Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Project: Droid Engineer Modular Upgrade System Synopsis
JYCowboy
Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:55 pm
#53
You all understand that you are purposing a complete Revamp of this Profession. Nothing Less!
With such a concept, with or without Modular Upgrade, this is thetime to reason out what you need beyond "How do we build it?". Outside of the built better concept, what do you need? The Droid Invasion seemedto fall short giving you what you truely need.
1. Adventure and/or fun. (example: Quests, Missions, Loot Finds and discovery)If you gain the ear of the developers, dont ask for any less. You all are very intellgent and can figure out what would be fun to do with this profession. Brainstorm an idea that is better then makeing RIS armor. You are Droid Engineers. You make objects that can be programmed to do very facinating things. Make that matter.
2. You are in business. I dont know a Retail Manager that has said "I do this because of the customers." Dealing with customers is how you make money. If you cant explain it to them, make an email with the general FAQs or ULRs on your product. While they read it you keep doing what your doing. When they decide what droid they want and pay you ...THANK THEM. They are now an educated customer that trusts you. They may refer and/or come back.
3. DEMAND that Droids play critical roles in game content. This will insure you to have busniess of some kind. Droids are very important to the feel of Star Wars in this game.Why are they not used in base take overs? You might say Han Solo didnt need any droid for theFalcon but there was accptions. He used oneor two onHoth and C-3PO in flight. I sited an example in one of my posts here of potental droid use in SWG. That role will advance if Droid Commander is introduced. You will be the more important than the BE is to the CH.
THE BUILD:
You want decay. You want sales that can be depended on. So does the Architech and Tailor. You dont want Rare Resouces in a new system. Waaah. Deal with it, if it comes, as all Crafters have to at some Level of expertise. If you are a Master DE then I dont expect you to have any allowances from a Master Armorsmith. Its all part of the balance, folks. You make Droids! Part of the Developers idea of crafting adventure is finding that rare high quality resource you need. Many Crafters dont like it but deal with it.
The Modular Upgrade of Shipwright should not be copied point for point as it does not work for DE. Many of you have made very good points to that depth. If chosen, it would need heavy modifications to adapt to you and the ground game. There must be a system of decay involved and/or supply more advance than Shipwright. One of you posters said you didnt want to deal with servicing second hand parts. You might want to consider the furniture business that sells a finished product that you dont have to service because you dont have pride in DE. "Sparky" represents you and your choice of crafting profession. If you ask how can I take pride under this system of rules, use your voice to Change those Rules.
RE is dependant on Loot. DE Loot will cut into your market thus cutting you out of the picture quickly. The Concept of RE would need to be something completely different. I understand the balance set for Shipwright with RE as its new to the game and we now are growing with it. Advance Looted Ship parts are RE and are thus thinned out by numbers leaving the upper crafting market open. You are an already established market that does not need to be gimped by this interferance. However, you need a system that will allow you to gain reward like the RE. I have nothing to offer on this point but Im sure you can find one. Quest or Adventure loot only usable by DEs. Example maybe would be an ancient droid brain that unlocks some ...secret..., just imagine. Sad thing is if you add too much content like this then there will be a lot of DEs, lol... meaning more compition for you.
Decay has been kicked around here to be a needed asset for sales. One has proposed decay as a matter of expertise of installation and extraction of part in the Modular Upgrade. Another purposed time decay to be incorperated. Most accept that decayshould bedependant on wear from use.
The main thing here is you want your customer to cause the reason that the decay is happening. "Sparky" has got to be used. Ignore Space for wear because only Rebels seem to be using driods now. Kinda a limited market if you look at it. Many dont like the idea of having to supply parts to customers as that means they will have to keep a ready inventory or Overhead on hand. See above...Pride in your profession. You can survive the restocks on a weekly basis. You are intelegent enough to see what you sell the most and least. The parts or modules you sell can be as important and parishable as a well made FGW5 or T21. The point here is #3 above, Droids must have a vital role for use.
If the Modular Upgrade is used, what do we do with all the old droids? "Manditory Memory Wipe" All droids are here by ordered to be evaluated by Imperial DroidsUseCommitee for inspection and license. Jedi survived the Lightsaber Revamp. A device that takes componets I might add. Players seem to have less affection for droids now in the given market where its just an extra "toy". They have survived other major changes. In the end, this new system will make thier droid superior in function. If you think the player base would complain, just wait for the Combat Upgrade, lol.
Droids Modular or Not. I like the idea that Droids become different from Creature Pets in the Modular system. I like the idea that myfaithful "Sparky" can be modified to help me in the field for a special task. I dont have to turn to "Rusty" for thisspecial job that "Sparky" could do. Lets put another spin on this. I am pushing for more Star Wars Feel for this game in most of my posts.
