Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Once again nothing but air it seems.
The goal is to get the discussion thread about the Droid Invasion started by Wednesday.
BoberFett wrote:
You can play however you want, within the confines of the system, and based on the way the rest of the system works I'm willing to bet that they won't give DEs access to combat droids which nobody else can use.
ANYONE can use droids if they spend the Skill Points.
Nothing's free.....
Kollos wrote:
Third, it is YOUR CHOICE whether or not you want to spend points on Master Artisan instead of some other combat skill. I know several extremely successful Droid Engineers who are not Master Artisans. I happen to be a Master Artisan myself, but that's my choice.
Fourth, adding DE-only combat droids will flood the profession with new "Droid Handler" players who care nothing about the crafting side of the profession, and who will happily sell their wares below cost in order to recoup some small fragment of the money they spent to grind their way up to their new combat toy. Which means that pure crafters WON'T be able to just craft, because there will no longer be a droid economy.
Droid Engineer is not a combat profession, it is a crafting profession. If you want to add combat skills to your Droid Engineer character, then pick up a combat profession. That's what I did, and it works just fine. But don't force combat skills onto players who do not want them by turning the Droid Engineer profession into something it has never been and was never meant to be.
It's YOUR CHOICE whether you use combat droids. Don't use them if you don't want to.
Combat droids won't flood the profession if the skills to use droids are only in one branch of the skill tree. People can spend a few skill points and use droids. They won't have to take the entire tree to use them.
MDE-only uber droids WILL probably draw quite a few people who only want to get a super droid, whatever type it might turn out to be. JUST SAY NO.
DE never produced any usable combat droids before. Now we will. The profession is going to change no matter where the skills are placed. Who's to say what the profession was MENT to be. The devs perhaps???
Drashk wrote:
The Prue crafters are the ones that have stated that they do not want any benefits.
Hey Drashk Im a bit confussed about your statictics... and specially about that last sentence. I cant understand why you say that. I consider myself a pure crafter, being Master Artisan, Master Merchant and on my way to Master DE: I have no combat skills at all, and neither want to have them.
BUT I WANT BENEFITS FOR BEING A MDE!! Just I dont want those benefits to be combat-oriented. Maybe the ability to call three droids (power, repair and other), maybe a new super-funtional droid with some new modules.. I dont know, ANY benefit would be nice.
Does that exclude me from the Pure Crafter group??
TheRealTK421 wrote:
My take is...
Why shouldn't a Master DE, for example, get some 'perks' (such as using a special MDE-only combat droid)?!?
As long as any special MDE-only combat droid is COMPARABLE to other combat droids, maybe just a cool chassis, you won't have a bunch of idiots mastering DE just to get an uber combat pet.
I belive that ALOT of people are worried that this will happen.
And these uber-leet-dudes will have no respect for the profession - they just want the toys.
Make it easy for them to get their toys, and leave the rest of us alone, and we can all play together.
Make it hard for them to get their toys, and they'll just invade the profession and screw us in the process.
Neroir wrote:
BUT I WANT BENEFITS FOR BEING A MDE!! Just I dont want those benefits to be combat-oriented. Maybe the ability to call three droids (power, repair and other), maybe a new super-funtional droid with some new modules.. I dont know, ANY benefit would be nice.
Does that exclude me from the Pure Crafter group??
As I pointed out earlier, anyone that wishes to call out more than droid can not be placed in the pure craftersgroup. Being able to call more than one droid can be used as a way to indirectly increase combat function. Having 2 or more droids out, regardless of their combat abilities, could be used as a means of drawing an aggro MOB away from a PC, which could be seen as an added bonus in combat.This may be viewed as cutting hairs on the subject, lets face it, some people may have already figured this idea out and voted accordingly, in hopes of sneaking it in without voting for the combat only minority.
Why would a Pure Crafter need the ability to call out more than one droid at a time, if all they wish to do is craft droids? I appologize for casting the Pure Crafters into such an extreme, but as I replied to Kollos earlier, unless everyone is prepared to sit around for the next 6 months debating the subject in weekly polls, common ground needs to be made.
