Droid Engineer Archive

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Tailor, Smuggler, Ranger, and Architect. Probably in that order. Hopefully the CU will fix most of the combat professions and we don't need to mess with them, but we will see.

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Offtopic, and largely irrelevant, but I wanna say it anyway:

More like Smuggler, Squad Leader (hopefully the CU and GCW revamps will take care of most of their needs, but they still have a lot of issues that I don't think will get covered), Ranger, Entertainers (yeah all of them). These are the most broken profs in the game. The crafting profs are, as a whole, the least trouble category, and though they all need some things, they all have a way to function and make money.

Message Edited by JYCowboy on 11-14-2004 12:30 PM

As i posted in drashks last post on modularity, i see modularity as a good finalization once we have a proper market share as our droids will have high demand. But given that we probably wont see a truly strong droid market/demand for a long long time i dont think we will see modularity or a need for it until then. I understand we had a publish already and so that means we shouldnt expect to much for awhile its more of a matter of it being a shame. Our products even in not directly required should at least be so useful that ppl will have the need to buy them in much higher demand. As it is now a handful of DE's can supply a galaxy.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Now people will say "well if the modules decay," he will be back. You may be right, yet you are being very unrealistic on how much time the Devs have to add Modular Design AND Decay. We have much better chance of getting Decay without revamping the whole Droid system.

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SmallpoxA wrote:

I became a DE because I wanted to have a "one-stop shop" for pilots. I have been a shipwright for a two month JTL beta and ever since JTL went live. I have come to one conclusion--why don't droids work the way ships do? I have even had a few customers ask this same question.

The advantages of a modular droid system are obvious, so I won't harp on those. However, I would like to address some of the cons you have listed:

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Just so you know, I am the same user as SmallpoxA. Forgive me, the login did not do the right thing, and I didn't notice it until after I had posted.

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AudioOrgana wrote:

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SmallpoxA wrote:

I became a DE because I wanted to have a "one-stop shop" for pilots. I have been a shipwright for a two month JTL beta and ever since JTL went live. I have come to one conclusion--why don't droids work the way ships do? I have even had a few customers ask this same question.

The advantages of a modular droid system are obvious, so I won't harp on those. However, I would like to address some of the cons you have listed:

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First, the "benefits" of a modular system are not obvious - instead of attempting to tear down others arguments perhaps you should try to sell us on why we'd want modularity, because I can't see a single reason besides "some people would think it was cool". If you just became a DE after being a Shipwright, then you are very new to this profession, and it seems you want to turn it to what you are familiar with without understanding the core issues of DE - I've been a DE since beta (the ORIGINAL beta), so forgive me if I take on an authoratitive tone.

I was not trying to "tear down" anyone's arguments. In fact, I was not aware that this was an argument. I viewed this thread as more of a focus thread that folks could contribute to in a positive way.

In addition, I am not looking at this through a shipwright's eyes, but more from the perspective of my customers. For example, I hadmany customer who have bought astromech droids with a low certification level of '2' come back and ask me if it was possible to upgrade the droid that they had previously purchased. As another example, I have had other customers ask if they could upgrade droids they already had to serve as astromech droids. This isn't just a question of being "cool", it's the way that complex machinery works in real life. I can buy a PC with one hard drive and go out later and add another, and perhaps a DVD writer--but I don't have buy a whole new PC.

As to why droids don't work like ships, it's very simple and I have already addressed it in this thread : ship components have more stats than even the most complex droid. It's nice you like how ships work, but it would never work with droids in the same way. Droids have one line of effective experimentation at the most - even ship components that only have one "stat" that affects power/gameplay, you also need to worry about the mass, HP, reactor drain and armor. Droids have no need for such a complex system, because even if this was changed the function or our droids wouldn't and it would be a monumental "overkill".

I somewhat agree with this statement. However, I view modularity being more useful from a functional perspective, not a performance perspective. In my opinion, attaching certifications to modules would make varying levels of modules more useful, much the way they have done with data modules with regard to pilots. It would be practical if they did this with medical modules as well; it is somewhat unfair that a novice medic and a master doctor can each take advantage of a droid equipped with the highest level medical modules. In addition, we create a revenue stream for ourselves if our customers can simply buy the module with the next highest certification level. In addition, it would be great to see existing modules provide players with more benefit; for example, entertainment modules that actually improve an entertainer's ability to head (of course, certification levels would be essential here, as I have proposed with medical modules).

