Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Project: Droid Engineer Modular Upgrade System Synopsis
AudioOrgana wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
The reality is that stocking about 10 Droid types will make 95% of the customers happy. The other 5% can do a special order. I don't agree with the argument that module swapping would give customers more options. If you use all 5 spots you can already fill any need you may have. 5 slots is a lot of options, rare is the person who can't meet their needs with those 5 slots.
Far more people would be inconvienianced by having to visit a DE 6 times as often, then would benefit from this. The group of people who just can't meet their needs with 5 slots is small.
Agreed on both counts.
First, you are absoultely correct - I stock about six types of droids. I stock a lot of them, they are high-quality, and I always make sure they are available. I also have what many would consider premium prices. These are combat (my specialty), harvest (just because they require simmilar materials and are always so popular), and a basic surgical droid (just because I got sick of being asked ten times a week "why don't you have medical droids?"). People come to me when they want to immediately get a droid that does one of these functions, and does it well. People know what I sell (dedicated-task buffed up stock models) and come to me for that; and when they want a tricked out R3 with a repair, item, data, structure craft, avian effect, musician recorder, they know to find a hand crafting DE.
I'd disagree with the 95% figure (but I know that's just a figure you were using as an example), because I have found that the smaller DE's that cooperate with me (even when we have never spoken) instead of trying to outdo me can keep quite busy and do as well as a handcrafting DE could. I am in this to make money - I love droids, but that's not my reason for being a DE these days - I'd have tried a half dozen professions so far if it wasn't continuing to be profitable. Lots of people want handcrafted droids, they just can't always find them. The only special orders I do these days (about once a week) is when someone desperately e-mails me saying, "I've been looking for a week for someone to make this droid for me with X different modules, and I can't find a DE to do a custom order - you're my only hope!" It happens more often than you think (well, not the you're my only hope thing, but sometimes, no joke).
How this relates to module swapping is simple - this would turn it into a reverse situation of the current Industrial/Handcraft paradigm. I joked above about how this would be good for someone like me, as making chassis in a factory is hard work. I won't get into the whole debate as to which is harder (I've come to believe they are about equal, but in different ways), but nonetheless making a couple hundred droids in a factory takes a lot of resources, a lot of planning, a lot of moving crates endlessly from factory to storage to factory again, and a lot of patience - anyone who has ever moved a couple hundred crates of varying parts at once can attest to the mind-numb it gives you.
Personally, I think I would only make high-level modules and put 'em for sale. I wouldn't bother with the chassis anymore. I can sell those high-level modules that I make for about what I'm selling the first droid now - I know my customers, and they'd still pay it to get the function. I could run 1 or 2 factories instead of 3-6 like I do now.
The one gate to industrial engineering is handling a network of such sheer volume, and I could get most of the benefits with a whole lot less of the headache. But do you know what other people will do? Pick up DE and Master Merchant, and stock 1000 frames and 3000 modules at once and just blow every DE out of the water. Why? Because module upgrade will take the big advantage of hand-crafters (custom building to specs) and totally eliminate the need. I'll hang in there for awhile by making high-level experimented modules (combat and harvesting, mainly) because I still have those rare resources, but there will be new Industrialists in town. You will eliminate the one true gate to Industrial droid production - the fact that we can't customize our droids. People will be thinking :
"Why go to a handcrafter ever if you can always get everything you want from a vendor?"
Heck, even the bazaar. Think about it - how long before level 6 item, data, and medical modules show up on the bazaar for 6K? And then chassis? There are people out there selling level 6 flight computers for 3K - there will be people who will flood the market with DE components and commodify them into the molecular clamps and upgrade kits of the DE profession. Only in this case, it will be ALL of our products. Bye bye DE.
Even if they make it so only DE's can modify droids, how much are you going to be charging people for the "service"? When someone shows up with an R3 that someone else made and they want you to put one module in? Worse, they buy all the modules and chassis off the bazaar and come to you to "put it together!!!d00d!it don't cost u nuthin!" Either way, everyones sales are going to tank - at least the REAL DE's.
