Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)

Malitevv
Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:05 pm
#79






Straker_Atrella wrote:



The amount of resources we can harvest is all that gives new crafters a chance. If I drop 18 harvestors (I own 3 accounts,) on a good fibro, and harvest 1 million units, I am good for a while. I wont be buying any from vendors, or auctions. However, once that resource is gone, the only way new players can get it, is to buy it. Since all the "big" crafters harvested a lot, demand wont be that high, so they can afford it.


If the amount of rsources we can harvest is nerfed. Costs for inorganic resources will sail through the roof, rivaling scout resources. If I'm out of fibro, I'll break myself buying more, I WILL buy from vendors then, I'll bid on auctions. All "big" crafter will be doing this, not only can new players not compete with older more established players, but how can a DE compete against an AS or WS for our resources we share in common?


The sheer amount of inorganic resources we can harvest is all that keeps prices low and allows new crafters a chance.





this is very true. the established crafters do have an advantage because they have more resources at their disposal, but if you remove what LonelyGhost called the "glut" of resources in the market, it's just going to drive the price of all those resources up. The established crafters will still have more resources at their disposal because they willstill be able to buythem from others. And this will just make it even harder on the crafters who aren't established yet because they won't be able to afford the resources.


complaints about the established crafters having too many resources are a red herring. there is nothing stopping a new player from accumulating the same resources for themselves. lot trades are not benefiting these established crafters one bit in this respect. lot trades enable players to mine far more than they will ever need. but all this really does is make it so there are more resources for the new crafters to buy on the market and thereby drives resource prices down.


lot traders are more often than not resource sellers or hoarders. the massive amount of resources they get are not really helping them craft more because it just gives them more resources than they need. and even so, none of that actually hurts the crafters that don't lot trade. I don't lot trade. I have 7 harvesters and 3 factories and I do just fine, and even with just those 7 harvesters I have far more resources than I need (I've many millions of quality resources sitting in storage and I accumulated all of it with just 7 harvesters.


Actually, the more I think about this the more I think that complaining that factories hurt the hand-crafter is like complaining that harvesters hurt the player the player that samples resources by hand. There really is no fundamental difference between a factory and a harvester in terms of what function it serves. The harvester lets me mine more. The factory lets me craft more. So what?



---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot
babyblue_d
Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:46 pm
#80






Malitevv wrote:





LonelyGhost wrote:



I'm suprised more people with NO crafting skills at all aren't full-time crafters. All they need an a crafter willing to sell them schematics, and they can make everything we can make with NO SKILL at all.




are you really surprised by this? the list of reasons that this is completely impractical is so long its silly.





a friend of mine and me have a deal he makes my EMM and GPU in trade I sell him the resoses cheep he is a smugler and not a crafter but has a deal worked out with a master artisan

Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-10-2004 06:46 PM




Deloo Droid Works
Deloo Pabet, Master Droid Engineer Since 8/03, 2535 6446 Tatooine in the Corprate Sector
\\ 12 Point Master Artisan || 11 Point Droid Engineer || Force Crafter || Master Shipwright //

::UPS What can brown do for you? ::UPS Price Guide::DC Proposal 2.0::

Straker_Atrella
Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:46 pm
#81

Well I hate posting beforeI read a whole thread, but if I don't I tend to forget points. Now I have readi t all, you guys posted a lot today.


I'm with Mal, I'm not totally against the thought of Hand Crafting getting some love, I don't really think it is needed, but if done correctly, I would sign on. I was mostly upset about the assumptions and anti "industrialist" trend that this idea launched.


First let me say...

I hate lot traders, they are not as the game was designed, this should be fixed. Yet it is far to easy to assume that every successfull crafter does lot trades, or exploits the game in some fashion. Yes I have 3 accounts, and access to my brothers 2 if I want them. I pay real life Money for these lots. You can do it, any other new crafter can do it. Does it give me an edge? Certainly, yet I PAY for that edge.


What disturbs me when I hear "some" (not really people here,) talking about to many resources, to many factories, or whatever, it seems like they want to be equal with their one account. Which honestly is ok. Your one account Hand Crafted Probot is just as good as my 3 account Factory Probot. The quality is the same, yet what my extra accounts give me is more storage, more resources, and more room to place factories. People seem to hate that edge, they want us to be equal. We can be. Buy another account. That seems harsh, but it isn't meant to be.


