deal.
duncje wrote:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/darktroopers/index.html
TheRealTK421 wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, Dark Troopers are NOT "droids". They are basically stormtroopers in better (more powerful) outfits.
duncje wrote:
The Empire used Dark Troopers (pretty high powered droids) just after the Battle of Yavin, which fits in with this game's time period.
I like most anything that gets us combat droids. But my comments on this.
I think requiring a seperate combat skill, limits one ability to be who they want.
The Idea of a DE that cant fight his way outta a paper bag. But can protect themselves with powerfull droids.
I think your using the combat tree requirement, to increase the skill cost . So, you can have a powerfull cert.
The plan linked to in my sig, costs 140 points for max cert. Is artisan/crafter friendly, for those who's skillpoints have no combat 'checkers' in them. And especially friendly to DEs who certainly SHOULD! be able to operate the droids they make.
I have thought carefully. And the only possible draw back from the sig plan, is that it does make it difficult for a non DE to get a max cert and be a combat only droid commander. But I think a 'droid' commander could get the 'DC' branch and use the points on distributed droid cert elsewhere to better combat effect.
Um the other thing is increasing the number or droids allowedin data pad would need a total storage limit in data pad cap. Like your inventory caps no matter how many pouches you carry.
The 43 points it costs to get master over the 'DC' branch would buy more combat power in other fields. Its only a little perc for DEs. same with the artisan box. you could even limit the max droid level available to the max 'DC' branch cert. then the MAs and MDEs would only benifit from more droids out. more total level.
My criteria for my preference are.
- DEs should find it easy to use thier own droids. Without learning things foriegn to thier proffession.
- It would also be nice for this 'cert' to be friendly to crafting types. Who have no combat 'checkers'. I say crafting types as opposed to BEs and Entertainers only because the artisan crafts are more intuitively 'tinkering like' and gadget like, or things that droid minded people are closer to.
A car mechanic might no automatically be a good race car driver. But a race care driver better know somthing about the car they drive. Building a droid and using it are is a much closer relationship.
Like a computer builder/designer. I doubt you can find a computer designer thats not also an expert computer user. You in fact have to know what using a computer is like, to build a good one.
Im in favor on 'The Answer' as stated, or if nessissary a seperate 'DC' proffession striaght off artisan E4 like DE. But the way our 'stim packs' are direct creature pet counterpart clones, Im not optimistic that a 'DC' proffession will be full of different droidy goodness.
I see my cert in 'the plan' to be a straight 'use' cert. no fancy attack moves, or no new ones anyway. The max level allowances could allow any type of new droid with any type of new commands/abilities, including high power non combat droids.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Edit: Alternately, the max droid lvls would be somewhere between 25-35 to account for droid armor resists.
Edited to add: The max CL lvl for combat droids would be somewhere between 25-35 to account for droid armor. If comperable CL 35 CH pets have comperable armor, then the CL would remain 35 for droids. If droids have better armor, the CL would be adjusted down to 25.
I don't think this is necessary - creature pets can be buffed, combat droids get better armor and require batteries. To me, this is all the balance you need.
Message Edited by Alacrity on 03-05-2004 01:48 PM
Yep, I think the final call should be made by the devs. CL 25 to 35 is a good compromise dependign on the factors discussed: armor, HAM, buffs, etc.
Alacrity wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Edit: Alternately, the max droid lvls would be somewhere between 25-35 to account for droid armor resists.
Edited to add: The max CL lvl for combat droids would be somewhere between 25-35 to account for droid armor. If comperable CL 35 CH pets have comperable armor, then the CL would remain 35 for droids. If droids have better armor, the CL would be adjusted down to 25.
I don't think this is necessary - creature pets can be buffed, combat droids get better armor and require batteries. To me, this is all the balance you need.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote: Replies below. But a question first. Apart from these two concerns, do you have a problem with the proposal?
Icarus-6 wrote:
There are two primary problems that I see with this proposal:
The first is that there are no other skills in the game where you can acquirea skill but cannot use it until you've gained some other skill. Sure, there are plenty of skills where you can't acquire them until you've acquired the ones below, but nothing to my knowledge where you have completed a box, earned a skill, and cannot use it because you haven't completed a different box. My guess is that the current code doesn't support such a thing and my feeling is that the developers won't want to make either the code or the game system support such a thing.
As I mentioned above, the CURRENT system supports only allowing players to call pets for which they actually have the skills. Under this proposal, the system only has to "block" players from using combat droids at the time the droid is called. Have you tried pulling out your pre-CH-nerf CL 10+ pets? It won't let you if you do not have the pet lvls through skills.