C-3PO: "If any of my circuit or gear will help, I will gladly donate them" Hmm, sounds Modular to me and Artoo does seem to bounce back. Not Arthree.
Is implementing the Modular Upgrade a daunting task? Near the level of launching JTL from what I can see. Would you as DEs survive the change? We survived the Grind, Jedi Revamp and JTL developement and Beta. The game has more troubles ahead that we cant see and some we can. Those devoted to DE will survive and find the path of this profession which ever direction is chosen. Remeber you do have time to hammer this one into shape as Non-Combat class will come to attention after the Combat Upgrade. Currently, this is the most familar Frame Work, Modular Upgrade, that address changes to better DE crafting. The Developer Team know it from JTL. It would be nice to seeBeta Testing on this system. Problem is if it got to Beta is there is a push for it to go Live for the investment in it. There is no allowance for failure and it goes Live. Crack that whip boys.
Drashk is not trying to kill this idea. He has told us the real problems with it. They are real and if you understand what would you suggest? Modular Upgrade to DE is almost asking for a Packaged Expansion. Are you willing to totally abort this idea for a quick fix that falls short of DEs needs? Many of you favor it but choose to pass because it impacks the system too much. That is understandable as youunderstand there is limited time the developers have to address it. They will need to get another Box on the Shelf for LucasArts in another year, probably. Being fair to the Developer is good because they get so much flaming on other boards. Just dont sell your wishes for DE short.
Please, what other way can you make a droid that gives you what you and your customer demand? Is there a system in another MMORPG that could be a model here? Is there a combination of systems that might answer this question? Please, post it and let the DE commuity discuss it.
Gron_DM
Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:58 pm
#54
lol, so much for just kicking around ideas for fun 
i agree we need "need" first, always have...along with bug fixes ive been a DE since day 1 and cant stand that surgical droids are still broke, and protocol droids cant be named and so many old bugs....but i thought to some extent this post was here to discus the perks to modularity, which are many.
Think about this, if we are made into crafters that make thing ppl must have, like WS/AS and chef...this will mean the addition of modules and changing augmentation fo the ones we have in some case....that means even more possible combinations of modules in a droid making it even harder to carry every possible combo ppl will need....once we have need modularity would allow us to get more combos out to ppl as they could then customize to meet the new need they now have for droids....
This entire suggestion obviously hinges on having a direct purpose on more then 2 or 3 professions in SWG. Also decay has to be introduced in some way and every DE that posted in the "how do we improve DE" all said we need decay to tiggs,...what we cannot be oblivious to is that our users overall will not like decay, theyve been using theyre droids for a year now "gee why now do they start to wear out"
All the posts im reading seem to think modularity would be another novelty to the profession, once we have need decay could be coupled with modularity to great effect while increasing our ability to cover the differing and new module combos that would become desired by the community. There is allot of dynamics to adding need and decay, people will need more kinds of module combinations, droids will also start to wear out this means in the long run a greater amount of work overall...how much? who can say until we have our "need" addressed.....
Modularity helps answer several problems that will arise once we have a larger purpose in swg and out droid decay.
I was hoping we could kick around some different variations on a theme, that doesnt mean a carbon copy of SW but DE's currently operate on a no loot basis were as almost ever other crafting prof in the game has loot as part of there experience. There is allot more here to discus then just "We know need comes first and decay".
Sodan-droiddreamer
Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:25 pm
#55
Great proposal, Drashky, but pragmatically speaking in terms of dev time/attention, I agree with the below:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
This reprensents no small change in terms of time, too...and we might better consider getting our long awaited higher end combat products out the door on top of what we have now. Then...down the line, we can look at ground utility, ground combat, space -- all at once.
In an ideal world we could get both. IRL? I'll take my droideka and droid commander.
Gron_DM
Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:39 pm
#56
hehe id love to see them too, hope we see the DH/DC soon, and some more modules that make us part of the game
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Great proposal, Drashky, but pragmatically speaking in terms of dev time/attention, I agree with the below:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
This reprensents no small change in terms of time, too...and we might better consider getting our long awaited higher end combat products out the door on top of what we have now. Then...down the line, we can look at ground utility, ground combat, space -- all at once.
In an ideal world we could get both. IRL? I'll take my droideka and droid commander.
Straker_Atrella
Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:01 pm
#57
Gron, this is in response to your comment about Modular Decay vice Chasis Decay. Also asking it as a question to others who think this is a good idea.
Question; Which do you think your customers will prefer?
A.) Returning to a vendor that is there 24/7 to buy a new Droid very few months, for each Droid they have. 5 Trips in 3 months about.
B.) Returning to a Vendor, that is there 24/7 to buy new modules for each Droids. About 30 Trips.