Earlier in the thread, somebody seemed to be complaining that an Archetect had a vendor with multiple of EVERY item on it. From Furniture to City Halls. Wow, that's nice. Do you have any clue the amount of WORK that takes? Resources, factories, crafting, or whatever. Obviously he uses factories (which take 2 lots btw,) but even still, that is a ton of work.


Guess what, anybody can do it. Sure he has a good reputation, sure you would haveto work really hard to get yours astocked like his, but eventually, you will have people coming to yours as well, because yours is IDENTICAL to his. You simply need to put in the hard work and dedication.


It's hard to accept that perhaps a crafter is more successful simply because he works / plays more. It's far easier to point to factories, harvestors, or lots swaps. When the reality is all it takes is work. This weekend, I would love to gind xp for converting on my combat character, yetI have already set it aside for Droids. I refuse to let my vendors suffer, probably a tad on the obsessive compulsive side actually. Yet I worked hard to build a decent rep, I will not jeopardize that.


Now away from the evil industrialists side of this thread. Back to hand crafting.


If the bonus happens every time, say 115 med mods, and not 110. I will simply hand craft every one. Over time, my vendor will be filled with them as well. It iwll seriously annoy me having to spend even more time doing it, but I will do it. I pride myself on making the best droids possible, pride in my droids, plus a reputation. I'll simply hand craft more. My old customers will return to me for a newer version.


If the chance is random, and very low, such as 1/100. I'll probably do both. The hand crafting as a hobby. So I will get the best of both worlds.


I still really think this idea isn't needed. It really is the same as somebody wanting Noob weapons to have a 1/1000 chance of an instant kill. Advanced and lower versions of everything exist already, hand crafting is simplya lower form of crafting.


I think the perfect solution really is just more loot items to add to things.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Droid Vendor at Resurection near Theed on Naboo -5757 6222. Both carry a wide variety of maxed Droids, I also carry every type of Droid and Droid supply.

*Straker Atrella: Dark Jedi * Atrella's Wench: Master Droid Engineer / Artisan / Scout / Merchant * Dark Vortex: Ranger / Rifleman * Havana:Musician / Dancer / Image Design * Enigmatica : Doctor / Swordsman* CrazyEyes: Role playing BH.
babyblue_d
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:31 pm
#82






Malitevv wrote:



On this notion of the so-called industrialist that drives the small time crafters out of the market, can anybody provide any evidence that this is actually true? I personally think it's not true.





awile back UPS had 3 master smuglers and 1 mill in the guild bank when they desided to control the muon gold market .. ploped down some haves and slent the mill on resoesess once this was done all that was needed was some vedors each guild member was a assined a planet or two thay stocked vedors that were barowed and filled the bazzar on every planet .. this put more than a few smuglers out of bisness want to read about it?


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Intrepid&message.id=248980


after a quitefew players complaned about it in emails to kaosfett (our guild leader) UPS stoped suplying all the planets and settled in to tatooine .. we are still one of the bigest & cheepest supplyers of muon gold on intrepid. we single handedly brought the avrige price form 7-8k to 4-5k. but this is whyI KNOW markets can be controled and players can be forsed out


BTW this venture repayed the guild bank and put VERY nice sums of cash in the smuglers pockets

Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-10-2004 07:39 PM




Deloo Droid Works
Deloo Pabet, Master Droid Engineer Since 8/03, 2535 6446 Tatooine in the Corprate Sector
\\ 12 Point Master Artisan || 11 Point Droid Engineer || Force Crafter || Master Shipwright //

::UPS What can brown do for you? ::UPS Price Guide::DC Proposal 2.0::

Malitevv
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:39 pm
#83






babyblue_d wrote:






Malitevv wrote:





LonelyGhost wrote:



I'm suprised more people with NO crafting skills at all aren't full-time crafters. All they need an a crafter willing to sell them schematics, and they can make everything we can make with NO SKILL at all.




are you really surprised by this? the list of reasons that this is completely impractical is so long its silly.





a friend of mine and me have a deal he makes my EMM and GPU in trade I sell him the resoses cheep he is a smugler and not a crafter but has a deal worked out with a master artisan


Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-10-2004 06:46 PM





of course. lots of people do that. but making a deal to get a schematic for a basic component is a thousand times easier than trying to craft Advanced R3 droids at a factory by buying manufacturing schematics from a DE. you'd have to buy schematics for all the basicsub-components. then give copies of all the sub-components and all the resource used to a DE to have him make a schematic for all the second level sub-components, then do the the same thing for the next level of sub-components, etc. it would be insane.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot
babyblue_d
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:44 pm
#84






