Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Please help me understand your change of heart.
TheWoody wrote:
(Wow, I gotta post faster)
It's not you, bro. This has got to be the hottest button anyone could push on a DE, and it's been slammed down harder than someone playing a button-masher in a pizza parlor.
On a related note, TheWoody is right Thunderheart. This is more than just "We never said we wanted this." This is an insult. I didn't want to just throw it right up in your face, but truth be knownthis whole debacleabsolutely is an insult. It's an insult to ALL of us who have waited, be it three months or since BETA. You knew. If you didn't understand this is not what we wanted from reading our posts over the last several months, Drashk told you outright. You were warned. Yes, you're just the mouthpiece for "the organization" and you do not make development decisions. But you should have had at least one red flag raised before this happened.
Critical Failure---LOL!
Reaperss wrote:
As far as abuse goes wit a cert. system, you'll have the same problem with a new proffesion. People will just dabble in DH, or hell, master it, along with another proffesion. Can you imagine MDH/Master commando? Or MDE/MDH/ novice pistoleer? Or any of another 100 combinations that could lead to balance problems.
The difference is that they'd have to spend skill points if there were a DH class, while incorporating a cert system in to current skill trees basically gives the ability to you for free.
This is all so out of control. I'm starting to think the DE profession just won't get fixed. You know why? Because the DEVs took so long to get to it. We've gone so long with so many problems, and that gave us too much time to think about things and become passionate about our opinions.
Think about it. If things had been dealt with quickly, it would have ended the debate. Now, though, people are so polarized and upset that it's going to be impossible to quell the uprising. It's just going to get worse from here on out.
So here's my plea: can we PLEASE put combat droids, new utility droids, and any new content whatsoever completely aside until we get our current issues fixed? That's something I think we can all rally behind, and we might all have a different perspective on the new content once the current stuff is working right.
This is the fundamental flaw here. Droids should not be, nor should ever have been, treated as pets. Droids should be vastly superior to pets, in what they can accomplish, and in ease of use.
DiLune wrote:
Okay, I don't understand here myself. Droid=Pet. Pet=Droid. The skins are different but the mechanics are the same.
Well, I'd like to understand the change of heart.
Our opinion on this matter has never changed. We desire to be a crafting class that provides a product for everybody.
+ Simply put certs for move advanced droids throughout the existing profession structure and we could be content.
No one wants a DH class. Well, about 20 people do.
"Droid Certs wont work because there are so many combat class combinations that some one will inevitably find an uber-combo with a powerful droid."
Well if thats all you are worried about (and I think you worry unduly) you can always nerf the Uber-Combo if ever it shows up. Hardly a supporting argument to create a whole new and unwanted profession. Keep remembering nobody is talking about CL70 type droids. Just a happy compromise level.
The Cert system will work...I didn't like it either but having checked it out in detail I am converted if the alternative is DH. Runesabre will take a look, nod, and say yep can do.
- Marksman skill A, level I = droid level 10
- Marksman skill A, level II = droid level 15
- Marksman skill A, level III = droid level 20
- Marksman skill A, level IV = droid level 25
- Rifle/Carbine/Pistol skill A, level I = droid level 30
- Rifle/Carbine/Pistol skill A, level II = droid level 35
- Bounty Hunter/Commando/?? skill A, level I = droid level 30
- etc.
Thunderheart wrote:
Well, I'd like to understand the change of heart.
Way back when, when I asked, DE's proclaimed that they were a "crafting professions" and not a "combat professions". Correspondent aside, this opinion was driven by post on this board. I see a big change of heart now.
What's your motivation?
This is an important thread. Off topic posts and rants will be deleted.
You are darn right this is an important thread.
There was no change of heart.
You came to us with a bunch of options.
I should have gone with my initial instinct at the time and not actually believed that SOE was up for a discussion - when it was clear you had already made up your minds.