C.)Having to look or search for not only a DE, but one who makes modules as good as your last ones, for every single module in your Droids. About 30 times looking for that DE.
My answer from a customer perspective is easily A. The number of people "attached" to their Droid, that would be upset by chasis decay is farless then the amount of people who would rather replace their entire Droid. If you make it to troublesome, they wont use it at all.
From a DE pespective, I far prefer A. I have zero problem interacting with people, I enjoy it and do it all the time. I would far rather log on and read what e-mails are on my vendor, then replace the Droids that were sold. The last thing I want is tell upon tell of people needing modules replaced. On our server, there are only 2 DE's that I know of who can make the good modules, maybe a 3rd, but I don't think he has the resources anymore. The workload would be insane. You may want it now, but in the end, the bother would lead to far less DE's.
AudioOrgana
Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:25 am
#58
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Gron, this is in response to your comment about Modular Decay vice Chasis Decay. Also asking it as a question to others who think this is a good idea.
Question; Which do you think your customers will prefer?
A.) Returning to a vendor that is there 24/7 to buy a new Droid very few months, for each Droid they have. 5 Trips in 3 months about.
B.) Returning to a Vendor, that is there 24/7 to buy new modules for each Droids. About 30 Trips.
C.)Having to look or search for not only a DE, but one who makes modules as good as your last ones, for every single module in your Droids. About 30 times looking for that DE.
My answer from a customer perspective is easily A. The number of people "attached" to their Droid, that would be upset by chasis decay is farless then the amount of people who would rather replace their entire Droid. If you make it to troublesome, they wont use it at all.
From a DE pespective, I far prefer A. I have zero problem interacting with people, I enjoy it and do it all the time. I would far rather log on and read what e-mails are on my vendor, then replace the Droids that were sold. The last thing I want is tell upon tell of people needing modules replaced. On our server, there are only 2 DE's that I know of who can make the good modules, maybe a 3rd, but I don't think he has the resources anymore. The workload would be insane. You may want it now, but in the end, the bother would lead to far less DE's.
I think this is a healthy view of the situation. I am completely opposed to the idea of module swapping, because I simply do not see the point; more accurately, I do see the point, and that point is less money for DE's.
On a personal level, I gave up the customer hand-holding long ago. If I still spent the 1/2-hour to hour or more with each person I sell a droid to (from initial contact to walking away) I literally would never be able to go offline, let alone do anything else in the game. My volume is just too high at this point. I always answer politely worded e-mails and tells (when I am not busy), and strive to "take care" of my customers, but at this point the idea of someone cold-calling me and asking me, "So, what's a droid do?" is honestly enough to send me to an asylum. This is why I moved to vendor sales late last year (just prior to the droid publishes).
Because of this point alone I am against having to become "slot monkeys", but I see this as a far more reaching issue than just me not wanting to be stuck with endless tells. I know the droid customers pretty well - I've madewell overa quarter of a billion in sales during my DE lifetime (nothing compared to old-time WS or AS, but I think that's pretty impressive for a DE, if I may say so myself). In that time I have observed a lot of behavior and buying habits, and seen the reaction people have had to droids and their marketing. I've found that while they do get attached to models, most realize it's just a shell - and they can simply paint the droid the color they want, name it the same, and it is the "same" droid. Most people realize that there is really no difference between their droid and one reproduced to look the same, and the will to have better modules is greater than some artifical nostalgia that has no in-game way to discern the difference.
I just don't see which DE's could be for this. Newbie DE's are going to be makinglow-level chassis, and by the time they can make better modules they will be able to make better chassis; do you really want thatnovice doc to be happy with upgrading his MSE until you can make level 6 modules? These are the customers it will benefit- the cheapskates who don't care at all about droids and will just go with the cheapest option possible.As a DE, you will make much more money long-termselling the more advanced chassis than simply replacing the old moduleswith new ones in an old chassis, unless they decay super-quickly, and if they do people just won't want them anymore once they reach the point of cost > value. They would become like batteries - and I don't think we need more consumables on that level.
Older DE's must see this instantly. About the only thing we have going for us right now in terms of usage is that in order to be reconfigured, you need to purchase an all-new droid. It's a capital investment. Contrary to popular belief, people do not mind paying top dollar for droids - if they feel they need them. I'd much rather see development time spent on DE making these droids more necessary, not simply reconfiguring the finite options we have now.
I am sure at some point long ago when this idea first cameabout I supported it, because indeed people did request it initially. However, I rarely hear that anymore, simply because most people have accepted how droids work and are just finewith it. There are only two small subsets of customers that would appriciate what would be a massive behind the scenes upgrade - those who want to keep the same droid because of cosmetic/nostalgic reasons and those that want to pay less for droids. The first group can be served by making the appearance/name of the droid the same, and the latter group isn't one I think we as DE's want to be gearing our changes for.
