Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Thunderheart--on Utiliy in droids..can this be right?
I hate saying this.. but from all the discussion.. it almost sounds as if we're headed back to the "certs issue" for DC/DH.
"How do we make a Droid, capable of enhancing a skill... such that ONLY folks WITH that skill can use it properly?"
i.e.: Slicing modules that only Smugglers can use, etc.
Perhaps the problemwith our "utilities modules wishlist" is not so much Dev's misreading and/or ignoring our desires... but one of thewishlist's potential negative impact on the fundamental design (ofSWG)? Perhaps what we all want IS doable.. but only if the entire foundation for the game has to be "rewritten" in order to accomodate us... and that this upcoming series of publishes is their "best effort with the least amount of redesign and global gaming trauma" or even their "first steps toward correcting a more basic flaw"?
From a Systems Design point-of-view.. I can see how much trouble changes like this can be, if EVERY character class had to be updated and rewritten in order to be able to insert certification coding to satisfy our desires for expanded utility. From trying to reverse-engineer the resources trees (no not down to the source code... but to at least a logical model reflecting an accurate RDBMS schema-structure) I see indications that the system design (at least in the database structure) may NOT lend itself to rapid re-engineering.
It is entirely possible that they CAN'T help us without investing significant resources (read "spend the BIG BUCKS") in application and RDBMS re-design. It is just as possible that we will never, EVER know. 
just my .02cr
SWG-Runesabre wrote:Unfortunately, I can not spend more time talking about what my plans are with all of the communities in SWG. I wish I could, but, ultimately it's my job to deliver and that's where I spend most of my time; scheduling and driving tasks to completion internally.Message Edited by SWG-Runesabre on 03-04-2004 02:09 PM
Runesabre, I am sorry, man. You seem like a stand-up guy, but I have got to call you out on this one.
It is absolutely unacceptable for anyone on my staff to say "I don't have time to do this."
If something is important, you MAKE TIME!! I know you are busy. I know you have a lot to do. But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is it acceptable for you to complain about not having time to do something. You have choices, and you chose what to do.
If something is important, you make the time to do it. If you cannot make the time, you hire more staff. If you can't get the money to hire more staff, you are either executing a bad business model, or your boss doesn't think it is important.
SO: "I don't have time" translates into "I don't think this is important", "My management doesn't think this is important", or "this is a bad business."
But you don't work for me.
I would love to know which one of the three it is. I wonder how your management feels about your anwser.
I guess it’s just me, but I am not that upset by TH, or Runesaber’s posts. Disappointed, yes, but not upset.
It seems to me that they are starting to give us clearer guidelines on what they can and will do for droids. Skill mods are something that are not likely to happen. I am disapointed, but let's move on.
I understand that adding a slicing mod would take away from a smugglers abilities. Even if you don’t decrease the smugglers abilities, it is an automatic nerf to any smuggler without the droid. However the fact is they would have to nerf smuggler slicing, because to do otherwise would mean allowing even more powerfully sliced weapons into the game, and that would in turn affect the whole combat system.
Temporary skill mods are available through clothing and food, but not permanent skill mods. So even if doids do get skill mods they will have to steal business from our Taylor and Chef brothers and sisters. The only way to balance that is to make our skill mods very small.Now the balance becomes very tricky. It has to be a large enough mod to be worthwhile, but small enough not to harm the Taylors or Chefs.
It seems like skill mod droids are possible, but very tricky to implement. Which is exactly what Runesaber is telling us.
Furthermore it is not something that they want to implement because skill mods are already in the game. If we want droid functionality, we should be looking at new things for droids to do. There are some very good ideas out there along those lines.
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
Furthermore it is not something that they want to implement because skill mods are already in the game. If we want droid functionality, we should be looking at new things for droids to do. There are some very good ideas out there along those lines.
