Droid Engineer Archive

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

It wouldn't mean that a hand-crafter would see, say, a 140 Med. module. It might mean....112 or 115. Or it might mean that they'd get some amount of resources removed (i.e. end up only needing 20 units of _____ instead of 35). Note....those were off the top of my head examples only.

The point is that for the majority of players that buy products, the "best" would basically remain where it is now. However, for those that wanted to push the envelope...it'll be harder to obtain and a lesser return at the top.

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Malitevv wrote:

So if I'm to think of this in terms of those FS benefits, what am suppossed to be thinking of it exactly? because those benefitsare dealt with rather poorly.

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

This is kinda what I mean....why buy the 110 rated med module droid when there are 112's?


Because the 112s would be devishly hard to pull off. It's theissue of providing diminishing returns that are still (technically) rewards. We see this play out in any number of areas already...the FS stuff was one example that I know will beeasy for some people to equate this all to...

Do you really "need" the FS crafting box that ensures you never critical fail? No.

Would it be kind of a cool reward to have it? Sure

Will it be harder to obtain that smaller return on your investment? You bet.


Let me rephrase that: how many 100 rated med module droids do you sell?


You're making my point for me, JC....careful.

The Harvest module is likely our best analog here. It's way hard to get to a 120 rated harvest droid. However, if you were to do so...boy...you'd get some rewards. So, while people await that, they buy 107 or 109 or 114 versions...cause they want a droid to help.

I agree that lower level Med modules are kinda...silly. I mean, not just a 100 rating (Med. 5) but say a 30? or 40? Ever sold one of those? Heck...I don't even give those away (cause I'd consider it sort of a slight against my client). Over time, it would be good to just see "Medical Module". Then, fix experimentation on it so that the functional rating happened similar to the Harvest modules (it would also help clear up our cluttered schematic list a lot).

While your question asks "Why hand craft?" ....if it's changed so that hand crafting gets a bonus, then "why factory craft?"

Cause the return on "uber" hand-crafted items would be seen as a diminishing return in relation to the work to get there. People would buy 110 Med modules cause 112s (or whatever) would be harder to obtain...perhaps much more so. But, for those that DID get take the time...the reward would be there.

The risk of hand-crafting in that situation is that they "uber" / best item is harder to get to...the reward is that you DO have "the best" (but not nearly in the quantities possible via factories...and also not as fast).

Now...is that worth is for most people? That's a subjective issue. Some players just want any med module (they don't know/care a lot about our ratings or numbers).

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Yea...the FS crafting thing doesn't explain this exactly how I'd like.

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

It wouldn't mean that a hand-crafter would see, say, a 140 Med. module. It might mean....112 or 115. Or it might mean that they'd get some amount of resources removed (i.e. end up only needing 20 units of _____ instead of 35). Note....those were off the top of my head examples only.

The point is that for the majority of players that buy products, the "best" would basically remain where it is now. However, for those that wanted to push the envelope...it'll be harder to obtain and a lesser return at the top.

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This is kinda what I mean....why buy the 110 rated med module droid when there are 112's? Let me rephrase that: how many 100 rated med module droids do you sell?

While your question asks "Why hand craft?" ....if it's changed so that hand crafting gets a bonus, then "why factory craft?"

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• Having even less storage


• Not using facs as much


• Taking the time to hand craft


• Taking more time to stock

IFthe (reward)bonus handcrafting is good enough. the number here is critical, if its to low ppl wont bother to handcraft at all, 1% isnt worth handcrafting every subcomp, but if the 5% bonus on each subcomps somehow adds +10% dmg or resistence ect, ect, it will be worth many ppls time to make that even better equipment.

If thereward is weak ppls response to using said system will be weak and it wont affect the economy much, if the reward is large/strong it will motivate ppl to use it and will affect economy, this is ALL interelated, to exclude one part makes no sense....its like discusing adding or removing fingers and ignoring what hands do. cost means little as the market pushes hard onto whatever is best aka loot wpns/armor.

If i went on a tagent here let me know, is there some other costs/rewards i dont understand, or im not discusing??

/ponder

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

This is kinda what I mean....why buy the 110 rated med module droid when there are 112's?


Because the 112s would be devishly hard to pull off. It's theissue of providing diminishing returns that are still (technically) rewards. We see this play out in any number of areas already...the FS stuff was one example that I know will beeasy for some people to equate this all to...

