Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Can someone justify DE only droids?
Actually, I've been a programmer for the past 17 years.
You missed my point however. I wasn't saying that the end-user wouldn't understand the concepts behind the software better (i.e. the combat or the video effect creation), I was just saying that, until they are trained on it specifically, they will not be able to use it.
There will be keyboard shortcuts, menu options, sub-functions, etc that they have no idea how to use (or even that they exist) until they have time to figure it out. That's why I was saying the creator would be able to use it better. If a programmer creates software and puts a back-door into it that allows them to access it easier/quicker or allows them to complete a certain task, then, unless the end-user is adept enough to discover it or is told about it, the programmer will always have an advantage over the end-user. My video effects may not be as advanced, but I'll be able to encode the exact same video much quicker.
Did I explain it better that time? If you noticed the times of my post, I was riding through a very long shift at work and I think I got off course at some point as I was slipping in and out of a CRT daze. (Sorry, if I seemed defensive or whatever before, I wasn't meaning to be...I just was trying to get across a certain point...and besides, I already stated a few times that the justifications given weren't my beliefs they were just ones that people could use if they so chose...I don't agree with any of the three).
Second, I'll explain why I'm here (and why class doesnt matter). This decision isnt going to effect just you. This is going to effect probably around 10 other classes. If you are given a DE only combat droid of increased effectiveness compared to what is available to everyone, then every single artisan class is going to start screaming for one. And if classes arre really smart, they'll ask for it as a master only item they can create, I know I would. And when it comes to our justification, its simple:
"DE has one, and we are every bit as much of a crafter as they are. So why does one class get added abilities compared to others."
And you what, it really isnt going to matter which lass I am: BE, architect, weaponsmith, tailor,chef......etc This justification works for every single class out there. I mean, can you really think about a reason why this arguement isnt valid. I can't
Third, I can explain real simply why you are considered an artisan class. Cause all of your skills come from the artisan beggining profession and branch from there. Just like a rifleman start from marksman and are a ranged class, and TKA starts from brawler and are a melee class, and doctor starts from medic and is a healing class....you start with artisan so you are an artisan class. Anyone not understand this? (Let's please not break into a discussion of multi-line and hybrid classes please, thats not what this is about).
Fourth, why all the bad blood about the probot. Considering pets are going down to CL10, let me tell you, a 800 HAM, medium armor, 40% resistances droid is looking **edit** good as sidekick compared to any creature I can think of. I really cant think of anything else I'd want, can you?
You see, this discussion really doesnt just concern you. Depending on which way the Devs go on this one, there are going to be alot of classes effected by this. Personally, I think this is going to open a Pandora's Box if this change goes in leading to either A) everyone getting something (kinda stupid for everyone to have their own combat device). Or B) after recieving your own pet, its going to get nerfed/taken away because the devs arent going to want to give everybody something (the precedent they started with you). Either scenario isnt a real pretty picture. And personally, I find this trend of upwards balancing to be quite disturbing for the long term health of the game.
Tilen
Problem: DE's need balancing (or fixing, call it what you will)
Solution: Give DE's combat only droids they can use.
Justification: ??????????????????
Problem is DE's need fixing andbalancing they aren't exclusive and have 2 very different meanings. On that note one of the things that I think you forget is that a DE was supposed to be able to make combat droids.And Idon't meanthe current level of probots; I mean a droid that is combat effective. And at one time they did but for the sake of balance the probot was nerfed.
So lets look at it from this aspect:
Problem: probots were too powerfulto have everyoneown one.
Solution: nerf em
Justification: fix game balance.
Problem: returning the ability for DE's to make combat droids without destroying balance
Solution: DE only droid at this point
Justification: Restoring envisioned DE functionality.
"How do you justify the fact that DE's get a their own special droid, where as no other class gets this priviledge?"
Creature Handlers DO have this privilage
- What percentage of Pets that Creature Handlers use are made by Biological Engineers?