Maybe I needa boycott my own thread. How come my semi-rant is staying up here while my constructive one is getting buried? I mean, this was on the fact that the post wasn't out, not about combat droids themselves. If you guys wanna see the other post go here. http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=50070
I know I missed some good ideas. Lets give the whole thing a dry run there. What we want to see, what need fixing, and stuff like that BUT NO RANTING OVER COMBAT DROIDS in either direction.
Leadhead101 wrote:
Good lord!
If the master bot is the best combat droid and that goes against your principles, DON'T MAKE ONE! It's not like it is the only combat droid they are going to make! If the master bot is some bonus crafter GREAT, BUT YOU STILL CANT SELL IT SO WHO CARES IF THE MASTER BOT IS A COMBAT DROID!
I don't think you really understand the intricacies of the situation.
Many DE are afraid that if the skills for USING combat droids are placed in the DE skill tree in a hphazard fashion, everyone will be making combat droids and no one will be buying them.
The crux of the problem is this (pay attention).
If combat droids are hard to use - you have to take the whole DE skill tree or master DE kust to use them - WHO are you going to sell these 'best' combat droids to???
OTHER DE who can make combat droids themselves???
NOT!
Regular old players need to be able to spend skill points to USE combat droids.
BUT they shouldn't have to master DE to use them or we won't have anyone to SELL them to.
SEE?!?!?!
For a market to exist, people need to be able to USE them, but not MAKE them.
That's why making it easy for people to USE droids is GOOD.
Putting them in a position where they have to take most of the DE skill tree in the process is BAD.
SO, if they only need to take a few skill boxes in DE to use combat droids, that's all they'll do - take a few skill boxes.
But IF they have to take most of the DE skill tree just to use combat droids, they'll just make their OWN combat droids - they won't be buying them from anyone else, they'll be making them.
So to reiterrate:
Use - good.
Make - bad.
Ya, I know, I'm repeating myself.
Perhaps if I explain it several different ways, you might understand.
Or it will sink in, which ever comes first.
So here's the stumper.
If the devs give us DE-only combat droids - that you need to take DE skills to use - how can they do it so it's easy for people to use them without everyone just making their own???
How bout if only one branch of the DE tree had the use skills in it?
So people would need to take Novice Artisan (15),Artisan Engineering (14),Novice DE (6), anda DE Usage branch (14) wherever it might go.
People would actually be a little ahead in Skill Points if they choose to use combat droids rather than combat creatures since CH needs two branches in Scoutinstead of just one (15+14+14+6+???).
But the combat droids might not be quite as good as the higher level combat creatures they'd get if they took CH.
So you trade a little combat power for fewer Skill Points.
AND, we DE get to use the combat droids too.
Without totally ruining the entire profession.
Hope that makes sense, I can' think of any other way to explain it that you might understand without repeating myself several more times......
Trekkies? Droids? There were no droids in Star Trek. Whatchu talkin about Lead?
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Kollos..you sadden me, but then you always did with your completely selfish argument.
Let us do what we want to do, it really is no skin off your nose. Talk about the rich getting richer, pah Kollos, try starting now on a new server without your millions. I'd give a whole lot for a perk and a decent defense droid, and as far as I can see thats all TK is asking for.
Spoilsport Kollos, with all your high level arguments and experience of game design. Balls is the British expression I'm afraid, your just paranoid and selfish about the market..and for no logical reason. DE is a complete rarity as it is, I wish there were more of us.
And no, I dont expect you to see this or understand, your blinkers won't let you.
I won#t comment further, happily I was spared the ordeal of US debate classes, common sense in this matter is far better.
All your doing Shian is demonstrating your ignorance of the issue. You have nothing to contribute, so rather than being smart and staying silent you resort to personal attacks. Talk about selfish - you want your way so badly that even though you have nothing to contribute you'll step in and make personal attacks to derail the debate.
Doughbacca and I understand each other, we are just on opposite sides of the argument.
