Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Once again nothing but air it seems.
/bow
Kollos wrote:
Do you believe that the workers at Ford who put the cars together are as good at driving them as Michael Schumacher?
Yes...some are.
Apparently, you've never met some of the crazy folk that build cars.
Do you believe that the workers at Colt who put the guns together are as good at shooting them as an Olympic sharpshooter?
Hmmm...the "Colt Master Gunsmith"?!? Yea...I'm sure that they can hold their own.
Do you believe that the workers at K2 or Burton are as good at riding their snowboards as Jeremy Bloom?
Where do you think some of the best freestyle skiers/snowboarders come from anyway?!?!
Do you believe that the workers at Kawasaki who build their dirt bikes are as good at riding them as those crazy nuts you see on TV in the X-Games?
Yes...some of them would have to be. And...lemme answer your next question now.
Yes. Yes and.....................yes.
Do you believe that the workers at Dell who build the computers are as good at using them as the network administrators at the company where you work?
Heheheh...yea. Some of the people at Dell are even better than our admin.
Yes, please do think about it. The answer is obvious.
NO answer is obvious, Kollos. When we start painting discussions in black and white, any point can be made and backed up.
We need to start thinking about how our ideas would realistically and practically playout in-game.
We need to start thinking about what's logical and what makes the most sense.
We need to start playing the "What's more likely?!?" game.
Knowing how to BUILD something has very little to do with knowing how to USE that something to its greatest effect.
With all due respect, I disagree. This is an extreme statement and does not reflect ALL cases.
In some cases...
There ARE people at Ford that can drive as good as __________.
There ARE people at Colt that can shoot as good as __________.
Etc.
If westart giving ourselves all or none choices on our future....that's all we're going toget.
It makes far more sense for the combat professions to be able to get the most out of our combat droids than it does for us to be able to do so simply because they are trained in combat and we are not. Repair them? Ha! But use them effectively in combat?
Uhhhh....repair them? I thought we were talking about blowing droids up (along with starports and stuff)!!
Now I have to start reading the thread all over again.
Droids are designed to be semi-autonomous - which means that virtually anyone should be able to use them effectively.
Hmmm...then why can't we say the same thing about creature pets,hmm?
If you're going to draw a distinction between professions, however, make sure you draw the correct distinction. If you must draw a distinction, then combat professions should be better at using combat droids than Droid Engineers are.
I see nothing wrong with the distinction I make. I think that the possibilities are there for the future of droids to encompass my view, your view and all that are in between.
Oh...wait...this from the Dev team that brought us Holocrons (so we don't have to grind).
My bad. /bows apologetically.
Respectfully,
/bow
Drashk wrote:
TK, I was refering to a droid like the Omni Droid from the thread a few months back.
I don't know if I've seen this thread. I'll have a look (since I know how to use the Search tool).
The droid in question would only be usable by MDE and would allow for a combat module to be installed, but is not specificly a combat droid.
Uhhhh...sorta sounds like a combat droid tome (if one were to install a combat module).
What's the distinction being drawn there? (having a combat module vs. being specifically designedas a"combat droid")
Maybe if we all work on THAT question firstit would help us all on this particular discussion.
Giving a MDE a MDE-only droid that is specificly geared for combat does not follow suit with what many are asking for on all sides of the spectrum.
Hmmm...okay, I concede. I'll just take an X-Wing instead please.
We are in tremulous waters right now and need to really think about what we really want as a profession.
I was always under the impression that the Devs had pretty much decided that they newbetter what was good for us.
Asking that DE not be turned into the next CH profession yet at the same time asking for the ablity to call upon a MDE-only combat droid will send a mixed signal to the DEV team and could result in turning us into what we dread most.
A useless, unwanted profession that can fill a small ampitheatre with most of the Masters from all servers?
Nah...we already have that.
I'mactually not horribly afraid of us being turned into a new CH iteration.
The reason is that the Dev team has now "been there, done that". They've recognized it as a mistake and a design problem. I'mpretty sure that won't allow anything to happen that brings us to that point again.
Or....not.
I'm not saying that this is how things are right now, but I am saying that with this change towards wanting community feed back we need to think about what has been done in the past, with all professions, andwhatsome are asking for.
Okay...I'd agree with that.
How is asking for a better MDE-level perk (that has SOME impact on my ability to defend myself, or contribute constructively to solo/group combat or PvP) turning into something that will make us into the new CH class?
I mean............................it's ONE item!!!!
Maybe I should just give up and accept that every player in the galaxy will potentially have/use the SAME droids that I do.
Do we get NOTHING 'special' to call our own? Nothing to be proud of or enjoy?!?!