While I support a decay system, I think that will be a long way coming, and it should - because we only want it done if it's done right. Does anyone remember when droids werepermadeath? A few people cheered and I believe even a Dev mentioned, "It's better now! Now they will have to come back to you more often!" What really happened? People stopped using combat droids, which were a joke until thedroid publish, and were just "really careful" with their non-combat droids. Even though once permadeath was removed, and they were still OK little tanks (with good armor, before it was nerfed), the stigma still followed them until the droid publishes. Any type of decay system implemented right now is going tohave to be call-based (like customization) or time-based(like candles/lights), and neither of those are going to help our bottom line - people will just demand the cheaper droids (DZ-70's, etc.) when they have a finite lifespan.
DE needs to move forward, not continue reworking what we already have. A decay system needs to be worked on, hopefully one that won't make our droids disposable but subject todecay on use (and not juston calls, I mean actual use), but that is going to be far into the future.Combat droids already decay on death, and I see a decent amount of resales on them. To be honest, I'd rather sell one decentlydecked out droid for 100K than five over a period of months for20K each. Less work for me, same reward.
Thinking years into the future is too much for an MMO - it's overkill because so many elements change so quickly on a player-by-player basis. Although there are people like me who made master of their profession and stuck to it, I'm finding that a rarity - the chances that the person will even need the same type of droid in a year that they need now is unlikely for many reasons - from people changing professions to simply leaving the game. What this change would do is eliminate those purchases that keep us going - say an architect who becomes a doctor. Why buy a new droid when you can just dump your structure crafting module, dump in a med module, and be on your way?
The arguments for modular decay vs. chassis decay seem opposed to each other in the most practical sense - on one hand, people say that it's for those who don't want to change chassis because of theirattachment to the pet, but on the other handyou can't ask people to accept chassis decay on top of that and if we don't have chassis decay we become, again, "slot monkeys". In both cases, I don't think our decision should be made based on the wants of a few customers, but the service of the overall community as a whole.
Personally, when we get this new pass with the other non-combat professions post-combat revamp, I'd rather see it used to take care of those silly bugs (modules not working with frames, naming frickin' talking droids) and a few more useful modules to please people and make them want more droids. I understand that this onlywill go so far, as the market will again reach a saturation point, but a variety of products is what is going to win us new customers, not simply reconfiguring what we already have. Hopefully by the timeeverything shook down it will be time to talk aboutdecay actually happening.
For right now, however, the issueof modular upgrades really would be shooting ourselves in the foot - not only is it not going to help us short-term, it would make things much worse off in the long-term. It's not a solution to anythingand about the only people it wouldplease are role-players and cheapskates, and I don't think our priorities in making a success out of being a DE should be hinged oneither of thoseplaystyles.
AO
Gron_DM
Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:52 am
#59
Edited for this caveat yet again: DE has huge problems with being a necessary part of the SWG experience and bugs that need to be fixed...once this is accomplished..........
Well not all older DE's think of being a slot monkey as a bad thing(been here since day 1, albiet not as vocal as AO,Straker). Id rather stock a ton of modules then stock 10 of every possible useful combo,...and more critically in this case any modularity would be created/brought about AFTER the we'd get our need issue addressed....That means that you can expect the # of modules to increase meaning even more possible combinations. Would we make less creds vs whole droid packssure, but our customers would be happier and we would get the ability to not have to spend hours crafting the almost infinite combos available. Also after the need issues are addressed id expect all DEs to be getting a ton more biz based on what we would be able to make at that point anyways.
The A/B/C example there doesnt cover things like "oh i have a combo using this old x, new y and mid aged z components no DE makes...now i need a special order...nah ill just not get another droid...." There are many examples of why modular is better.
Think from the point of viewof having triple to 10x the demand you have now and add in that youll have 2x to 10xtimes more popular combos to make. That thought alone makes me really really want modularity. As for the decay i hope its not to far after we get our need issues addressed, ppl will adjust better if it all happens at once.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 11-12-2004 02:56 AM
ShirkiRed
Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:09 am
#60
I would be for a modular change out system if a DE was required to make the changes. I do think that both modules and chassis should decay. Module decay could be dependent on the use of the module, and chassises could decay when modules are added/changed out. The chassis decay would depend on the DE's skill that is doing the change out. Lower level DEs could buy modules from other DEs, but would damage the chassis more when they change parts out.
On the initial build DEs would install modules as is done now, and if a customer needs a new module or to change one out they would have to come to the DE for help.
As has been said by others, and I feel the same: the only way droids will work is if they are needed, rather than just a luxury or toy.