Droids will never be as operationally complex as a Starship, nor would I want them to be. I'm sure some DE is sitting out there with fantasies of making custom motors to make droids run faster/slower, or other trivial things, but minutiae of this type is just...useless. I mean, yeah, it would be cool (in some ways) for those people that just like to tinker with droids, but overall it would be an exersise in tedium with no tangible benefit. It took them an entire game publish to rewrite the code for combat droid stats - even if this was desirable it's not even feasable. And contrary to what you say, this *IS* an essential issue that we must take into consideration in all SWG discussion - effort vs. benefit. It doesn't work that way around here - unless we can convince "them" that it's feasable, they won't even look at the design.

Hmmm...I don't recall asking for this. All I'm asking for is the ability to insert new modules, remove old ones. Nothing nearly as complex as ships.

If we somehow magically got another Publish devoted to us (after getting TWO this year) - like, all the Smuggler/Squad Leader/Ranger/Merchant/etc. revamps get pushed back...again...for us - I sure as heck don't want to see it wasted on this. I'd much rather see new, useful droids, and DECAY, not a reorganization of a system to make it more like another profession that is totally different than what DE is or needs to be. You are asking to change the ENTIRE paradigm under which our profession works because...it would be cool to change out parts?

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see one decent argument for this besides..."some people would enjoy it because it's star warsy" or "customers have asked about why it's not like ships". I'm not worried about price cutting, I'm worried about price GUTTING. If you can freely switch droid modules, then you will simply kill what it has taken us a year and a half to build in terms of production and reputation because Droid Modules will become bazaar commodities overnight.

I think you need to go back and read about the history of the DE profession - your comment about Entertainer droids not having a tangible game benefit was addressed nearly a year ago. When we got these new droids, we initially complained about the same things, and were told that droids will never give "free checkers". In fact, we were luck to get what we did with harvest droids. The few people that are for this module change hinge it on "future additions to the DE profession" that ignore the fact that we've already had our revamp - over TWO publishes - and that while I'm sure we will see more modules eventually putting the bank on it is just a bad, bad idea. As to function, I'll give a shout out to the Entertainer module - it has the same function as a pretty dress/leotard on a dancer - it's a visual stimulant for the Entertainer to distinguish themselves in a crowded spot. Some people just think it's pretty (and they do require certification, by the way - novice elite professions). Yes, I suggested a small bonus to them as well, but the current system doesn't prevent that. You suggest it be set up like data - and man, if you want 6 types of every module you are tripping. Seriously. You will notice that except for structure (which got three levels), none of our new droid modules (new as in last winter/spring droid publishes) have levels. The good ones benefit from experimentation - combat, harvesting - and that's the direction we need to go in.

We will not get substantial attention for awhile - heck, we got so much with JTL (how many millions did you make this weekend everyone?) that we need to concentrate on more effectively using what we have now, not placing an artifical shell over the entire profession inspired by Shipwright, a crafting profession who's products may be asthetically and thematicly similar but functionally are polar opposites - you MUST HAVE a ship and components to fly, it's the main focus of an entire game expansion.

Like it or not, Droids may become more common or useful but they will never be "necessary" beyond what they are now - new uses and modules hopefully, but not required for anyone. This has been made clear to us directly from Dev postings, and again we are SO lucky to have gotten what we did out of JTL. Ask a Chef what they think of JTL - we are the only ground crafting profession that saw a distinct boon on JTL products. Tailors got some bonuses, but we got IN the skill tree. If you notice, however - there is nothing necessary about droids in JTL. Useful - but not necessary. This is, along with the "no free checkers" rule, need to be kept in mind during any droid development discussion otherwise it is a waste of time "wish list" that will never get seen much less addressed.

I understand how you come to some of your opinions, but you need to stop looking at us through shipwright's eyes. You've made a few surface observations and come to a conclusion ignoring not only the practical impacts this would have on our profession but also the paradigm the whole profession rests on. You say it would bring "the DE profession into their own right", which is adorable of you to say but terribly naive to what we've been through this past year and a half. You see, the Devs never saw us as "broken" - needing love, but not broken. They gave us that love with two publishes. There are thirty-odd other professions in this game that haven't seen the level of attention we have - honestly, only Jedi really saw more.

Instead of telling us as veteran droid engineers how our concerns don't matter, or don't matter to you because they don't apply to you, I invite you to sell us on this idea of module swapping, because I have yet to hear an effective argument for it. No one can say, "It will increase sales!" because it won't - it will markedly decrease them because a) we will sell less chassis, period, and b) one of the top reasons for repeat purchases is reconfiguration. Anyone who is for it keeps hinging it on either getting decay or all these new exciting droid functions and modules that we are magically going to get. That's asking for three things at once, and we ain't gonna get it. Trust me. Best case scenario right now is to get some form of droid decay going, and try to get a few more sweet modules with decent experimentation.