- Those Pets that Creature Handlers use that are not created by Biological Engineers are aquired through what other class?
- The Creature Handler is fully self sufficient able to "Create" then "Use" their own pets. Instead of having to use purchased or harvester resources they find a baby and "Tame".
Droid Engineers would NOT have this prvilage even IF a Combat Droid was given to their exclusive use
The Droid Engineer would create their droids with potential economic transactions with Master Artisans, Armorsmiths, Architects (For harvesters), and/or Resource Gatherers. Without certification worth while Combat Droids wouldn't exist due to balance considerations. This isn't an opinion, it is based on the trends of how SOE has been handling pets and trying to restrict the benefit of usage to pets based on Skill Point expenditures and Faction Point expenditures.
At this time there is exactly one profession that has Droid in the name. Short of creating a new class which, in my opinion would be making a gimped version of a Creature Handler that would require pets of comperable power thus contributing to the Pet Wars problem, the only viable solution is to give the Droid Engineer a Combat Droid that isn't as strong as those available to the Creature Handler but still strong enough to give the Droid Engineer (Or Artisan Engineer) an opportunity to partipate in 4/5 of the game content.
To conclude: Half of your question is wrong thus the only answer could be that Droid Engineers are fully justified to join the ranks of classes that do have this priviledge
Fidg'Ter Gizmacher
I am not firmly on one side or the other when it comes to a DE only combat droid. I do think it would be completely justifiable for a DE to be able to use any combat droid that he made, more efficiently than anyone else.
The droids you make for the public have to have many safeguards built in to prevent the unknowledgeable user from getting in trouble. As a DE you know enough of the programming to bypass some of these safeguards. You should be able to call up special attacks on demand. At a high enough level you should be able to call up the ranged attack the pet might have, on demand. This is one of the changes they are instituting to CH with their pets. I know we don't want to become CHs, but in this case, this kind of ability seems to be a logical extension of a DEs ability. I have seem people use the example of giving their grandmother a computer. Grandma can work it, but they, themselves can use it better. It could be the same thing with our combat droids. Anyone can use them, but we can use them better because of our intimate knowledge of their inner workings.
I do think there would be nothing wrong with a DE only droid, but it should be a droid that makes us better DEs and not better fighters.
MrWizzard wrote:
I see some arguments to the effect of "its not going to hurt anyone, why dont the DEVs just throw us a bone and give us our own droid." Wouldnt it be more in line for a droid ENGINEER to have, say a droid, that could maybe enhance other droids? Maybe like a droid-slicing droid. I still dont see where combat fits anywhere into the context of an artisan.
Maybe we should start working to get a cert in place so any non-combatant (Including DE's) can't use any combat droid... Makes perfect sense...
Any character can use droids or creatures... Does this turn all these other characters into combat professions? I think not... Would giving us a unique droid chassis (combat or otherwise) make us a combat profession? I think not...
Good idea on the droid-slicing droid, though... I'd carry that one around. "/shout Slicing droids, 2k per slice"
Having a DE only COMBAT droid makes about as much sense as having a Tailor only combat suit. Thats cool, it would give them some edge in combat. The problem is, that class is not designed to participate in any combat in this game. Period. Notice the reason Artisans are completely different from Brawlers and Marksmen, no weapon certifications, no combat bonuses. Simply put an artisan is not meant to fight in swg.
Of course anyone can fight with a droid, as long as you dont get attacked. Notice how that sentence said ANYONE. Having a combat enhancing droid for a non-combat profession just doesnt make sense. Wookiees living on Endor, do not make sense.
I think having a DE only droid would be nice, but I disagree that it should be a combat droid.
Currently, Combat droids and non-combat droids are the same thing in SWG... I personally carry around a probot with a 110% Medical module & Weapon/Droid Crafting station in it...
Au-Ru_Blasterkin wrote:
Again, I still don't understand the whole "You're a crafting class, you can't combat" deal... Giving us a unique combat droid chassis with little/no benifit over over our top-of-the-line "sellable" droid isn't unbalancing anything and it isn't breaking game balance anywhere at all.