Message Edited by ShirkiRed on 11-11-2004 02:22 PM
AudioOrgana
Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:15 am
#61
Gron_DM wrote:
Well not all older DE's think of being a slot monkey as a bad thing(been here since day 1, albiet not as vocal as AO,Straker). Id rather stock a ton of modules then stock 10 of every possible useful combo,...and more critically in this case any modularity would be created/brought about AFTER the we'd get our need issue addressed....That means that you can expect the # of modules to increase meaning even more possible combinations. Would we make less creds vs whole droid packssure, but our customers would be happier and we would get the ability to not have to spend hours crafting the almost infinite combos available. Also after the need issues are addressed id expect all DEs to be getting a ton more biz based on what we would be able to make at that point anyways.
I think that is because you are falling into the "I have to stock everything!" trap. You don't, nor should it be practical. I totally understand what you are saying, and six months or more ago I might have agreed. However, experience has taught me that being a DE isn't about being a jack-of-all-droids, so to speak; if you are, then you need to make the sacrifice in terms of quanity.
I just don't think you are realizing just how low your voulme would go. Use my example above - JoePlayer is an architect who gets sick of the profession and picks up medic, so he just takes out his structure craft module, buys a med module, and never needs a new droid chassis again.This may make some customers happier, but it would also make people happier if they could choose a damage or speed slice on a weapon; that doesn't mean it should go in the game.
The argument for module upgrades hinges on laziness in this case, coupled with the need to stock "everything". Neither of which are healthy or appropriate for the longer-haul. You don't want to have more combinations to stock, and that isn't a valid enough reason to severely cripple chassis sales, which are most DE's bread and butter. Modules will become commodified, especially if it doesn't take a DE to put them in. If it does, then we are no longer crafters but slot monkeys. I don't want to spend my days doing that - helping people buy less droids from me for no reason other than I don't want to stock so many model varieties? That's the opposite of what we should be doing here, but that's what it would boil down to.
GronDM wrote :
The A/B/C example there doesnt cover things like "oh i have a combo using this old x, new y and mid aged z components no DE makes...now i need a special order...nah ill just not get another droid...." There are many examples of why modular is better.
Think from the point of viewof having triple to 10x the demand you have now and add in that youll have 2x to 10xtimes more popular combos to make. That thought alone makes me really really want modularity. As for the decay i hope its not to far after we get our need issues addressed, ppl will adjust better if it all happens at once.
Again, falling into that "do it all" trap. There has yet to be a true argument for modularity that hasn't hinged on laziness or nostalgia. For all the development work that would go into it, all we'd gain is less sales.
The comparisons to shipwright are just false - that system is totally different as the fine tuning of components is much more diverse in that case. Once you slap in a level 6 item storage module, that's it - no chance of finding a "better" one for a need to upgrade. It's not like an engine, where you may desire one stat over another. Even with the few modules we have that truly benefit from experimentation, it's all one line, so little variety. To be honest, I've had as much fun on the ground since JTL just shopping for parts and finding the best combos of stats - this wouldn't happen with DE, because our products do not have enough varying stats across the board to make it worth it.
I know it sounds like an easier game to play, and it would be - but easier is not always better. In this case, it simply would reduce what foothold we already have. I don't think cannibalizing the sales of each and every DE because you don't like how many things you feel you must stock is good for the profession. Specialize. I have, and it's made me millions. It started when I stopped trying to do it all, and concentrated on what I could do the best.
All modular upgrades would do is commodify droid modules and take the power out of our hands, even if (god forbid) we are the ones who have to actually make the switch. We'd lose out big-time three-fold : we'd lose valuable development time, we'd lose sales, and we'd lose our power as DEs as well as the one thing we have going for us when it comes to repeat sales.
Honestly, the people that are for this make me feel like they are holding a big banner in the air that says, "Please nerf me, please!" because that's what this would feel like. It's a nice little idea, but in the end it would just hurt everyone who is in this as a business. We need overall decay, but droids are in no position to have the same type of micromanagement that starships require - their capabilities just wouldn't make it worth it in a lot of cases for most players.
Edit : Actually, the more I think about it - the greedy industrialist inside of me thinks this may not be a bad idea for my personal wealth/time. I could just depend on other DE's to make the chassis (the time consuming part), and I could just run off thousands upon thousands of the best combat and harvesting modules on my server. Price 'em high (take the price of a current maxxed out R3/six modules=price) and I've got the same amount of money for less work. Now, I know many people don't care for industrialists, but man, we'd really make out personally with this one. Every droid you make would end up with parts sold by me. Just some additional thoughts I had on the way to the restroom, hehe.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-12-2004 05:32 AM
Straker_Atrella
Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:24 am
#62
AO, excellent points, 5 stars for you.
I also don't see how swapping out modules is good for us, how many more options do you need.
Ok let's play I'm a character with 5 droid slots.