Do you really "need" the FS crafting box that ensures you never critical fail? No.

Would it be kind of a cool reward to have it? Sure

Will it be harder to obtain that smaller return on your investment? You bet.

In a effort to assist in getting the point across, here's how I see this "proposed change":

Example: Using [x] set of resources, if I make a factory schematic I get a 110 rated module droid. If I hand craft it, I can get a 112 rating. As you can see, my worry is that *every* time you hand craft something, you get a "better product".

Now, what I think you *might* be saying instead is that if you hand craft it 99 times out of 100 you get a 110 rated module...but there is that chance that that 1/100 time you will get a 112 rated module. That's all well and good because you have just about as much of a chance getting that as you do a 35% damage slice (well, possibly less). In which case, it will be those items that will be held to the side as auctions.

While your question asks "Why hand craft?" ....if it's changed so that hand crafting gets a bonus, then "why factory craft?"

Cause the return on "uber" hand-crafted items would be seen as a diminishing return in relation to the work to get there. People would buy 110 Med modules cause 112s (or whatever) would be harder to obtain...perhaps much more so. But, for those that DID get take the time...the reward would be there.

The risk of hand-crafting in that situation is that they "uber" / best item is harder to get to...the reward is that you DO have "the best" (but not nearly in the quantities possible via factories...and also not as fast).

Now...is that worth is for most people? That's a subjective issue. Some players just want any med module (they don't know/care a lot about our ratings or numbers).

....and I seriously think you're underestimating the number of players out there that only want "the best" and are willing to pay anything for them.

Here's another worry of mine: Everyone's probably heard about when someone privatly messages a Doc and askes them for a buff when their not buffing. Some docs say "yes, but for [inser exhorbant fee here]. Others put people on ignore lists. Then insult the doc when they produce "sub quality buffs".

Ever read the Weaponsmith forum's "Questions you never ask a master weaponsmith" thread? Note the comments about "go get the product off my vendor; that's the best stuff I have." Well, if you make hand crafting matter more then that's not going to be true anymore. People will (yes, there will be those types of people) insist that you make "the best" [insert product here] for them right now refusing to buy off your vendor because "it isn't your best."

How would you like to all of a sudden get into "tell hell" while down in the DWB putting together a Mandalorian Helm because people would refuse to buy off your vendor?

Like I said, all....I was very worried about trying to bring this up cause I knew it would be hard to explain via text/posts as opposed to in person. When we had a chance to really kick this around in person, we were able to cut right to the heart of things much faster and better. Comments and concerns weren't misread, glossed over or misunderstood.

I'll have to think about how I can try to reproduce that here...

Hop on TestCenter (when it comes back) and we'll chat if I havn't gotten your meaning yet. I am open to hear how you think this wouldn't nerf factories and reward hand crafting at the same time.

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Gron_DM wrote:

IFthe (reward)bonus handcrafting is good enough. the number here is critical, if its to low ppl wont bother to handcraft at all, 1% isnt worth handcrafting every subcomp, but if the 5% bonus on each subcomps somehow adds +10% dmg or resistence ect, ect, it will be worth many ppls time to make that even better equipment.

If thereward is weak ppls response to using said system will be weak and it wont affect the economy much, if the reward is large/strong it will motivate ppl to use it and will affect economy, this is ALL interelated, to exclude one part makes no sense....its like discusing adding or removing fingers and ignoring what hands do. cost means little as the market pushes hard onto whatever is best aka loot wpns/armor.

If i went on a tagent here let me know, is there some other costs/rewards i dont understand, or im not discusing??

/ponder

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I'm with you. The important thing is that the better item that can only be made by hand crafting (or whatever)give those incremental bonuses that provide, when all things considered, very little game benefit to the customerat all. I.e., that a player using the factory crafted item isn't going to see his gameplay degraded because he failed to buy the hand crafted one. People will seek out and buy the slightly better items because people want the bragging rights; they want the 550 rated combat probot even though one may prove to them that the 530 rated probot does almost the same damage. (no different than real life really, most people want more horsepower than they need in their cars. they put the sports car trim on the minivan even though it isn't and will never be a race car (/chuckle), they buy 3.0GHz processors even though the difference between that and a 2.8GHz processor is almost zero (because of memory technology constraints), etc.)