So, best case scenario, we become slot monkies the whole lot of us, where people are asking you to put in modules from Industrial crafters like me who are doing a whole lot less work now than before, and you aren't even selling a full droid anymore. You say you wouldn't do that? Someone would. "I'll put together any droid for 5K - u buy parts from bazaar then come to me!" - I can hear the starport spam now. Worst case scenario, people buy a chassis and some modules (and maybe a "assembly tool", if we are lucky) and make their own droid. We supply components only, and the bazaar factor means vendor sales die. Neither one sounds like much fun to me.
This not only should be dropped as a possible request for development time and actively turned into something we say we never want - we'd loose every bit of power we've so slowly gained. Being a DE isn't nearly the hell it used to be - it's only gotten better, and if they can just give us a few more bits of attention (some new droids, decay, loot) we'd be on pretty equal footing with the non-WS/AS crafting professions. Commodifing our products into pieces would be two steps forward, a thousand steps back. I'd rather be a DE back in the days where item and data storage didn't even work and all we had to sell was crafting and medic droids, 'cause at least even then we got to create something and not just schill spare parts.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-12-2004 08:47 AM
Hmm so this really begs the question, how much more demand for droids is good to stay at handcrafting level.
This boils down to if we have as much demand as an AS we will want modularity. If we have about twice the demand we have now we will want handcrafting. I see your point, if we dont get enough of a market share it will hurt us allot. Im saying keep modularit open as an idea that if we do get the proper attn and are needed that much in SWG that even though there will be vendors with 1000's of mods there will still be good sales.
I dont like that idea of someone waltzing in whose not a DE and selling stuff overnight and giving the DE's who worked for it for months grief but i also know if we have the strong kinds of demand AS has well need something to balance out the amount of droids thatll be needed vs the pains of handcrafting slowness.
Well see what the devs throw at us thank you both for your input.
Gron_DM wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:Ok let's play I'm a character with 5 droid slots.
I feel that is the weak point in this argument. Unless I just gave the droids away, I doubt I could even get all my guildmates own 5 droids right now. And even then I doubt it. Many just dont want to be bothered with a droid because its too much work.
Decay, modularity, new modules, in the long run I dont care which options we go with. I just want us to get to the point where its fun and easy for people to have/use a droid.
I personally believe that the "slot monkey" approach coupled with modular decay and a minimum of one useful module per profession is the most desirable goal for making droids fun yet balanced. I also think we should move a bit away from combat droids in favor of more support for the non-combat professions.
I don't think that there is much that I can add here that others haven't already touched upon.- It is a new system that was introduced with the SW profession and does not require someone to unlearn past information about the profession
- The Components are fairly easy to understand when you compare them to the whole of the ship.
Adding a Modular system this far into the game may actually hurt sales even further, because it would add more complexity to droid selection and would mean that people would have to relearn what they already think they know about droids.
If you stop and ask 100 people a list of questions about droid functions, how to use the different droid functions, and the overall user experience that the person has had using a droid; you may be surprised in what you hear. The average combat person, which makes up the highest percent of the player base, knows little to nothing about droid usage. The sad fact is that many of the people in this group base their opinion of droid use on what others have told them about droids. How many times a day do we, as Droid Engineers, have to explain how to use a Harvester Droid, or a Crafting Droid? Even if each and every module had a discription placed on it, a Modular would lead to more confusion. not less.
The reason that the Modular system works so great for Shipwright is because it is a rather straight forward system. The point that I was trying to get across in my inital post is that due to how Droid Engineer is already designed, with module stacking and different modules performing different functoins, the simplistic nature of a Modular upgrade system wouldn't mesh well with the complexity of our current design. Basically, to create a system that would be easy on the user end, which would be the entire goal of creating such a Modular system, the entire Droid Engineer profession would need to be redesigned. The Chassis would have to be designed so that they could be sold independent, which would more then likely consist of an increase in resource requirements. The Modules would have to be redesigned, so that more information was added to each module, and stacking was removed so that the system would be easier to understand and they could be easier impliemented.
The Modular upgrade design would increase the work load of the DEVs without adding too many actual benefits to our profession. I'm not talking about the benefits that could be associated with our customers, but rather the benefits to us. I understand that any benefit to our customer is a benefit to ourselves. I am refering to benefits such as
- an increased dynamic in our crafting system
- more product variety
- reoccuring product sales
- an overall increase in our 'fun factor'
A Modular Upgrade system would touch upon very few of those points, without adding extensive additions to go along with the upgraded system.