I am not protecting the droid market for selfish reasons - I make my money from selling resources, not from making droids. Anyone who knows me is already aware of this. In fact, anyone who has been paying attention instead of just reacting emotionally is aware of it because I have said it here before. I am protecting the droid market because in order for this game to remain Star Wars, there needs to be a viable droid market. People buy and sell droids in the Star Wars universe. Duh.
Progman63 has demonstrated that this debate is not without purpose - it's rather evident that he now understands both sides of the issue and he's trying to come up with suggestions that will satisfy both sides. He's participating constructively.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Lonkley wrote:
The idea that a MDE only droid will be so incredible a combatant will spend the 100 skill points (70 skill (MDE) & 29 (Artisan) ) is unlikely. No droid is going to be so spectacular that someone would go through all the effort to become MDE instead of taking on another elite combat profession. Also remember most combatants think crafting is lame and boring.
If we get a MDE combat only so be it, if we dont, fine. But to think it will destroy the droid economy is alarmist at the minimum.
Thanks for posting this. At least I feel understood by some.
I understand you, I just disagree with you. 
I think you understand me, too.
I have already met combat-oriented players who are picking up Droid Engineer ahead of time simply because they have heard that we're going to be able to make and use the Droideka. I talk to the people I train... that's how I found out. I patiently explained that we don't know that yet and that there's very little chance that we're going to be able to make Droidekas as powerful as the NPC versions already in the game. That saved a couple of these new Droid Engineers a lot of time and effort (they gave up on the spot), but at least one said he didn't care it was worth the risk. If people are willing to spend those points NOW, before we even know what the new combat droids are going to be like, don't you think that more people will be willing to do it once we do know what we're getting?
BTW it's 63 (MDE) + 29 (Eng). And it's not the "uber" combat players that we're worried about, it's the combat oriented players who still have points. Creature Handler costs what, 63 + 43 points? So 106? Add in 92 for MDE and you still have 52 points left. Which won't let you Master an elite combat profession, but it will certainly let you get pretty good at one. With a Droideka and a Rancor in front of you, the Sniper tree of Rifleman (29 + 20) starts looking pretty good.
So you see, all these arguments that it is safe to give the best combat droid to Master Droid Engineers are superfluous. They can't, because you could then take MDE and MCH at the same time. Or do you really want to be folded into the Creature Handler combat system? (They'd have to do that in order to allow for MDE + MCH.)
progman63 wrote:
If the devs give us DE-only combat droids - that you need to take DE skills to use - how can they do it so it's easy for people to use them without everyone just making their own???
How bout if only one branch of the DE tree had the use skills in it?
So people would need to take Novice Artisan (15),Artisan Engineering (14),Novice DE (6), anda DE Usage branch (14) wherever it might go.
People would actually be a little ahead in Skill Points if they choose to use combat droids rather than combat creatures since CH needs two branches in Scoutinstead of just one (15+14+14+6+???).
But the combat droids might not be quite as good as the higher level combat creatures they'd get if they took CH.
So you trade a little combat power for fewer Skill Points.
AND, we DE get to use the combat droids too.
Without totally ruining the entire profession.
Hmm... that's an interesting suggestion, Progman63. I'll have to ponder it a while.
Given what the Devs have recently done to CH, though, do you think they'd actually do something like this? They just spread CH usage all over the entire CH tree to prevent dabblers... do you think they'd do the opposite (specifically allow dabblers) in the DE tree?
I dunno. I like where you're headed with this, but given recent history I just can't see them doing it.
Drashk, you're mis-labeling the pure crafters.
The pure crafter group should be the people who don't want Droid Engineers to have any more combat ability than any of the other pure crafters (Armorsmith, Chef, etc). This is the inherent flaw in the groups you have created - you have missed the divisive issue within the Droid Engineer community and have split one faction in half.
Supporting multiple droids for Droid Engineers does not disqualify you from the pure crafter group as long as the extra droids are non-combat types.