Malitevv wrote:


of course. lots of people do that. but making a deal to get a schematic for a basic component is a thousand times easier than trying to craft Advanced R3 droids at a factory by buying manufacturing schematics from a DE. you'd have to buy schematics for all the basicsub-components. then give copies of all the sub-components and all the resource used to a DE to have him make a schematic for all the second level sub-components, then do the the same thing for the next level of sub-components, etc. it would be insane.




yes I agree .. but i was just sighting a example of it happing small deal true but it could be happining on the larger scales .. still if it is its obvislily not a problem for the rest of us


still you got to give the "non crafter" crafters cedit now that hast to be hard






Deloo Droid Works
Deloo Pabet, Master Droid Engineer Since 8/03, 2535 6446 Tatooine in the Corprate Sector
\\ 12 Point Master Artisan || 11 Point Droid Engineer || Force Crafter || Master Shipwright //

::UPS What can brown do for you? ::UPS Price Guide::DC Proposal 2.0::

Malitevv
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:52 pm
#85






babyblue_d wrote:






Malitevv wrote:



On this notion of the so-called industrialist that drives the small time crafters out of the market, can anybody provide any evidence that this is actually true? I personally think it's not true.





awile back UPS had 3 master smuglers and 1 mill in the guild bank when they desided to control the muon gold market .. ploped down some haves and slent the mill on resoesess once this was done all that was needed was some vedors each guild member was a assined a planet or two thay stocked vedors that were barowed and filled the bazzar on every planet .. this put more than a few smuglers out of bisness want to read about it?


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Intrepid&message.id=248980


after a quitefew players complaned about it in emails to kaosfett (our guild leader) UPS stoped suplying all the planets and settled in to tatooine .. we are still one of the bigest & cheepest supplyers of muon gold on intrepid. we single handedly brought the avrige price form 7-8k to 4-5k. but this is whyI KNOW markets can be controled and players can be forsed out


BTW this venture repayed the guild bank and put VERY nice sums of cash in the smuglers pockets


Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-10-2004 07:39 PM




I don't see one bit of evidence there that they actually controlled the market for anything. I saw comments from people saying the vendors were empty and asking for them to be restocked, which means any other smuggler could have placed a vendor right next door and sold their own muon. /shrug. people complain all the time. the fact that they did so doesn't mean the thing they were complaining about was actually true.


I'm not sure what your notion of making a lot of money is. you said they slapped a million down as though that is a big deal...?


I slapped 10 million down buying av-21 parts a few months ago and resold the finished speedersat a nice profit, converted that 10 million to 20 million in two weeks. /shrug Not a big deal actually. even that is small time really. it sounds like you are talking about something that was considerably smaller scale.


Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-10-2004 07:54 PM



---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot
babyblue_d
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:05 pm
#86






Malitevv wrote:



I don't see one bit of evidence there that they actually controlled the market for anything.





Willbur Wright wrote:

Ahhhh.... So this is the reason I haven't been making any sales on spice scince I got spices IV.....






I saw comments from people saying the vendors were empty and asking for them to be restocked, which means any other smuggler could have placed a vendor right next door and sold their own muon. /shrug.no the guild leader said it sold out and wasalready restocked none of the players said thay coulnt find it when thay needed it. we were stocking it the moment it sold out


people complain all the time. the fact that they did so doesn't mean the thing they were complaining about was actually true.I'm not sure what your notion of making a lot of money is. you said they slapped a million down as though that is a big deal...?


I slapped 10 million down buying av-21 parts a few months ago and resold the finished speedersat a nice profit, converted that 10 million to 20 million in two weeks. /shrug Not a big deal actually. even that is small time really. it sounds like you are talking about something that was considerably smaller scale.


well the cash in not imprtant and no 1 mill is not much ..but the guild made it back at lest 5-6 fold in that2 month span and the customeres we made then are still coming to tat to get the goods so its the gift that keeps giveing. not much no but for the work we put in it was like free money



Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-10-200407:54 PM










Deloo Droid Works
Deloo Pabet, Master Droid Engineer Since 8/03, 2535 6446 Tatooine in the Corprate Sector
\\ 12 Point Master Artisan || 11 Point Droid Engineer || Force Crafter || Master Shipwright //

::UPS What can brown do for you? ::UPS Price Guide::DC Proposal 2.0::

Jenden
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:13 pm
#87

Ok, few random comments...