Drashk wrote:
I just want to let folks now that I have been keeping an eye on this thread and that I am rather pleased to see everyone keeping a civil tone with each other. (Heck, AO even dished out a compliment or two. :robotwink
The only point that I can add, that I haven't seen touched upon is this....
The Modular system works great for Shipwright for two reasons -
- It is a new system that was introduced with the SW profession and does not require someone to unlearn past information about the profession
- The Components are fairly easy to understand when you compare them to the whole of the ship.
I agree with you wholeheartedly Drashk, and would add third & fourth reasons why it works for SW & wouldn't work for us:
3. The variability of the components lends to a challenging and interesting subgame where shipowners seek out the best modules for their chassis. How exactly do you do this with a L6 Item Storage Mod?
4. The space loot system flattened the learning curve. Had I not looted most of the components I needed to operarate a player-made chassis with my starter ship, I might have given up on JtL after hitting tier1. For this to be effective we'd need not only the system, but the loots & rev. engineering as well. WAY WAY WAY too much to be asking for, and frankly I wouldn't really want it anyway.
My vote for a modular DE system stays firmly at NO.
Omab Espeonugik
MDE Bloodfin
Message Edited by snoman321 on 11-12-2004 01:06 PM
JYCowboy wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
So just to make sure I understand something. The people who are "for" modular design, think we should have.
1. New things added or stuff changed, to get people "needing" droids.
2. A system where the modules and/or chasis decay.
3. The modular system such as SW and debated here.
You're saying in order for #3 to work, we need number 1 and 2 as well? For my part, yes sir
Actually I agree with that, which is exactly why I disagree with Modular design. Number 1 and 2 are far more important, and are crucial to number 3 suceeding.
Yet don't you think that all 3 is a little to much to ask for? Number 3 especially would takea total revamp of the Droid and database system. There are 30 other professions out there, plus a dire need for content. Don't you think all 3 is a bit much? Which Profession should start getting significant Content first after the Combat Upgrade? Which profession has a profound and significant impact to finally fufill to SWG (errr, after the Jedi)? Who creates visual icons (copy written by LFL) that should play significant roles in SWG daily life? Tailor? Commando? Pikeman? Who has a profession that may give birth to another profession?
Tailor, Smuggler, Ranger, and Architect. Probably in that order. Hopefully the CU will fix most of the combat professions and we don't need to mess with them, but we will see.
If 1 and 2, were implemented, I still don't see how #3 would add to more sales. With a true need (#1,) we would have plenty, modular design would actually mean less money. Modular Designas we know it from SW is not going to work for DE. SW has a customer (3 if you like, but there the same) that can use its products at every level. First level is least valuable as compared to what is looted. The customer needs Chassis at almost every level and they have variable stats to suit the customers style of use. This allows the Level system to require constant upgrading. Droids dont have a current Level system ON the customer. It might matter with the Droid Handler/Commander but that is speculation for now. Will the full build system support such a profession? Sure, until they go to war on the forums for a better droid design system.
Phase in #1 and #2 in this next pass and add more, and more Fixes anddrop in Candy until a major Expansion gives you 1 or 2 realted professions, ie. Droid Commander.TheExpansion might haveModular Design then as a total Revamp of the system. But thatwould be, um, years. The benifit then will be new situations calling for new things from your profession. Down side is you and your customerscould not grow with the system from a basic Frame Work and adapt or change it asneeded. As you can see I didnt address you getting more money but having, hopefully, a better experiance.
Yes,Im one of the passionate ones. I care and only offer my support.
Years? Ok I can live with that. However unless the developers start giving serious time to content, this game will not be around for years. People are growing bored, more and more they will be lured away to other games. JTL and the CU are temporary fixes, without a lot of content more and more people will bleed to other games.
So right now they are torn between "fixing" professions and developing content. Modular design is cool, but not a "fix" IMO.
Drashk wrote:
I just want to let folks now that I have been keeping an eye on this thread and that I am rather pleased to see everyone keeping a civil tone with each other. (Heck, AO even dished out a compliment or two. :robotwink
The only point that I can add, that I haven't seen touched upon is this....
The Modular system works great for Shipwright for two reasons -
- It is a new system that was introduced with the SW profession and does not require someone to unlearn past information about the profession
- The Components are fairly easy to understand when you compare them to the whole of the ship.