The crux of the matter is this : module swapping addresses no current need we have. It would make things slightly more convenient for a certain type of player, and it would be "neat" in a role-playing sense for some, but the acual implementation would destroy the few really good things about our profession for what is essentially a cosmetic benefit that by it's very nature would reduce our sales. I just fail to see where the logic is there. This won't make droids more useful, but the other things would. Get us decay first; get us some new modules. Then come back and talk about this - if I'm still in the profession I'll come back and outline the other reasons it would be bad - commodification of product, forcing every DE to be a slot monkey, lower repurchase rate (decay or not)- but the arguments that it would make us better in the long run would be able to be considered. It can't now, because without the two other components making modules swappable will have no benefit only detriment. This needs to be taken one step at a time, and doing this because "it would be cool" would just take all we've worked for and flush it down the oil basin just when we've finally come to a point where we are doing okay as a profession.

We have already had our revamp, SmallpoxA, and the way our modules and droids work "under the hood" has already been dramatically changed in our two publishes. It seems like you want to make deep-cutting changes to our profession without fully understanding what it is you are slicing into - and not only do I think the Devs are not going to be receptive to us suggesting another revamp to the way droids function code-wise simply because between the Combat Revamp, then the GCW Revamp/addition, and the dozen or so professions that have been promised their own attention, development time is going to be at a premium for the next several years. In that time, we will be damned lucky if we see decay, and hopefully they'll throw a few new useful modules at us when they can. But don't expect a profession-wide overhaul, which is what this would become, especially one that would plainly add very little benefit for a whole lot of cost and the potential loss of the few things that make DE great.

AO

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Jagged-F3l wrote:

I was not trying to "tear down" anyone's arguments. In fact, I was not aware that this was an argument. I viewed this thread as more of a focus thread that folks could contribute to in a positive way.

That may not be your intent, but that was exactly what you did. You said "I don't want to discuss the pros because they are obvious", which as I pointed out they are not, and then you preceded to take every single pro on Drashk's list and either attempted to dismiss the concern (even if you said you could see it), and the others you said weren't an issue.

In addition, I am not looking at this through a shipwright's eyes, but more from the perspective of my customers. For example, I hadmany customer who have bought astromech droids with a low certification level of '2' come back and ask me if it was possible to upgrade the droid that they had previously purchased. As another example, I have had other customers ask if they could upgrade droids they already had to serve as astromech droids. This isn't just a question of being "cool", it's the way that complex machinery works in real life. I can buy a PC with one hard drive and go out later and add another, and perhaps a DVD writer--but I don't have buy a whole new PC.

To begin with, "real life" has nothing to do with this. That goes under the "cool" category. Yes, it's "cool" when things reflect reality like that, however not at the expense of gameplay. You mentioned shipwright many times in your message, so forgive me for thinking a lot of your opinion comes from your experience in that profession.

As to customer want, yes, customers would love to have to buy less droids, and to not have to buy a new droid to upgrade. They'd also love it if when they got to Novice Rifleman if the WS could "upgrade" their DLT20 to a T21, or if their disabled vehicles could just be repaired instead of replaced. That doesn't make it something that should happen.

Again, you have given no convincing argument as to why it should happen, other than YOUR customers, who are buying JTL droids in your shipwright shop,would prefer to get droids cheaper, or it would be cool to imitate how a PC works in real life. Can't you see how selling one module as opposed to a whole droid is bad for our profession? Perhaps when you spend more time as a DE you will understand how vital these repeat sales are, because right now repeat sales are far and few between for most of our products.

You have no idea what a blessing it is right now that we are seeing such sales of the JTL equipment - admittedly the only reason you became a DE (so you could corner the market in "one stop shopping" as you say). Well, many of us are hard working DE's who have stuck by this profession since before JTL even had a name - back when item storage didn't even work, when all we had to sell was crafting and medical droids. As one of them, I see no possible way this could benefit us - except for course people like yourself who have chosen DE as profession of the week, or as an add-on to your existing profession, and don't want to be bothered to construct a whole droid, or even care that this would hurt the core of our profession. You are concerned about shipwright sales - not DE sales - which is valid as a choice, but it doesn't give you a ton of credit when you attempt to predict the impact on our profession gutting our droids like this would have.