Message Edited by ArteL on 03-04-2004 02:20 PM
SWG-Runesabre wrote:
It is my intention to add more utility to droids but it is not my intention to do this at the cost of another profession's utility. There are a lot of ways to give utility to droids so we would prefer to invent new meaningful utility to the game rather than rehash or steal away functionality from another profession. The sum of the changes should be an overall advancement/enhancement to the game and not simply a rearrangement of functionality.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Irenik wrote:
To my knowledge the only professions/class (combat, healer, crafter, entertainer) that does not currently benefit from some for of droid is the entertainer professions.
You forgot:
- Smuggler
- Image Designer
...just to name a couple.
And don't forget:
-Every high level combat profession (except BH): CL 10 droids are of no use to them.
SWG-Runesabre wrote:
Excellent. So.....what does this mean specifically?
You've all asked us countless times to put forth ideas, suggestions, etc. to that end.
However, we have had precious little in the way of communication in-kind from the Devs on this.
What do YOU suggest be added, in regard to..."[adding] utility in a way that adds to the overall game and not a refinement or enhancement of a pre-exsting game mechanic."??
I think that most DEs will probably cancel if we get asked one more time to give you our ideas and suggestions. It's time for that door to swing the other way.
We've posted a fairly detailed plan two weeks ago of what we are planning on doing in Publish 7 and Publish 8 as well as what we've already done in Publish 6.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=24997
Unfortunately, I can not spend more time talking about what my plansare with all of the communities in SWG. I wish I could, but, ultimately it's my job to deliver and that's where I spend most of my time; scheduling and driving tasks to completion internally.
Message Edited by SWG-Runesabre on 03-04-2004 02:09 PM
Runesabre,as a non-DE,I can tell you that of the initial 4 items listed for Publish 8, the only one that any of my characters would find remotely useful is the Merchant Barker module. Kind of funny about that too, since Merchants were supposed to get the ability to hire NPC ad barkers in cities, but that functionality was never implemented. Now, I'm glad that you guys are finally adding that ability, but so far your ideas for how to make droids 'functional' just aren't doing it for me.
Hopefully, these are just 'What You Could Do By Publish 8' and there are more interesting and useful things coming down the pike, but going by the currentlist of items for "Droids Rebuilt" (and the "Droid Invasion", too), I don't think I have to worry about blowing my whole bank accounton droids any time soon.
To be honest, it's unlike that droids will ever be that needed and useful.
Strikke wrote:
I don't think I have to worry about blowing my whole bank accounton droids any time soon.
And that's just SAD.
By way of comparison, an MCH buddy of mine dropped 150k on a Kimo pet (and that, as I understand, was a heck of a deal). Anyone ever sold ANY droid at 150k?
I didn't think so...
/bow
Respectfully,
Dang, Tal-N, a useful posts from you. See, you can contribute constructively to this forum.
Oh so I post a warning of a possible nerf and I get called a troll. Spend 3 days trying to present the evidence and I'm still called a troll. Then I spend 5 minutes posting a few ideas and just because it isn't a nerf people like it. Geeuz I don't know why I bother trying to help sometimes.
Pallida wrote:
From a Systems Design point-of-view.. I can see how much trouble changes like this can be, if EVERY character class had to be updated and rewritten in order to be able to insert certification coding to satisfy our desires for expanded utility. From trying to reverse-engineer the resources trees (no not down to the source code... but to at least a logical model reflecting an accurate RDBMS schema-structure) I see indications that the system design (at least in the database structure) may NOT lend itself to rapid re-engineering.
It is entirely possible that they CAN'T help us without investing significant resources (read "spend the BIG BUCKS") in application and RDBMS re-design. It is just as possible that we will never, EVER know.
just my .02cr
I dont buy it...
Take a survey droid that only returns resource names and properties for a given category (say mineral) on a planet. How hard would it be to write a sql statement? Ok, lets complicate it and say it crosses different servers. They could always tuck a routine into the spawning routine to make an entry in a simple flat tablewhen it first spawns and use that for the basis of the query. When it unspawns, delete the record.