Adding a Modular system this far into the game may actually hurt sales even further, because it would add more complexity to droid selection and would mean that people would have to relearn what they already think they know about droids.
If you stop and ask 100 people a list of questions about droid functions, how to use the different droid functions, and the overall user experience that the person has had using a droid; you may be surprised in what you hear. The average combat person, which makes up the highest percent of the player base, knows little to nothing about droid usage. The sad fact is that many of the people in this group base their opinion of droid use on what others have told them about droids. How many times a day do we, as Droid Engineers, have to explain how to use a Harvester Droid, or a Crafting Droid? Even if each and every module had a discription placed on it, a Modular would lead to more confusion. not less.
Drashk, im kinda confused by this, you are saying that modularity would increase the confusion about droids ....then in the next paragraph you say people overall know little to nothing about droid usage....I hate to sound negative but that is a contradition. I know people know little to nothing about droids as do most DE's after a few months. So im sorry i dont agree that adding modularity would add confusion, i think the reverse i think it would be more intutive once the module descriptions were in place.
The reason that the Modular system works so great for Shipwright is because it is a rather straight forward system. The point that I was trying to get across in my inital post is that due to how Droid Engineer is already designed, with module stacking and different modules performing different functoins, the simplistic nature of a Modular upgrade system wouldn't mesh well with the complexity of our current design. Basically, to create a system that would be easy on the user end, which would be the entire goal of creating such a Modular system, the entire Droid Engineer profession would need to be redesigned. The Chassis would have to be designed so that they could be sold independent, which would more then likely consist of an increase in resource requirements. The Modules would have to be redesigned, so that more information was added to each module, and stacking was removed so that the system would be easier to understand and they could be easier impliemented.
I agree 100% it will be allot of work to implemment, as this would mean modifying the old system and creating a new one for a user to add droid to datapad then add mods....that would all be new. But i fail to see how this would negatively impact DE other then the fact the devs wont do it as they would decide it isnt important enough.
The Modular upgrade design would increase the work load of the DEVs without adding too many actual benefits to our profession. I'm not talking about the benefits that could be associated with our customers, but rather the benefits to us. I understand that any benefit to our customer is a benefit to ourselves. I am refering to benefits such as
- an increased dynamic in our crafting system
- more product variety
- reoccuring product sales
- an overall increase in our 'fun factor'
A Modular Upgrade system would touch upon very few of those points, without adding extensive additions to go along with the upgraded system.
Mind you im theorizing this modular after new modules and functions are added to DE so with that in mind.......a modular change is all about dynamics, reoccuring sales and fun factor. Some wont like playing with there droids but most ppl i know like droids as part of SW so most will like playing with em to make the droids do something useful. Modularity isnt about #2 at all heck that needs to come first right? Modularity is the ultimate dynamic it allows people to make any mix and match of droid function they could want. This convience coupled with an improved selection of modules would increase sales tremendously. I dont think this aspect of modularity should be ignored.
I am currentlystill trying to flesh out the Chassis Experimentation idea that is rolling around in my head and I hope to have a full draft posted by Monday. It could just as well fit into the same scope as the Modular Upgrade system; however the major difference is that it would touch upon more of the 'big four' that I just listed, then the Upgrade system would.
In the end please keep this on back burner after the big combat upgrade (and hopefully more usefullness from DE) is added. I think it would be the shiny red bow on the perfect package.
Great job as always Drashk.
bloody hidden html on a quote.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 11-12-2004 03:35 PM
snoman321 wrote:
Drashk wrote:
I just want to let folks now that I have been keeping an eye on this thread and that I am rather pleased to see everyone keeping a civil tone with each other. (Heck, AO even dished out a compliment or two. :robotwink
The only point that I can add, that I haven't seen touched upon is this....
The Modular system works great for Shipwright for two reasons -
- It is a new system that was introduced with the SW profession and does not require someone to unlearn past information about the profession
- The Components are fairly easy to understand when you compare them to the whole of the ship.
I agree with you wholeheartedly Drahk, and would add third & fourth reasons why it works for SW & wouldn't work for us:
3. The variability of the components lends to a challenging and interesting subgame where shipowners seek out the best modules for their chassis. How exactly do you do this with a L6 Item Storage Mod?