No........clearly not.
DEV 101 - A general ruleof thumb that past publishes have shown us tends to suggest that the DEVsfollow an all or nothing approach to fixing a profession.
Uhhh...I think you meant a "nothing or even less" approach. Remember, in some ways, we're actually even MORE broken than we were at launch (and beta, for that matter). We have nowhere to go BUT up.
If they change something about a profession theytend to change it all. Askingforan MDE-only combat droidand not turning us into a CH knock-off is like asking to have some of the best pie in the galaxy, but without the added calories.
This depends entirely on how well it's done, to be honest.
Think about some of my previous comments relating to 'uber DH' types and tell me that they'd be apt to spend their time slaving toward that supposedly uber MDE perk droid...only to find out that they were worse off when they got there.
Follow THAT line of logic and it's totally possible to have pie (I prefer blueberry, for those that are curious), eat it too and even through some at the nearest MSE droid we happen across.
Respectfully,
Holocron DEs aren't the same thing as combat-DEs... not even close. To me, that shows that you completely misunderstand the problem I see.
Holocron DEs show up, grind, AND THEN DELETE THE PROFESSION. They're not around long enough to have any affect on anything.
The DEs that I'm worried about, and I have seen similar problems in other games, are the ones who pick up the profession to get their new combat toy, but then keep the profession (they have to, remember, it's a DE-only combat droid). They eventually do a little experimenting to see what else they can do with these 63 skill points that they've wasted and discover that - lo and behold! - they can make droids out of all of these scrap resources they're carrying around! And since the scrap resources are already a sunk cost, let's just dump this stuff on the market to make a quick buck or two!
And frankly, it happens with Holocron DEs as well, it's just not as significant. It happened long before Holocron DEs... long ago (in a galaxy far, far away) I was essentially driven off of Rori by a couple of people who were dumping droids on the market in an attempt to recoup their grinding costs. Since they were macro-harvesting their resources, they didn't have a lot of costs to recoup, and so they destroyed the droid market in Narmle (such as it was at the time).
As formy analogies (cars, snowboards, etc) you are wrong on all accounts. There is no one at Ford who is even close to Michael Schumacher as a driver. The Colt Master Gunsmith is probably a lot better than me with a gun, but he can't hold a candle to an Olympic sharpshooter. The best freestyle skiers and snowboarders in the world do not MAKE the boards at K2 and Burton... they're product reps, at best. My point holds true - the people who are the bestatMAKING products are not the people who are the best at USING those same products. The skill sets are vastly different. They are different professions.
I have some experience designing and developing games - it's what I do for a living. The economy of a game is by far the most difficult part to balance, at least currently, because the industry has so little experience creating artificial economies. This is further complicated by the fact that most players don't care about the economy as long as they can get the gun they want so that they can go get the loot they want. Even if destroying the Droid economy had an adverse effect on every player in the game, someone would still do it simply to see what happened. (And then, presumably, the game would die because some idiot ruined it for everyone.)
As so many people are so fond of pointing out, this is a game. Games aren't real life - there are no real consequences. That is why actions must be constrained to a subset that is not detrimental to the game as a whole, or even to a portion of the game. SOE doesn't have a very good track record with combatpets, so I'm not willing to give them free reign yet, as it were.
Besides, we're still lacking that one crucial bit of reasoning... why should we have a DE-only combat droid? Why make this change? Even if you don't fully believe the scenario I spin, why take that chance? I really don't feel a need to tell anyone why we don't need them until someone can come up with a real reason why we do.
(Yes, I have combat abilities. Kollos is a Rifleman, though not a Master due to lack of skill points. I have done Pistoleer as well and have toyed with Commando. I just find PvP in SWG to be painfully bad.)
Sarcastic arguments really get us nowhere.
Droid Engineers have long been akin to Architects and Chefs and Artisans and Armorsmiths in that our products are usable by anyone. I always viewed droids as items that everyone had the same chance at using (barring user-error/ineptness/etc) but it came with certain advantages/disadvantages:
* Multi-functionality - Droids can be crafting stations, enable healing of wounds outside of the med center, repair other droids, perform combat, and (in this same line of thinking...) maybe allow entertainers to heal fatigue or vehicles to be repaired
* Physically were weaker than creatures - This would put droids at a disadvantage by having less HAM, doing less damage, did not have special attacks
If we just look at combat ability and the future combat droids that are coming out, I think it would bea mistake to pit these droids vs CH creatures. Creature Handlers specialize in high powered creatures to be attack and defense objects. At the same time, they have a certification system that does not allow everyone to just up and tame rancors and such. Droids should fill in therestofthehole in that combat related market. They should be usable by everyone (i.e. no cert system) but be weaker in combat. Take the probot, stick a new graphic on it, up the damage and HAM by abit, and call that the next generation combat droid. What does that give you? A droid that those that don't want to learn how to be a CH but want something tougher than a CL10 chihuahua can use. And what can be better than that? A droid that can fight hard and have a 110 medical rating....or item storage...or crafting station built in. CH's can't compete with a multi-functional pet. Whereas, we cannot compete with a badass rancor tearing picket a new hole.