Another example. A droid that can monitor your buildings.How hard would it be to make a table that stores the location and serial # (not to mention recordid and server) of your harvestor/building in a droid and then take that information to run a query to get status?
Personally, I think the upcoming changes are a great disappointment. The net effect is droids are harder to make with out gaining desirability. On top of that we have to carry an additional 19 resource and half a dozen new components. If this is all thats being accomplished w/ 7 & 8, i wish you would just drop the plan and spend time working on other GCW improvements that could benefit people. At the very least how about fixing the 40 known bugs (which we have had 0 indication are being worked on). For every improvement proposed there's a negative aspect.
Im only a novice Droid Engineer on Starsider but here is what I would like to see:
Translator droid
(a player should not be able to know all the languages unless investing a minumum of 10 skill points.)
Slicer droid
(a droid to help the Slicer target what to enhance. Doesn't have to be 100% chance of success, but adding a better chance is better than nothing)
Radar droid
(droid that extends your radar and warns you of agros in the area)
Com droid moduel
(device to project holograms like R2 could in Ep 4)
TheRealTK421 wrote:
/bow
Irenik wrote:
To my knowledge the only professions/class (combat, healer, crafter, entertainer) that does not currently benefit from some for of droid is the entertainer professions.
You forgot:
- Smuggler
- Image Designer
...just to name a couple.
Respectfully,
While I do support the idea of a "Smuggler's Droid", say one that would set a hard minimum that a smuggler could slice, taking their skill level into account. Say, a Master with the droid would never hit below 25%. Won't give a bonus, but could greatly increase "slicing" mechanic that is already in place.
Image Designers are a bit tougher... The only way I can see a droid being implemented into their prof would be to make them depedent upon the droid to make their changes. I can imagine how popular an idea this would be for both IDs and DEs. I'm sure Image Designers would just love Droid Engineers...
I really don't have too much to say about combat classes and droids. The only roles it could possibly serve would be as either a distraction or a tank. The former is possible and used already in the game with the current droids. Tanking though is a bigger issue, one that crosses out of dealing with droids and into tampering with another classes skill set -- namely CHs and the "future", "potential" Droid Handler class. I disagree that combat classes should be using pets (droid or creature) as a tank without having to have pay a bit on the skill point end.
EDIT: Aslo remember that if there IS a DH prof brought into the game, DEs will be making their pets exclusively. There are no wild droids to tame. If you've seen the screenshots of the Corvette Dungeon, you can see a sample of what "might" be a craftable droid(in the future)for a high-level or Master Droid Handler to use.
Message Edited by Irenik on 03-04-2004 04:52 PM
Tal-N,
Tal-N wrote:
Oh so I post a warning of a possible nerf and I get called a troll. Spend 3 days trying to present the evidence and I'm still called a troll. Then I spend 5 minutes posting a few ideas and just because it isn't a nerf people like it. Geeuz I don't know why I bother trying to help sometimes.
I actually appreciated the post...but you really touched a sore spot. That's the problem.
The one combat-related droid we had got nerfed into oblivion. Then, it seems...we got sort of rescued via them rebalancing it to actually matter (as a combat 'pet' role that people would actually pay to use).
When you stepped in and said "No! Too powerful!", I'm sure that many heard our once-sold Probot being shoved into the garbage can again.
Also, since creatures are such an overwhelming choice of 'pets' for the combat roles, you'd have to agree that makers of high-end pets would get a suspicious eye cast upon them on these DE boards.
I appreciate what you tried to do (which was really to grab a "third-rail issue") but I think you failed to see our end. The one product we had for combat roles got yanked, then...just as we were about to see resolution on that, you stepped in made what was (to be honest) a compelling case for NOT making Probots sellable, useful and desired.
So...now....DEs are seeing that we may still have little use to make or sell Probots (especially do to the just-over-double number of components that will be required to make one).
/bow
Respectfully,