4. The space loot system flattened the learning curve. Had I not looted most of the components I needed to operarate a player-made chassis with my starter ship, I might have given up on JtL after hitting tier1. For this to be effective we'd need not only the system, but the loots & rev. engineering as well. WAY WAY WAY too much to be asking for, and frankly I wouldn't really want it anyway.
AudioOrgana wrote:
Gron_DM wrote:
I just don't think you are realizing just how low your voulme would go. Use my example above - JoePlayer is an architect who gets sick of the profession and picks up medic, so he just takes out his structure craft module, buys a med module, and never needs a new droid chassis again.This may make some customers happier, but it would also make people happier if they could choose a damage or speed slice on a weapon; that doesn't mean it should go in the game.
Assuming we have new products with much higher demand, why would our sales go down again?
First, you are making a hell of an assumption there - that there will be much higher demand. The likelyhood of more than a couple of decent products being added to our line-up is slim to none.
Simply, sales would go down because people don't need to repurchase droids. Read what I said above again : an architect becomes a medic. Instead of buying a whole new droid, he buys one little med 6 module to replace his structure crafting module. That's a loss of a sale with the gain of a tiny one - that would probably be served by the bazaar anyway.
The argument for module upgrades hinges on laziness in this case, coupled with the need to stock "everything". Neither of which are healthy or appropriate for the longer-haul. You don't want to have more combinations to stock, and that isn't a valid enough reason to severely cripple chassis sales, which are most DE's bread and butter. Modules will become commodified, especially if it doesn't take a DE to put them in. If it does, then we are no longer crafters but slot monkeys. I don't want to spend my days doing that - helping people buy less droids from me for no reason other than I don't want to stock so many model varieties? That's the opposite of what we should be doing here, but that's what it would boil down to.
GronDM wrote :
The A/B/C example there doesnt cover things like "oh i have a combo using this old x, new y and mid aged z components no DE makes...now i need a special order...nah ill just not get another droid...." There are many examples of why modular is better.
Think from the point of viewof having triple to 10x the demand you have now and add in that youll have 2x to 10xtimes more popular combos to make. That thought alone makes me really really want modularity. As for the decay i hope its not to far after we get our need issues addressed, ppl will adjust better if it all happens at once.
Again, falling into that "do it all" trap. There has yet to be a true argument for modularity that hasn't hinged on laziness or nostalgia. For all the development work that would go into it, all we'd gain is less sales.
In getting new modules and functions to actually have a purpose in SWG beyond medical, crafter and BH i think we can expect several new modules and chassis. I think you are underestimating the idea that theyre will be a demand for what we make.
What demand? We had TWO publishes devoted to us this year - do you really think with all the other professions in line we are going to see some spectacular doubling of our products? I expect a couple of new modules at some point, but what we have is what we have. And the one thing going for us, the fact that droids must be rebuilt to be reconfigured, would be gone. They expressly told us last time around that droids were NOT going to be made useful in the manner you describe, i.e. "required", nor will they enhance skills more than they already do.
The comparisons to shipwright are just false - that system is totally different as the fine tuning of components is much more diverse in that case. Once you slap in a level 6 item storage module, that's it - no chance of finding a "better" one for a need to upgrade. It's not like an engine, where you may desire one stat over another. Even with the few modules we have that truly benefit from experimentation, it's all one line, so little variety. To be honest, I've had as much fun on the ground since JTL just shopping for parts and finding the best combos of stats - this wouldn't happen with DE, because our products do not have enough varying stats across the board to make it worth it.
I didnt say we were like SW i said we had the potential to use the code they are usign to our advantage. If we do modularity and have droid loot then there will be a market for leet droid mods.
The devs will not allow that. I'm all for DE loot, but that type of system, as I very verbosely explained above, would not work for droids. There are many stats important on ships - and very few important on droids. It would become a game of who can make modules the cheapest - and you will see the bazaar flooded with level 6 droid parts. Mark my words on that one.
I know it sounds like an easier game to play, and it would be - but easier is not always better. In this case, it simply would reduce what foothold we already have. I don't think cannibalizing the sales of each and every DE because you don't like how many things you feel you must stock is good for the profession. Specialize. I have, and it's made me millions. It started when I stopped trying to do it all, and concentrated on what I could do the best.