1. Combat Droid.
2. Harvesting Droid.
3. Stimpack Droid, Trapping Droid, Power, or Bomb Droids. This spot is a variant spot.
4. Utility Droid, 5 crafting modules, 10 item Storage. Could also go 5 crafting modules and a data Module.
5. Some type of Medical Droid,
At first glance it appears that is a lot of options, it really isn't.
I stock, 2 attack combat droids, and 2 tank version.
Bomb Droids, Harvestor Droids, Stimpack Droids, Trapping Droids, and Power Droid.
I stock med droids that are all basically the same, yet are in different chasis.
Crafting Droids with Storage, both data and Item.
That's it. The reality is that stocking about 10 Droid types will make 95% of the customers happy. The other 5% can do a special order. I don't agree with the argument that module swapping would give customers more options. If you use all 5 spots you can already fill any need you may have. 5 slots is a lot of options, rare is the person who can't meet their needs with those 5 slots.
Far more people would be inconvienianced by having to visit a DE 6 times as often, then would benefit from this. The group of people who just can't meet their needs with 5 slots is small.
AudioOrgana
Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:38 am
#63
Straker_Atrella wrote:The reality is that stocking about 10 Droid types will make 95% of the customers happy. The other 5% can do a special order. I don't agree with the argument that module swapping would give customers more options. If you use all 5 spots you can already fill any need you may have. 5 slots is a lot of options, rare is the person who can't meet their needs with those 5 slots.Far more people would be inconvienianced by having to visit a DE 6 times as often, then would benefit from this. The group of people who just can't meet their needs with 5 slots is small.
Agreed on both counts.
First, you are absoultely correct - I stock about six types of droids. I stock a lot of them, they are high-quality, and I always make sure they are available. I also have what many would consider premium prices. These are combat (my specialty), harvest (just because they require simmilar materials and are always so popular), and a basic surgical droid (just because I got sick of being asked ten times a week "why don't you have medical droids?"). People come to me when they want to immediately get a droid that does one of these functions, and does it well. People know what I sell (dedicated-task buffed up stock models) and come to me for that; and when they want a tricked out R3 with a repair, item, data, structure craft, avian effect, musician recorder, they know to find a hand crafting DE.
I'd disagree with the 95% figure (but I know that's just a figure you were using as an example), because I have found that the smaller DE's that cooperate with me (even when we have never spoken) instead of trying to outdo me can keep quite busy and do as well as a handcrafting DE could. I am in this to make money - I love droids, but that's not my reason for being a DE these days - I'd have tried a half dozen professions so far if it wasn't continuing to be profitable. Lots of people want handcrafted droids, they just can't always find them. The only special orders I do these days (about once a week) is when someone desperately e-mails me saying, "I've been looking for a week for someone to make this droid for me with X different modules, and I can't find a DE to do a custom order - you're my only hope!" It happens more often than you think (well, not the you're my only hope thing, but sometimes, no joke).
How this relates to module swapping is simple - this would turn it into a reverse situation of the current Industrial/Handcraft paradigm. I joked above about how this would be good for someone like me, as making chassis in a factory is hard work. I won't get into the whole debate as to which is harder (I've come to believe they are about equal, but in different ways), but nonetheless making a couple hundred droids in a factory takes a lot of resources, a lot of planning, a lot of moving crates endlessly from factory to storage to factory again, and a lot of patience - anyone who has ever moved a couple hundred crates of varying parts at once can attest to the mind-numb it gives you.
Personally, I think I would only make high-level modules and put 'em for sale. I wouldn't bother with the chassis anymore. I can sell those high-level modules that I make for about what I'm selling the first droid now - I know my customers, and they'd still pay it to get the function. I could run 1 or 2 factories instead of 3-6 like I do now.
The one gate to industrial engineering is handling a network of such sheer volume, and I could get most of the benefits with a whole lot less of the headache. But do you know what other people will do? Pick up DE and Master Merchant, and stock 1000 frames and 3000 modules at once and just blow every DE out of the water. Why? Because module upgrade will take the big advantage of hand-crafters (custom building to specs) and totally eliminate the need. I'll hang in there for awhile by making high-level experimented modules (combat and harvesting, mainly) because I still have those rare resources, but there will be new Industrialists in town. You will eliminate the one true gate to Industrial droid production - the fact that we can't customize our droids. People will be thinking :
"Why go to a handcrafter ever if you can always get everything you want from a vendor?"
Heck, even the bazaar. Think about it - how long before level 6 item, data, and medical modules show up on the bazaar for 6K? And then chassis? There are people out there selling level 6 flight computers for 3K - there will be people who will flood the market with DE components and commodify them into the molecular clamps and upgrade kits of the DE profession. Only in this case, it will be ALL of our products. Bye bye DE.