On the idea that factory crafting takes more work than hand crafting.... I beg to differ. I've done a good deal of factory crafting and I've done a good deal of hand crafting, and I'd say hand crafting is more difficult/time consuming. The inventory space and management alone is insane, add on the time taken to make the droids (time you are actively making them and can't do other things), the on-demand style service it tends to be coupled with also takes time/effort, etc... Not saying that factory crafting is simple, but they're both difficult in their own way.


On to the idea that if you could make a 115 medical module no one would by the 110.... if this is the case then why do any weaponsmiths make anything but krayt guns, or whatever loot drop weapons/armor. Its because there's more demand than there is supply. People either don't have the patience or money to get these more rare items, so they settle for what they can get. In the same way, people who had the money/patience to get a hand crafted item would, those who didn't wouldn't. You're not going to see the market flooded with these hand crafted items since they take so much more time/effort to produce. Yes, this doesn't work as well with droids since they don't have the same kind of shelf life and mass circulation as weapons/armor, but this isn't specifcally a droid change.


As far as doing this through some kind of loot drop, I don't like the idea, if for no other reason than I couldn't carry any more than 1-2 on me with my lack of inventory space...



Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

Malitevv
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:24 pm
#88






babyblue_d wrote:






Malitevv wrote:



I don't see one bit of evidence there that they actually controlled the market for anything.





Willbur Wright wrote:

Ahhhh.... So this is the reason I haven't been making any sales on spice scince I got spices IV.....











/shrug. one person flippantly making a statement like that in a forum doesn't demonstrate anything. i can think of alot of more likelyreasons thatsomeone who just got spices 4 isn't making money selling spice. it's convenient for him to think that somebody else is the reason, but there is no evidence there that that is actually the case.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot
Malitevv
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:29 pm
#89






Jenden wrote:


On the idea that factory crafting takes more work than hand crafting.... I beg to differ.





I agree that hand-crafting is more time consuming. But I don't think which is more time consuming really has any impact on this issue either. At least it shouldn't.


I also agree that the market would never be flooded with these hand-crafted items even if they were better.But the supply would be far greater than the rare loot drop weapons and armor so it doesn't directly compare to that. There's no control on how many a person could make if they do decide to make them other than time, that is if there is no "luck" involved with the process.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot
Snikrop
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:38 pm
#90

No survey droid ever made equals http://www.swgcraft.com, just like crafting would need a complete "revamp" before "fun gameplay" would leave anyone's lips. A change like the one discussed here encourages third party mouse macro software, and until the very nature of crafting in the game changes from a system that's mouse macroable this debate isn't productive. At least start focusing these changes to increase the value of goods produced by novice crafters producing good by hand, and forget about "the best" end of things. Simply put, a master crafter should be able to factory produce goods around the same level as a novice hand crafting, and if required a Master can turn out "master" level goods by hand with a slight bonus. The major stumbling to all of crafting is that there's very little incentive to be "in the middle," hence grinding.

Message Edited by Snikrop on 09-10-2004 10:44 PM

Message Edited by Snikrop on 09-11-2004 12:00 AM



" When you go to sleep, if you in fact sleep, does it take two star wars fans' blood to calm your nerves or are you higher than that now?

justG - When I am trying to go to sleep, and I am tossing and turning at night, the things that keep me up at night are combat, and jedi, and spaceflight, and things like that. Let me tell you this, we absolutely LOVE our jobs. And we LOVE this game. We are dedicated to doing whatever we can to enhance your play experience. And it usually only takes one fan's blood to drift off...
" JustG
Jenden
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:41 pm
#91






Malitevv wrote:





Jenden wrote:


On the idea that factory crafting takes more work than hand crafting.... I beg to differ.





I agree that hand-crafting is more time consuming. But I don't think which is more time consuming really has any impact on this issue either. At least it shouldn't.


I also agree that the market would never be flooded with these hand-crafted items even if they were better.But the supply would be far greater than the rare loot drop weapons and armor so it doesn't directly compare to that. There's no control on how many a person could make if they do decide to make them other than time, that is if there is no "luck" involved with the process.







right, there will be a much larger quanitty than loot items, but then again the difference between the quality of a hand crafted item versus a factory made item wouldn't be nearly as significant.



On a side note, I would even be happy with some kind of specialized "mark" you could put on hand crafted items... something that A. distinguish it and B. have some form of bragging value.




Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

Page 7 of 25