All modular upgrades would do is commodify droid modules and take the power out of our hands, even if (god forbid) we are the ones who have to actually make the switch. We'd lose out big-time three-fold : we'd lose valuable development time, we'd lose sales, and we'd lose our power as DEs as well as the one thing we have going for us when it comes to repeat sales.
With no decay still in this picture what are our repeat sales?
As described above, people that need a new droid feature. Like my friend the architect I've used in examples throughout. Most people who play SWG don't start playing and stay in the same profession forever - there are very few of us these days. And contrary to popular belief, combat droids do decay - it just depends on how often they get /db.
Honestly, the people that are for this make me feel like they are holding a big banner in the air that says, "Please nerf me, please!" because that's what this would feel like. It's a nice little idea, but in the end it would just hurt everyone who is in this as a business. We need overall decay, but droids are in no position to have the same type of micromanagement that starships require - their capabilities just wouldn't make it worth it in a lot of cases for most players.
Edit : Actually, the more I think about it - the greedy industrialist inside of me thinks this may not be a bad idea for my personal wealth/time. I could just depend on other DE's to make the chassis (the time consuming part), and I could just run off thousands upon thousands of the best combat and harvesting modules on my server. Price 'em high (take the price of a current maxxed out R3/six modules=price) and I've got the same amount of money for less work. Now, I know many people don't care for industrialists, but man, we'd really make out personally with this one. Every droid you make would end up with parts sold by me.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-12-2004 05:32 AM
I am an industrialist also and i am thinking about thebigger picture here...If we get new modules they are required as part of the player experience in SWG, not just window dressing like it is now, you can expect a huge spike in the needed kinds of combinations of droids. To me that spells a doubling or tripling of what we need to create as total numbers of droids to stock half to 75% of the desired combos. This means ppl will be looking for droids en masse and theyre will be even more diff mixes of droids types to make....If you sell en masse already imagine 3 times as much sales!
Never gonna happen. The devs aren't going to make droids "required" any more than they already have. Valuable, yes, but not required more than is already in place. We've gotten our big load of new modules/fixes for quite some time.
What I don't think you are realizing is how, even if we got 100 new modules, we'd STILL be selling less droids than we could, because people don't need to buy a new droid to get it reconfigured.
Also you seem to think people would be unhappy to get to configure droids in SWG. People like droids as a concept, they are one of the things that makes Star Wars, Star Wars...letting them get to have some say in the role of theyre droid (assuming its actually needed) makes ppl happy. People like to tinker with there toys. Once we have droids modules and functions that are needed people will find taking the time to configure theyre droid to be ideal in its module selection to be a worthwhile pursuit....given what we have to work with now i agree there would be little point in modulesbut no one here can predict what exactly the devs are going to deliever for new modules except the blue and red names.
No, I'm sure some players would be happy. They'd be paying a lot less for droids and not have to deal with us as crafters but component suppliers. Again, you are hinging this on, "once we have (new) droid modules and functions that are needed..." which simply is not going to happen on the scale you would like. And, once again, even if it did, we'd still face the commodification of our modules to the point that anyone would be able to set up shop and assemble droids that real DE's make the modules for - and within a short period of time we'd be faced with the bazzar taking over our business.
It's not an idea without merit, but if you are really thinking long-term, it would totally change the paradigm of our profession in a way that would make DE the supplier of parts, not the supplier of droids. Even if it takes a DE to make the swap, there will be DE's springing up at every Starport doing it for next to nothing, and we'd be a module monkey like smugglers are now slice monkies.
I feel rather confident that the Devs are not going to be springing tons of new droids on us anytime soon, and to count on that would be folly. So would pushing for a module system that, even if we did somehow get a bunch of new droids, takes away all our power as DE's, even if we are required to make the swap ourselves.
In any case, if such a modular system were put into place, you could expect VERY little else for us - there is no way we'd get much attention in the other areas that we need it in if they went and had to rewrite the whole droid system to do something that wouldn't even help our profession, just commodify it. Remember, droids are seen by the SWG systems as pets, not objects; the entire code would have to be rewritten to accomodate such a thing. That's why the repair command on a droid is actually "Do Trick One" - the systems are the same. It's just not worth the development time to do something that in the short and long run would just serve to reduce the reliance on our profession, not enhance it.
AO