What's the point? You still haven't answered the real question, which is why bother?
I'd much rather that the devs spend their time fixing Gorantoth's list of issues and enhancing the pre-existing aspects of the class than developing and balancing a DE-only droid that we just don't need. And which also sets a precedent that will affect every crafting profession in the game.
If you want to be able to fight better, then pick up a combat profession. We just do not need a superior DE-only combat droid.
Regarding Droid Engineers being the most appropriate class to be able to use the most advanced combat droids to their full capacity:
I disagree. Sure, Droid Engineer is the most appropriate profession to be able to unlock those abilities, but other classes are more appropriate for being able to use them. Either that or the next thing you're going to tell me is that Droid Engineers should be given a Medical Droid that only they can use and it should be better than the Medical Droids that we can sell to Medics andDoctors!
See, when you put it that way it makes no sense. As an engineer, I know next to nothing about how to heal someone. Similarly, I know next to nothing about fighting. Sure, I'm perfectly capable of calling a combat droid and sending it into battle, but no more so than any other profession. Realistically, only the combat professions should be able to get the most out of combat droids, not Droid Engineers.
We are engineers. We're the people you come to when you need adroid because we know more about designing and building them than anyone else. However, we are NOT the most skilled at using those droids simply because we're not trained for those purposes.
Kollos wrote:
Tarell wrote:
So the question is what way can a DE make an effective Combat droid and have it used?
Personally, I find the Probot to be quite effective in its current state. It's a very sturdy little combat sidekick that is more than capable of drawing attention while I use my combat profession skills (in my case, Novice Rifleman) to kill those few enemies that I am forced to engage.
Compare the probot to a CL-10 (post-nerf) non-CH creature pet. More effective? Less effective? Forget the displayed CL-16... apparantly that was the level of apre-nerf probot. I'm just curious as to what level our current 'bots are. The armor helps it conserve its small HAM, but its damage output is so low,I'm afraid that after the AI fixes, its not going to be able to hold agro very well. In other words, after the first shot, its not going to matter what armor your droid has... its not the one that'll be getting chewed on.
Would I like a slightly more powerful combat droid than the current Probot? Sure, as long as I can sell it to other people as well. Why do Droid Engineers somehow need more protection than Bio-Engineers and Armorsmiths? Answer: we don't.
That really depends on what kind of combat droids we're gonna be seeing. I don't see anything much higher than CL-10 being allowed for general sales. The whole point of the new creature rule is to limit pets and encourage grouping and player interdependence.
But Sintrosi's discussion with "our" dev suggests that DE's are going to become an artisan/pet profession in the same way as CH's are a scout/pet proffession. If that happens, then we will need a droid (or multiples) in the same league as CH pets. Again, if we become a pet profession, your comparison to non-pet profession becomes meaningless. We WILL need strong pets.
So from my point of view, if a combat droid is so powerful that the devs cannot allow a Master Bounty Hunter or Master Commando to have one, then it is too powerful to be put into the game as a player-usable droid.
Agreed. Note that CL-10 pets ARE allowed to MBH's and MC's. That's why I think that's the most we're gonna see allowed for general use. And also why I'm curious about the probots ACTUAL level.
Restricting the use of a too-powerful combat droid to Droid Engineers - who are non-combatants - smacks of a kludge. Thankfully in this case, it's a kludge we don't need because the droid in question hasn't been added and the entire situation can be avoided by just not adding the too-powerful combat droid in the first place.
That's the only "kludge" that's gonna let us see powerful combatdroids in-game anytime in the forseeable future. If we become a pet class, we get 'em. If we don't, nobody does. I simply think the game needs a droid alternative to the multitude of CH's running around for immersion-sake.
Fidgiter wrote:
"How do you justify the fact that DE's get a their own special droid, where as no other class gets this priviledge?"