Even if they make it so only DE's can modify droids, how much are you going to be charging people for the "service"? When someone shows up with an R3 that someone else made and they want you to put one module in? Worse, they buy all the modules and chassis off the bazaar and come to you to "put it together!!!d00d!it don't cost u nuthin!" Either way, everyones sales are going to tank - at least the REAL DE's.
So, best case scenario, we become slot monkies the whole lot of us, where people are asking you to put in modules from Industrial crafters like me who are doing a whole lot less work now than before, and you aren't even selling a full droid anymore. You say you wouldn't do that? Someone would. "I'll put together any droid for 5K - u buy parts from bazaar then come to me!" - I can hear the starport spam now. Worst case scenario, people buy a chassis and some modules (and maybe a "assembly tool", if we are lucky) and make their own droid. We supply components only, and the bazaar factor means vendor sales die. Neither one sounds like much fun to me.
This not only should be dropped as a possible request for development time and actively turned into something we say we never want - we'd loose every bit of power we've so slowly gained. Being a DE isn't nearly the hell it used to be - it's only gotten better, and if they can just give us a few more bits of attention (some new droids, decay, loot) we'd be on pretty equal footing with the non-WS/AS crafting professions. Commodifing our products into pieces would be two steps forward, a thousand steps back. I'd rather be a DE back in the days where item and data storage didn't even work and all we had to sell was crafting and medic droids, 'cause at least even then we got to create something and not just schill spare parts.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-12-2004 08:47 AM
Gron_DM
Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:50 am
#64
CAVEAT: Need and bugs first modularity/decay second
AudioOrgana wrote:
Gron_DM wrote:
Well not all older DE's think of being a slot monkey as a bad thing(been here since day 1, albiet not as vocal as AO,Straker). Id rather stock a ton of modules then stock 10 of every possible useful combo,...and more critically in this case any modularity would be created/brought about AFTER the we'd get our need issue addressed....That means that you can expect the # of modules to increase meaning even more possible combinations. Would we make less creds vs whole droid packssure, but our customers would be happier and we would get the ability to not have to spend hours crafting the almost infinite combos available. Also after the need issues are addressed id expect all DEs to be getting a ton more biz based on what we would be able to make at that point anyways.
I think that is because you are falling into the "I have to stock everything!" trap. You don't, nor should it be practical. I totally understand what you are saying, and six months or more ago I might have agreed. However, experience has taught me that being a DE isn't about being a jack-of-all-droids, so to speak; if you are, then you need to make the sacrifice in terms of quanity.
No im not thinking i need to stock everythign far from it, it is difficult to massstock the most commonly desired droid sets.
I just don't think you are realizing just how low your voulme would go. Use my example above - JoePlayer is an architect who gets sick of the profession and picks up medic, so he just takes out his structure craft module, buys a med module, and never needs a new droid chassis again.This may make some customers happier, but it would also make people happier if they could choose a damage or speed slice on a weapon; that doesn't mean it should go in the game.
Assuming we have new products with much higher demand, why would our sales go down again?
The argument for module upgrades hinges on laziness in this case, coupled with the need to stock "everything". Neither of which are healthy or appropriate for the longer-haul. You don't want to have more combinations to stock, and that isn't a valid enough reason to severely cripple chassis sales, which are most DE's bread and butter. Modules will become commodified, especially if it doesn't take a DE to put them in. If it does, then we are no longer crafters but slot monkeys. I don't want to spend my days doing that - helping people buy less droids from me for no reason other than I don't want to stock so many model varieties? That's the opposite of what we should be doing here, but that's what it would boil down to.
GronDM wrote :
The A/B/C example there doesnt cover things like "oh i have a combo using this old x, new y and mid aged z components no DE makes...now i need a special order...nah ill just not get another droid...." There are many examples of why modular is better.
Think from the point of viewof having triple to 10x the demand you have now and add in that youll have 2x to 10xtimes more popular combos to make. That thought alone makes me really really want modularity. As for the decay i hope its not to far after we get our need issues addressed, ppl will adjust better if it all happens at once.
Again, falling into that "do it all" trap. There has yet to be a true argument for modularity that hasn't hinged on laziness or nostalgia. For all the development work that would go into it, all we'd gain is less sales.
In getting new modules and functions to actually have a purpose in SWG beyond medical, crafter and BH i think we can expect several new modules and chassis. I think you are underestimating the idea that theyre will be a demand for what we make.
The comparisons to shipwright are just false - that system is totally different as the fine tuning of components is much more diverse in that case. Once you slap in a level 6 item storage module, that's it - no chance of finding a "better" one for a need to upgrade. It's not like an engine, where you may desire one stat over another. Even with the few modules we have that truly benefit from experimentation, it's all one line, so little variety. To be honest, I've had as much fun on the ground since JTL just shopping for parts and finding the best combos of stats - this wouldn't happen with DE, because our products do not have enough varying stats across the board to make it worth it.