But the important thing be that the differences we talk about be prestige oriented and not major in-game utility delta's. That for me is the bottom line. So long as the item crafted by the alternate crafting method isn't really all that much better, most people will buy the lesser item even though they are likely to prefer the "better" one. Some won't, but those people are fools and most people aren't fools (I hope). The current state of harvest droids is the best example of this. People are more than willing to pay high prices for any droid with a rating above 100. They'll pay more for the 114 rated droid, but the 102 and 109 rated droids still sell amazingly well.

Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-10-2004 03:55 PM

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

I agree that lower level Med modules are kinda...silly. I mean, not just a 100 rating (Med. 5) but say a 30? or 40? Ever sold one of those? Heck...I don't even give those away (cause I'd consider it sort of a slight against my client). Over time, it would be good to just see "Medical Module". Then, fix experimentation on it so that the functional rating happened similar to the Harvest modules (it would also help clear up our cluttered schematic list a lot).



/bow

Respectfully,

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DOh! TK, I suggested this several weeks back in a thread about sorting and reorganizing our schematic lists. I would LOVE to see the 6 stupid levels of the med, item, data, and armor modules taken out and a single schematic left in, that had a slot or 3 for "optional" components/resources that boost the final modules quality. How many of you ever make anything other than level 6 *anything*!?

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AO Wrote:

You put less in, you get less out.

You put more in, you get more out.

When you remain at the prototype level, you produce less.

When you reach the industrial level, you produce more.

It costs much less to hand-craft than industrial craft, and is less complex, therefore you recieve less reward.

It costs more, and is more complex, to industrial craft, therefore you recieve more reward while assuming more risk andmuch, much less flexibility.

AO

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What? It costs *more* to hand craft! Dont forget critical failures! Its not like a factory uses up 1 in 10 sets of resources. You lose 1 set in the schematic, but thats it. I guarantee you'll crit on at least 1 out of25 or so assemblies. The only reason why it costs more to factory produce is the maint and power. But the point I was making before is...YOU DONT HAVE ANY RISK to factory produce, where the hand crafter suffers failures in experimentation, crit fails, etc... AND while you are out doing something else while you factory turns out 250 droids, the hand crafter is being a DE. I'm suprised more people with NO crafting skills at all aren't full-time crafters. All they need an a crafter willing to sell them schematics, and they can make everything we can make with NO SKILL at all.

I would like to see rewards for people who do more than load schematics up all day and go do something else while it works. Look, I know running a factory-based business for DE is hard. I'l done a couple runs of combat R3's and I still do Det droids. Its a pain. But its no where near as hard or risky as hand making them. Yet the reward for the factory producer is greater. They get a lot more things to sell. I'd like to reverse that. Make hand-crafted goods 5-10% better than factpry goods. Lower vitality, or "condition"...something.

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LonelyGhost wrote:

I'm suprised more people with NO crafting skills at all aren't full-time crafters. All they need an a crafter willing to sell them schematics, and they can make everything we can make with NO SKILL at all.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Tarne,

You're looking at this the way we did....on the 'larger picture' scale.


That's my point in all this, folks. This is not just about us (DEs). It's about a core crafting system and design that ends up leaving no (or very very little) reward, in proportion ot the 'cost' spent on it.


That means we have an imbalance (IMO).


When you think about this issue...think about the larger picture as it relates to every crafting situation and profession. And, really try to bear in the mind the practical cost vs. reward situation that Tarne pointed to so well.


/bow

Respectfully,

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I respectfully disagree. Tarne is correct, the game is filled with cost / rewards, everything has them. Yet quite often a more advanced item is used simply because it is better.

For example, people use Heavy Harvestors, vice Personal Harvestors. Even though they pay more maintenance and power costs, they have simply escalated to the next level. Sure I could CHOOSE to use smaller harvestors, and some people may, but the reward of using more advanced Harvs is simply greater then the cost. Another example is weapons. Lower level weapons use less HAM, and cost less, yet people use the upper Tier type weapons like the T21. Simply because the reward is greater then the cost.

Basically what your saying is that there should be no "advanced" forms of everything, cost should equal reward at all levels. Under the logic of making Hand crafting better, why stop there? Shouldn't people have more of a reason to use lower level stuff with everything? Why have advanced versions be better then anything else? It's the same thing.

Factory crafting is simply advanced crafting. That's it. You start out small, then you move onto advanced crafting. Just like Harvestors, weapons, whatever. Sure some people may CHOOSE to not do this, they enjoy hand crafting as well. I'm sure there are people who enjoy the look and sound of the CDEF pistol as well, should it be made more effective or the Scatterpistol made less so?