You are still talking about having a skill (control level 15 droid, or whatever) that is blocked because you do not have a different box filled. The comparison with creatures greater than level 10 is fallacious. You cannot command them because you lack the skill. That skill is based upon the completion of one specific skill box, though admittedly you might need to complete other boxes before being allowed to complete that box.
...
Icarus-6 wrote:
The second problem I see with this is that it still just gives certs to a group of people which the Devs say they don't want to do. Granted, it is no longer DEs. Now it is DEs with a level 4 in a basic combat skill.
No. Re-read the proposal. DEs would only be able to use the combat droids IF they had the required combat skills.
I have read the post. What the Devs have said, I believe,is that they aren't going to drop new certificates into any established classes. This proposal does just that. Perhaps it requires skills in an area unrelated to the class but it is still just giving one class more abilities.
Please realize I'm not talking about whether that's good or bad. I'm just saying this is what the Devs have said and this is how it affects your proposal.
As for what I think of the proposal, it's interesting but I feel a little overly complicated. The main reason for that would come from the skills you can possess but can't use because you lack a combat skill. It is just extremely cumbersome and is not matched by any other skills in the game.
As a counter, what advantage does your proposal give over the concept of a Droid Commander? Characters who wish to pursue controlling droids can simply spend points there. Characters who want to be pure crafters don't have to. People who wish to be a hybrid and both craft and command droids can do that as well by simply buying parts of both skill trees or even the entire trees if they desire.
I'm going to reply to your substantive points in kind, Icarus. You are well within your right to make them. if you are opposed to this idea, I suggest you state -- "no I do not want this proposal implemented". If you support it, then I suggest you support it and leave it to the devs to say what they cannot or will not do.
You are well within your right to make these points, but note how many supporting voices there are here. If we all get behind this idea, we could wind up with a really good publish in Publish 8. Ask yourself what the alternative is.
Before you reply, read this thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=68276
Do you get me?
Icarus-6 wrote:
I have read the post. What the Devs have said, I believe,is that they aren't going to drop new certificates into any established classes. This proposal does just that. Perhaps it requires skills in an area unrelated to the class but it is still just giving one class more abilities.
This proposal requires DEs who want to be able to control combat droids. One variant in particular requires lots of combat experience which is hard to get. DEs will see a benefit, but on the whole I think its meritous in light of the skill points or time needed to get master artisan or to get a master artisan to sell components or a schematic.
Non-DEs have to spend the exact skillpoints that a 0044 CH has to spend to get the same pet levels.
Edit: Also remember that the devs were originally going to put the certs into the DE tree. CH+BE=DE remember? Another reason why objecting on the grounds of that the devs might do is premature.
I think we're saying the same thing here. My point was that pets can only be called depending on what skill boxes you have. Under this proposal, you have to have combat skills in order to use the droids. No droids, no combat skills.
Icarus-6 wrote:
You are still talking about having a skill (control level 15 droid, or whatever) that is blocked because you do not have a different box filled. The comparison with creatures greater than level 10 is fallacious. You cannot command them because you lack the skill. That skill is based upon the completion of one specific skill box, though admittedly you might need to complete other boxes before being allowed to complete that box.
Icarus-6 wrote:
As a counter, what advantage does your proposal give over the concept of a Droid Commander? Characters who wish to pursue controlling droids can simply spend points there. Characters who want to be pure crafters don't have to. People who wish to be a hybrid and both craft and command droids can do that as well by simply buying parts of both skill trees or even the entire trees if they desire.
As mentioned above. There were three options:
1. Certs for everyone 2. DE Hybrid 3. Droid Handler
Everyone voted fro #1. The devs sought to impose #3 but we rejected it. The advantage of this proposal is that its a compromise and if implemented will give us combat droids to sell. No one wants DH. Without some type of skill-based investment, the devs won't bite. This proposal allows people do exactly what you suggest:
Characters who wish to pursue controlling droids can simply spend points there. Characters who want to be pure crafters don't have to. People who wish to be a hybrid and both craft and command droids can do that as well by simply buying parts of both skill trees or even the entire trees if they desire.
Join hands with us, Icarus. Support this proposal! If the devs say no, fine. But saying no to each other in anticipation of what the devs might say is killing the bird before it can fly. Fly with us!
Message Edited by Sodan-droiddreamer on 03-05-2004 03:34 PM
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Drashk, Kollos, Audio, EricTheGreat: Can I have your feedback, pls?
I'd like to know what y'all think as well. And Rho, as well.
And Drashk, if you are reading this, can you point a Dev here and see if this is even possible?
Yep, all feedback is welcome.
duncje wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Drashk, Kollos, Audio, EricTheGreat: Can I have your feedback, pls?
I'd like to know what y'all think as well. And Rho, as well.
And Drashk, if you are reading this, can you point a Dev here and see if this is even possible?