We said, *IF* certifications were *forced* on us, we wanted them in the DE tree.
Although there are some good ideas of cert systems floating around, I think you will find most people opposed to them at all. These are droids - everyone has them. A princess from Alderaan, a farm boy from Tattoine. Droids are the great equalizer - absolutely anyone, of any profession, any faction, any race can own one, as it should be.
Creature pets ARE NOT DROIDS.
During the threads you are talking about, I noted at the time that people were responding to two questions and not just one, as you presented. 1) Should droids have certs, and 2) If so, should there be a new profession for it.
The answers were, 1) No, not really - anyone should be able to use them, eliminating balance issues (since anyone can own it, it's perfectly balanced), and 2) as I said above, if you *ARE* going to force them on us, then we want the certs.
The point is - we didn't want any of it, most of us just wanted a combat droid or two to sell.
Please don't insult us by saying we "had a change of heart" - we didn't. It sounds like you guys were just reading what you wanted into what was actually said.
Audio
Here's the link to Drashk's cert system
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52473
I'm sure it's been said over & over, but once again:
TH completely misunderstanding does NOT equal a change of heart.
DE's have never wanted what you said they wanted: you just plain misunderstood. Now you seem to be getting the message, so admit your mistake and go back to tell your bosses the real score.
I am not trying to be snotty here. I am just responding to your statements. This all has been thought out (with CH and other professions in mind) for a long, long time and has gone through many debates and discussions and refinements. We've presented our answers time and time again. They're there. They're sticked. All someone has to do is READ them.
DiLune wrote:
Okay, I don't understand here myself. Droid=Pet. Pet=Droid. The skins are different but the mechanics are the same.
Think so, huh? You got a pet that can store items? Or help you craft items out in the field? Perhaps you have a pet who can help medics heal better and/or faster? Or your pet can repair other pets. Which planet did you find this pet on? Does anyone else know?
How can a cert system resolve the skill points a CH has to spend on the same CL pet as a droid I'm certed for at Master Pistoleer? What you are proposing will gut the CH profession because droids will be the always superior option. Do the math. How many skill points would a master pistoleer have to spend to use a CL25 pet? Now you're saying that certing him in a CL25 droid isn't unbalanced?
None ofus are saying that everyone should be able to handle a "DL 25" droid when they can otherwise only handle a CL 10 pet. NONE of us.
Within the parameters of the game, how do you resolve getting to use over CL10 pet/droids? You have to spend skill points on it. The cert system is using already spent skill points. So, do DE's get droid handling? Then you can't sell your high level droids because the people that would buy them are the ones that use them. So Droid Handler is about the only option. Unless you can come up with a skill point expenditure, within the parameters of the game, that comes to an equitable resolution with CH.
Keep reading. Might want to sift through some of the other threads in the forum before asking this again.
The only way I see a Cert System working within the confines of all other classes would be to add a top level certification "next to" master of any given profession. Call it Droid Certified and make it a horizontal skill box to any given Master skill box (except DE, who have already "spent" their points), and require nothing more than training for 65 or so points for the single skill box to allow control of droids.
Otherwise, by adding certs here and there like salt within existing professional trees will imbalance the CH profession.
This is why I support a DH profession, but without removing the ability of DE's to control their own creations.
The points, whether DH, DE or a one-time 65-point chunkbranching horizontally at other professions Master levels, must be spent to maintain balance.
Lodacai
Thunderheart wrote:
Sketh wrote:
This is not a change of heart.
Please see Drashak's cert system proposed here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52473
THAT is what we wanted, not a droid handler class.
That is probably not possible, though I will find out.
Droid Certs wont work because there are so many combat class combinations that some one will inevitably find an uber-combo with a powerful droid.
Faction Droids are planned, but they are down the road a bit.
Not possible? It looks a lot like the CH point system, only spread over different professions. I'm sure your Developers are smart enough to devise a system that can't be munchkinned too much.