Hand Crafting DOEShave rewards. You don't use lots for factories. I run anywhere between 5-8 factories, if I didn't use those, I would have more Harvestors. My factory items look the same. I pay maint on my factories, hand crafters don't. at least not as much. I am more tied to my workshop for crafting items, hand crafters can be more roving salesman. So there are already "some" rewards for handcrafting. No not as much of a reward as using a factory, but there shouldn't be. Factories are simply more advanced crafting.

I'm looking at the big picture as well. While others have less customization then we do, they also have more REASONS to hand craft, like loot dropped items.

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LonelyGhost wrote:

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AudioOrgana wrote:
/snip
In the end, this will do nothing that you want to accomplish, because industrial people like me will not continue to make these products if they are nerfed, and will invest the millions or resources we have and bang out the best droids just like you. Now, instead of competing with a big corporation, which made it easy for hand-DE's to distinguish themselves, you will be competing with someone who still has a huge customer base and demand, and it would simply change how we play SWG, only without the burdon of inventory and other risks of Industrial production. And we'll just sit for a couple of hours every few days and bang out 100 droids by hand, with our of rare warehoused resources which we have been saving in Industrial quantities, and those people who are complaining about the system as is will be no better off. Industrial Droid Engineers are pretty, well, industrious, and simply will not continue to use factories if they are nerfed. Oh, and let's not forget about the customers, who already complain how hard it is to find a decent droid vendor.

It comes down to this : if you choose to build by hand because you like it better, take advantage of the benefits of it but don't ask me to subsidize your playchoice. If you want the benefits of Industrial crafting, then become an Industrialist. If you are not willing to do the work that goes into that (even if it means running missions to make your start-up capital, as many of us had to), then you don't deserve the benefits. Giving a bonus to handcrafted items would be welfare for people who are choosing very actively their station in the game.

I'm all for looted components and other additions - but an inherent bonus because you choose to make a prototype instead of manufacturing the item industrially would not only be an unfair nerf to Industrialists, it will never accomplish what you want it to, because Industrial work would simply die. I'm sure this would bring relief or personal satisfaction to that segment that are afraid of or don't want to put in the work to compete on that level, but long-term it's still not going to help those who choose not to help themselves.

AO

Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 09-10-2004 01:55 PM

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My take is simple. I would rather see you hand-make a hundred top-quality droids a day with your stockpiled resources over *hundred's* of those exact same top-quailty droids with those exact same resources. The former model allows more DE's to be actively involved in making and SELLING droids. The latter makes it hard for other who do not have the...resolve...you exhibit. But this is not about me, its about the dozens of new people entering the game every day. Its about them being able to have fun making droids too. Its about them not having to run survey missions every week, month after month, because they just cant sell enough droids to keep up with this hostile marketplace. People seem to mock suggestions made by threads like this a "socialist".While it may have the same flavor, dont forget. ITS A GAME! And ALL the people who pay to be a part of this DESERVE a chance.

For those Industrialists out there, keep going. Keep making hundreds of droids a day. If I want a few really good Det droids, I'll go shop around for a while. If I want a decent Det droid, I'll come see you. If I *have* to have a Det droid right now, I'll come see you. But if I just need a top-end Droid with an extra couple % medical bonus, or an extra couple item storage slots, etc...I'll find a Master specializing in custom work.

Shoot, what I just said brought to mind another problem that hearkens back to my first post on this...resources and credits.

The current Idustrialists are able to do what they do becuase they CAN. They have tens of millions of credits, they have tens of millions of resources, and they can spend anywhere from 20 RL minutes to 60 RL minutes ot produce THOUSANDS of droids. I say RL becuase although it takes 2 or 3 days for a factory to make components, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE THERE! You can be out fighting, dancing, grinding FS skills, or even spending quality time in the Real World. Whereas if you hand crafted items, you DO have to be there. *That* is the tradeoff. That is the balance.

So as long as resources continue to glut the game, and as long as people can make 2-3 million creds a night grinding Mokk missions, none of these changes will do jack. Instead, the Industrialists will keep running their factories, and while they are running "standard" goods by the hundrds, they will craft the "uber" stuff by hand. But at least they are spending RL time to make those uber items now.

Man, why cant the Combat Rebalance be here now? Its gonna change so much!

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Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-10-2004 05:49 PM

Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-10-2004 05:49 PM