You can go nuts on the multi-functionality too. How about a droid that does heat damage instead of blast damage or energy damage? How about a droid that is specifically resistant to acid? This kind of modularity will help close the gap as to how do combat droids compare to CH creatures, but CH creatures should be ahead in a pound for pound comparison.
Oh yeah, expect to hear something by Wednesday regarding the Droid Invasion.
StrayCat1212 wrote:
Sarcastic arguments really get us nowhere.
Droid Engineers have long been akin to Architects and Chefs and Artisans and Armorsmiths in that our products are usable by anyone. I always viewed droids as items that everyone had the same chance at using (barring user-error/ineptness/etc) but it came with certain advantages/disadvantages:
Another disadvantage I thought of:
* BY GOD, we have tons of different resources and dependencies on other crafting classes. I hate it but am starting to understand it.
I'd like to see some Uber Item Storage mods - ones where you can put like 100 items in or something - now that would be useful - and VERY profitable for us DEs.
I'd also would like to see more customization options (I know, in my dreams) aside from color. How about different options for arm types within the main arm types (yes confusing, but I think you know what I mean!). It would be great if we could REALLY customize a droid, to make it your own - and even truely brand it.
Anyway... I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore....
la la la la la
The idea that a MDE only droid will be so incredible a combatant will spend the 100 skill points (70 skill (MDE) & 29 (Artisan) ) is unlikely. No droid is going to be so spectacular that someone would go through all the effort to become MDE instead of taking on another elite combat profession. Also remember most combatants think crafting is lame and boring.
If we get a MDE combat only so be it, if we dont, fine. But to think it will destroy the droid economy is alarmist at the minimum.
Lonkley wrote:
The idea that a MDE only droid will be so incredible a combatant will spend the 100 skill points (70 skill (MDE) & 29 (Artisan) ) is unlikely. No droid is going to be so spectacular that someone would go through all the effort to become MDE instead of taking on another elite combat profession. Also remember most combatants think crafting is lame and boring.
If we get a MDE combat only so be it, if we dont, fine. But to think it will destroy the droid economy is alarmist at the minimum.
Thanks for posting this. At least I feel understood by some.
This is the exact reality of the argument that combat-minded folk would want to waste their time on this.
/bow
Respectfully,
Good lord!
Look, I dont care either way, but dont you think that you pure crafters are being slightly silly? If the master bot is the best combat droid and that goes against your principles, DON'T MAKE ONE! It's not like it is the only combat droid they are going to make! If the master bot is some bonus crafter GREAT, BUT YOU STILL CANT SELL IT SO WHO CARES IF THE MASTER BOT IS A COMBAT DROID!
GOD FORBID WE HAVE A LITTLE VERSATILITY AND FUN IN THIS PROFESSION, ESPECIALLY IF IT GOES AGAINST THE BIBLE CODE OF STARWARS MOVIES OR BOOKS!
You sound like a bunch of Trekkies or something lol!
Keep Going TK
At least one of us is behind you...actually most 
Kollos..you sadden me, but then you always did with your completely selfish argument.
Let us do what we want to do, it really is no skin off your nose. Talk about the rich getting richer, pah Kollos, try starting now on a new server without your millions. I'd give a whole lot for a perk and a decent defense droid, and as far as I can see thats all TK is asking for.
Spoilsport Kollos, with all your high level arguments and experience of game design. Balls is the British expression I'm afraid, your just paranoid and selfish about the market..and for no logical reason. DE is a complete rarity as it is, I wish there were more of us.
And no, I dont expect you to see this or understand, your blinkers won't let you.
I won#t comment further, happily I was spared the ordeal of US debate classes, common sense in this matter is far better.
Have a nice day both, TK you are right, it's quite, quite obvious
Shian
hey.. weaponsmiths can use their weapons.. although they cant use them very effeciently.. but that concept doesnt apply to droid engineers... (I for one would love to see a person in real life who builds a robot in real life and cant 'use' the freaking thing-- if I see that person... believe me- I will look him square in the eyes and say to him one simple word that describes him perfectly.... 'stupid')