I didnt say we were like SW i said we had the potential to use the code they are usign to our advantage. If we do modularity and have droid loot then there will be a market for leet droid mods.
I know it sounds like an easier game to play, and it would be - but easier is not always better. In this case, it simply would reduce what foothold we already have. I don't think cannibalizing the sales of each and every DE because you don't like how many things you feel you must stock is good for the profession. Specialize. I have, and it's made me millions. It started when I stopped trying to do it all, and concentrated on what I could do the best.
All modular upgrades would do is commodify droid modules and take the power out of our hands, even if (god forbid) we are the ones who have to actually make the switch. We'd lose out big-time three-fold : we'd lose valuable development time, we'd lose sales, and we'd lose our power as DEs as well as the one thing we have going for us when it comes to repeat sales.
With no decay still in this picture what are our repeat sales?
Honestly, the people that are for this make me feel like they are holding a big banner in the air that says, "Please nerf me, please!" because that's what this would feel like. It's a nice little idea, but in the end it would just hurt everyone who is in this as a business. We need overall decay, but droids are in no position to have the same type of micromanagement that starships require - their capabilities just wouldn't make it worth it in a lot of cases for most players.
Edit : Actually, the more I think about it - the greedy industrialist inside of me thinks this may not be a bad idea for my personal wealth/time. I could just depend on other DE's to make the chassis (the time consuming part), and I could just run off thousands upon thousands of the best combat and harvesting modules on my server. Price 'em high (take the price of a current maxxed out R3/six modules=price) and I've got the same amount of money for less work. Now, I know many people don't care for industrialists, but man, we'd really make out personally with this one. Every droid you make would end up with parts sold by me.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-12-2004 05:32 AM
I am an industrialist also and i am thinking about thebigger picture here...If we get new modules they are required as part of the player experience in SWG, not just window dressing like it is now, you can expect a huge spike in the needed kinds of combinations of droids. To me that spells a doubling or tripling of what we need to create as total numbers of droids to stock half to 75% of the desired combos. This means ppl will be looking for droids en masse and theyre will be even more diff mixes of droids types to make....If you sell en masse already imagine 3 times as much sales!
Also you seem to think people would be unhappy to get to configure droids in SWG. People like droids as a concept, they are one of the things that makes Star Wars, Star Wars...letting them get to have some say in the role of theyre droid (assuming its actually needed) makes ppl happy. People like to tinker with there toys. Once we have droids modules and functions that are needed people will find taking the time to configure theyre droid to be ideal in its module selection to be a worthwhile pursuit....given what we have to work with now i agree there would be little point in modulesbut no one here can predict what exactly the devs are going to deliever for new modules except the blue and red names.
Gron_DM
Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:55 am
#65
Straker im talking about after we get need here, that list will triple with demand there will be 30 good highly desired combos if we get the attn we need to really be part of SWG. This is just pointing out how many we have now, add one good crafting mod that helps all crafters you just tripled the kinds of needed crafting droids. Add 1 combat support mod that is needed and you doubled totripled the kinds of combat droids needed...add 2 combat support mods that would be useful take that multiplier up to 10 times easy. Have you seen the sales volume on a AS/WS/Chef? it is very very fast paced, i sell my just droids now quick i can only imagine what itll be like to have 3 to 10 times more demand for my product as ppl will need droids then to be competitve.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
AO, excellent points, 5 stars for you.
I also don't see how swapping out modules is good for us, how many more options do you need.
Ok let's play I'm a character with 5 droid slots.
1. Combat Droid.
2. Harvesting Droid.
3. Stimpack Droid, Trapping Droid, Power, or Bomb Droids. This spot is a variant spot.
4. Utility Droid, 5 crafting modules, 10 item Storage. Could also go 5 crafting modules and a data Module.
5. Some type of Medical Droid,
At first glance it appears that is a lot of options, it really isn't.
I stock, 2 attack combat droids, and 2 tank version.
Bomb Droids, Harvestor Droids, Stimpack Droids, Trapping Droids, and Power Droid.
I stock med droids that are all basically the same, yet are in different chasis.
Crafting Droids with Storage, both data and Item.
That's it. The reality is that stocking about 10 Droid types will make 95% of the customers happy. The other 5% can do a special order. I don't agree with the argument that module swapping would give customers more options. If you use all 5 spots you can already fill any need you may have. 5 slots is a lot of options, rare is the person who can't meet their needs with those 5 slots.
Far more people would be inconvienianced by having to visit a DE 6 times as often, then would benefit from this. The group of people who just can't meet their needs with 5 slots is small.