Creature Handlers DO have this privilage
- What percentage of Pets that Creature Handlers use are made by Biological Engineers?
- Those Pets that Creature Handlers use that are not created by Biological Engineers are aquired through what other class?
- The Creature Handler is fully self sufficient able to "Create" then "Use" their own pets. Instead of having to use purchased or harvester resources they find a baby and "Tame".
Droid Engineers would NOT have this prvilage even IF a Combat Droid was given to their exclusive use
The Droid Engineer would create their droids with potential economic transactions with Master Artisans, Armorsmiths, Architects (For harvesters), and/or Resource Gatherers. Without certification worth while Combat Droids wouldn't exist due to balance considerations. This isn't an opinion, it is based on the trends of how SOE has been handling pets and trying to restrict the benefit of usage to pets based on Skill Point expenditures and Faction Point expenditures.
At this time there is exactly one profession that has Droid in the name. Short of creating a new class which, in my opinion would be making a gimped version of a Creature Handler that would require pets of comperable power thus contributing to the Pet Wars problem, the only viable solution is to give the Droid Engineer a Combat Droid that isn't as strong as those available to the Creature Handler but still strong enough to give the Droid Engineer (Or Artisan Engineer) an opportunity to partipate in 4/5 of the game content.
To conclude: Half of your question is wrong thus the only answer could be that Droid Engineers are fully justified to join the ranks of classes that do have this priviledge
Fidg'Ter Gizmacher
Agreed... the whole point of this is that Droid Engineers will become a pet class, different than CH's, but in the same league.
Kollos wrote:
Very few (if any)of the proponents of the DE-only combat droid are talking in terms of a Probot that does 65 damage instead of 50.
Some of them are talking CL 40 droids. Some of them are talking CL 30 droids. Some of them are talking CL 25 droids. Some of them are talking of making us able to use a pair of CL 20 droids. Some of them are talking a pair of CL 15 droids.
Any and all of those options are too powerful.
Not if we're a pet profession. I think that our "CL Management" rating should be lower than a CH's, because our pets are easier to come by, but other than that, I don't see any issues with balance. To be "effective", a DE must have at least 4-0-0-4 in the artisan tree, which costs the same number of skill points that a CH must invest in Scout.
If we had a generally available combat droid at CL 15 and one usable only by Master Droid Engineers at CL 16, that might not be a problem (but it also might be a problem, because it sets a precedent that is extremely difficult to reverse).
And more to the point, really, is that no one has answered the opposite question: why do we need a superior DE-only combat droid? We're not a combat class, so what's with all this desire for a unique combat droid? Why can't EVERYONE use that droid?
Because we'd be a pet profession? (Not a "combat profession" - a PET profession.) Because a pet profession needs powerful pets. Because allowing EVERYONE access to a droid much higher than CL-10 would counteract the fixes that the devs are just now putting into place on TC?
MrWizzard wrote:
The problem is, that class is not designed to participate in any combat in this game. Period. Notice the reason Artisans are completely different from Brawlers and Marksmen, no weapon certifications, no combat bonuses. Simply put an artisan is not meant to fight in swg.
Uh-huh. So I should just trash-can the other 140-some-odd points I have and spend all my time in front of a crafting station? Your argument might make sence in EQ or DAOC, but we don't have "classes" in this game.
Maybe compared to a BH or Commando, we aren'twarrior material... but a Master ofANY elite artisan profession can stillmaster a weapon-specific elite combat profession. Just like a CH can. We have to abandon dabbling in almost all other professions and limit our merchant abilities, but weCAN do it.
Of course anyone can fight with a droid, as long as you dont get attacked. Notice how that sentence said ANYONE. Having a combat enhancing droid for a non-combat profession just doesnt make sense. Wookiees living on Endor, do not make sense.
I think having a DE only droid would be nice, but I disagree that it should be a combat droid.
If the changealluded to in Sintrosi's "What Iknow" post goes through, we would be a artisan/pet profession. Not a "combat" profession.