Supporting a cert system for higher level combat droids does not disqualify you from the pure crafter group as long as Droid Engineers get no better certs than other pure crafters.
Wanting perks for being a Master Droid Engineer does not disqualify you from the pure crafter group as long as those perks are not combat perks.
See the difference?
You read that poll and got 31% pure crafters. I read it and got 63% pure crafters. Yes, we need some common definitions. But use the ones already in use, please - don't make up new definitions for terms we're already using.
Your groups are the "perk" group and the "no perks" group. Had the poll been labeled that way at the start I suspect the results would have been considerably different. Since the poll was labeled "Crafter" and "Combat" you must take the results as given. Roughly 63% of the respondants voted Crafter, roughly 28% voted Hybrid, and roughly 9% voted Combat. You don't have the right to move people from one group to another as you see fitin order to use your own definitions - that's manipulation of the vote.
Oh, and just so someone doesn't call me a hypocrit, this poll is just as useless as all of the other ones that have been held. I don't consider these results any more valid than any of the other polls that I have complained about. The sample size is basically irrelevant compared to the overall population, the participants are self-selected, and the subset that they are self-selected from is also self-selected. There's basically no hope that these polls reflect the opinion of all Droid Engineers simply because so few of us actually use the SWG Forums. There, happy?
/bow
Kollos wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Lonkley wrote:
The idea that a MDE only droid will be so incredible a combatant will spend the 100 skill points (70 skill (MDE) & 29 (Artisan) ) is unlikely. No droid is going to be so spectacular that someone would go through all the effort to become MDE instead of taking on another elite combat profession. Also remember most combatants think crafting is lame and boring.
If we get a MDE combat only so be it, if we dont, fine. But to think it will destroy the droid economy is alarmist at the minimum.
Thanks for posting this. At least I feel understood by some.
I understand you, I just disagree with you.
Yes...I understand you. You're starting to sway me over to your vision. You make excellent points that I hope will be taken very carefully into account for our future.
However.............................I know otherwise.
I have already met combat-oriented players who are picking up Droid Engineer ahead of time simply because they have heard that we're going to be able to make and use the Droideka.
I fear that they will be sorely disappointed.
I talk to the people I train... that's how I found out. I patiently explained that we don't know that yet and that there's very little chance that we're going to be able to make Droidekas as powerful as the NPC versions already in the game.
Yes...and what a travesty.We are unable to make droids that have any sort of real'punch' for all players to use. And...it will remain that way.
That saved a couple of these new Droid Engineers a lot of time and effort (they gave up on the spot), but at least one said he didn't care it was worth the risk.
You should find that guy and tell him to start looking elsewhere. His vain attempt at Mastering DE just to get Droidekas is ill-founded. Even I don't think they'd give us DEs use of that droid (at any level).
If people are willing to spend those points NOW, before we even know what the new combat droids are going to be like, don't you think that more people will be willing to do it once we do know what we're getting?
You just wait and see. I think you'll decide that we won't have to worry about this.
BTW it's 63 (MDE) + 29 (Eng). And it's not the "uber" combat players that we're worried about, it's the combat oriented players who still have points.
They aren't going to become DEs, I promise.
Creature Handler costs what, 63 + 43 points? So 106? Add in 92 for MDE and you still have 52 points left. Which won't let you Master an elite combat profession, but it will certainly let you get pretty good at one. With a Droideka and a Rancor in front of you, the Sniper tree of Rifleman (29 + 20) starts looking pretty good.
Yea...but that's not likely to happen. The Devs know all about how to avoid the CH problems of the past...or do they?!?
So you see, all these arguments that it is safe to give the best combat droid to Master Droid Engineers are superfluous.
As stated, this depends entirely on how it's done. Period.
They can't, because you could then take MDE and MCH at the same time. Or do you really want to be folded into the Creature Handler combat system? (They'd have to do that in order to allow for MDE + MCH.)
Hehehehe...I don't think we'll have to worry about that too much. Good thing there might be other modules (non-combat) that will be fun (I hope).
Respectfully,