Droids will never be as operationally complex as a Starship, nor would I want them to be. I'm sure some DE is sitting out there with fantasies of making custom motors to make droids run faster/slower, or other trivial things, but minutiae of this type is just...useless. I mean, yeah, it would be cool (in some ways) for those people that just like to tinker with droids, but overall it would be an exersise in tedium with no tangible benefit. It took them an entire game publish to rewrite the code for combat droid stats - even if this was desirable it's not even feasable. And contrary to what you say, this *IS* an essential issue that we must take into consideration in all SWG discussion - effort vs. benefit. It doesn't work that way around here - unless we can convince "them" that it's feasable, they won't even look at the design.

Hmmm...I don't recall asking for this. All I'm asking for is the ability to insert new modules, remove old ones. Nothing nearly as complex as ships.

Exactly, but it's because ships are so complex that they require a module system. There is no reason to upgrade a droid very often unless you advance up a skill tree or change professions. Ships are an entirely different beast, and in many ways the search for the "best" components doesn't even begin until you hit Master. It's a mini-game. There is no need for such a mini-game in the droid market, because there are not the thousands of variations in need like there is for ships. It would be a waste to implement such a system on droids, and again, the biggest reason of all - it would decrease our repeat sales dramatically. Customers may like having to buy less from us, but we've been fighting for a year and a half to get things for people to buy - and taking away our major revenue stream would invalidate all the work we've done to come as far as we have.

AO

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Gron_DM wrote:

Droids are the most complex item in SWG to produce, if everyone presumes that we get no new modules, and we dont...then modularity would obviously not be available either as the devs wouldnt want to code this either (harder then coding new mods) and/or it would be a waste of time on many levels (see tons of prior posts).

If the devs see fit to add new mods/functions that help a much larger player base depending on the types, number of them and how really helpful they are (scout trap dispenser ) you can expect crafting as a DE to double, triple or reach exponential numbers of complexity more then it is now. Modularity is a solution that answers that issue. Without a great driving demand we dont need modularity.

I have a bright outlook that we will get new mods/functions.............if anyones argument to shot down modularity is "i do not think the devs will add new functions to make droids more desireable" then that is just a matter of a positive or negative outlook and not to be mean but i dont think that is really going to help the discussion.

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I think you need to go read Thunderheart's postings about droids and "free checkers". I stated several times above that I'm all hoping for new modules and such - but we do need to keep in mind the limitations the Devs have given us in terms of droid functions.

The only reason I brought it up at all was not to "shoot down" modulatrity, but to counter the argument that the pro-modulatiry people seem to share, that "modularity will benefit us when we get all kinds of exciting new droid modules!". It's not an argument against modularity, but the perception that some people have that we have some big revamp time just around the corner.

I think we will see new modules as well - but I believe they will not be required functions buy peripheral ones, which is fine by me. However, I'd MUCH rather see what attention we do get focused on new modules and new droids for people to buy - not on implementing some module replacement system that's very intent is to reduce the number of droids we sell. Any time spent on this would simply be a waste - and keep us from that bright outlook that you and I both share regarding new droid features.

To really break it down :

Time Spent on Rebuilding (AGAIN) How Droid Modules Work = Less Time (or no time) Spent On New Droid Features

Modularity by it's very nature = less finished droids being sold and our modules being commodified

Again, no one has made any sort of pro-argument aside from cheap players and "cool" factor - it's all been trying to tear down all the reasons why people say it would be a detriement. Why would we go to all this trouble to make people buy LESS droids from us? There needs to be a damned good set of reasons to shift the entire paradigm of the profession, and no one can say anything but "heh, it would be cool to be like a PC".

AO

Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 11-29-2004 01:45 PM

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Jagged,

AO can get a little vocal at times, as can we all, but don't take offense, it's not personal. Yes he has been a DE for a long time, yes he can be set in his ways, yet if you give him logic and reasoning, you can change his mind and opinion.

See that is the problem with this idea. Many of us have given very logical reasons why this idea is bad:

-It would take a vast change of how droids work.

-Would require much coding.

-DE's would lose money.

-Droids would be even more complex.

-It wouldn't fix our need or Decay issues.

If you didn't just read Drashks main idea, then reply to that, you would have read all of that. I really am hoping that you did read the entire thread before you got into the discussion with AO. He wasn't about to repost every single thing, he, I and others have said. If you have not, please go back and do so.

Yet on the other hand, the best reasons people have said this was a GOOD idea are:

-It would be cool.

-It is how Droids should have been to begin with.

That's it.

If you look back, this was hardly a "my way or the highway" argument. The Cons of this idea simply tore to shreds the pros of it.

AO simply hit some of the highpoints in the last thread.

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