Droid Engineer Archive

JustG,

I hope you knew you were gonna get a 'break-down' from me.

Here it comes...enjoy.


Note: Greg, thanks for posting in that fun, hard-to-quote format. "Open discussion" indeed. Make your posts more easily quotable if you want to convince us that your actions can speak louder than your words.

/bow

Questionably,

Howdy. This is from another post I made, but it refers specifically to you guys so I am going to repost it here. I am sure there will be alot more conversation about it later. :-)

Yes...heaven forbid you take a few moments to address an issue head on when copying/pasting the 'massaged', nicey-nice marketing is a better solution.

Kind of like the Droid Invasion we almost got, huh?

Glad you brought up the Droid post. Let's use that as an example of how things change.

Uhhh...things haven't fundamentally changed for DEs since the start of Beta 3, G.

You do realize that, right?

Please don't post to the forum DEs about change. We're very familiar with it vis a vis the lack of it that we've seen (witnessed by the considerable and venerable Gorantoth's issues list).

I said, in my newsletter, that the January publish would be focussed on Droids.

Then you apparently spoke of out turn (per your comment below). Thanks for getting back with us to revise and append that official statement. (note: there's sarcasm there...you never DID retract this announcement or let us know about what Lucas apparently MADE you do.)

Do you always make official announcement on when things will happen even when you must have information to the contrary (/pointingdown)?

After that, Lucas and SOE agreed that Publish 6 would be focussed on the Imperial Crackdown, for two reasons:

It's good to hear that the Devs considered Droid work to be the "#1 top priority". Remember that little gem?

Exactly how hard did you folks at SOE attempt to convince Lucas that the droid 'thing' was lacking FAR behind the GCW in terms of focus and content?

Weren't they at all concerned that a storyline that was so heavily filled with droids didn't seem to have much in the way of droids in the game?

1) Increase the feeling of Imperial oppresion to make the game more Star Wars feeling

Yes...I can see how this would be more important that getting more/better droids into a story that's only about the adventures of two droids.

2) Give us the time necessary to treat the droids with the amount of energy they deserve.

Hmmm? Oh. This is the same thing I've personally read on this site since I started beta 3, to be honest.

At what point precisely do you see the proper amount of energy being paid to droids? 2005?

Seriously, G. I don't think you understand exactly how much credibility that every member of the SOE Dev team and CR team has lost in the eyes of DEs and droid users game-wide.

How do I know? I've probably made and sold more droids than you EVER will over the life of this game....that's how I know.

I still don't think you guys get it.

In Publish 6 (the publish I referred to), the following things are happening:

l Added general module slot to the advanced Binary Load lifter droid, and both basic and advanced protocol droids.

Okay...this is nice. Not huge but it makes these items useful, which is something. /sigh

l Droid storage compartments are now using droid experimentation rather than artisan.

Which will mean exactly ZERO to most every DE or Artisan that I've ever met.

l Droid customization tool now gives droid crafting xp instead of general xp

/yawn

l Droid socket modules can no longer be plugged into one another.

Finally. You guys fixed an exploit 7 months after release. That has to be some kind of new record, I promise. The fact that this exploit (and it IS an exploit, all, despite what's said) shows the exact amount of attention NOT being paid to DEs.

You can't even take the time to fix an exploit, which you yourselves state takes the highest of priorities. Was it game or profession breaking? ...that depends on who you talk to, doesn't it?!?

l Multi-crafting station module droid capability fixed for some cases where one type would over-ride another type.

Read: We fixed something that we tried to fix earlier and think we actually have it fixed now.

Can we get Droid Customization tools and chassis coloring added to the list of features that you actually finish so that they work correctly (someday)?

l Combat-related stats removed from examine windows for non-combat-capable droids

Thank GOD. You have NO idea how much problems this has been causing me and my clients.

l Item Storage Module 2's now really are that, instead of becoming data storage module 2's during the crafting process.

Read: We fixed something that we tried to fix earlier and think we actually have it fixed now (even though it basically amounts to a typo). /sigh

l Added transition from combat to normal idle for Probe Droid.

Hehehe...you're getting 'TH's Disease'. G. These are "Probot" droids, not "Probe" droids.

You do understand that those are two different things, right? If you want to post to DEs, it often helps to actually know what you're talking about.....just a suggestion.

So while Droids are not the MAIN focus, we are addressing some of the DE issues. The next two publishes, after crackdown, we ARE focussing specifically on Droids. We plan on implementing combat droids (< level 10) in P7, and Utility Droids in P8.

Good. Since you've made this announcement, you can likely tell us more details on what will be on the table for at least P7.

I'd hate to have another forum debacle where you all think you're build the exact thing that everyone dislikes.

I'll look for you to start the open discussion by putting out to us what you DO see as happening down the line. Oh...I forgot...we're still not communicating right yet.

Herein lies the main problem with telling the players anything. Things Change. Things change based on the current state of the game, and the desires of our publisher.

Two items here:

1) The 'state' of droids and DEs in the game hasn't changed (even a very small amount) since well before release. So, this is not an issue of what's "current" or not. DEs have always been busted.

2) You say the "desires of our publisher". Are you saying that the Imperial Crackdown was more important than droids?

If so, don't get on the forums and make official statements what is or is not a priority and if/when ANYTHING will happen. That is your mistake, if you're here taking credit.

And the second that they change, you drag up old posts and start screaming LIARS!!!

No...we bring this up because you all have not apparently learned your valuable lessons on communication yet, Greg.

Sometimes we call you liars because the best information that we have shows that you appearred to lie to the userbase. In PR-land, the appearance of a lie is just as powerfully negative as whether or not one took place.

Do we lie to you? No. Do we tell you information that changes? Absolutely.

You forgot: "Do we end up believing that we're doing the right thing with our development plans and initiatives while never bothering to find out if it's what the customer wants (and will pay for)? Sure.

I'm sorry, man. You OWN that. Seriously.

Remember the first "Droid Plan" you all put forth? It was VERY negatively received. You all didn't hang about to try to find out why. You just took some strange amount of information off and starting building a new plan. Then, when TH made his "casual comment" on the announced plans to build a DH profession, we had to come back AGAIN and say....."No, that's NOT what we've been saying. Why don't you listen?"

Have you ever heard SO many players claim that you all don't listen as the amount of DEs that scream that from the rooftops?

I hope that says something to you, Greg. Otherwise, someone there isn't really doing their job very well.

But things are going to change. If you want more information, you have to be prepared for that information to change. That is the very nature of MMOG's.

That's the very nature of how MMOG's have been, yes. Do you find it all curious that most every player seems to HATE that this is how MMOG's 'are'?

If you do...might I suggest that you all consider how to change that fundamental situation? If you did, I'm pretty sure you'd start to see the numbers of SWG go up...instead of down.

You all must be fairly worried by WoW. You probably should be. From what I can tell, they have been watching your decisions and communication with players VERY closely. Start sweating, Greg.

We do want information. It's just that you all haven't really given us all that much, to be honest.

I know that YOU don't think that's true. Maybe you should more carefully consider what your vocal (and not-so-vocal) customers have to say on that issue on these boards.

I want to keep you very informed about what is happening in our studio, for your game, because it really is your game. We are trying to have open discussions with you.

Hmmmm....really? If you've been trying to have open discussions, and it IS our game, then why is Gorantoth's list of droid bugs and issues still fundamentally the same size as it has been since the start of beta 3?

This is not anecdotal, Greg. I've been here for the WHOLE thing...and I've seen much of it transpire right on these very threads. I know full well that your Team's actions have fallen FAR short of the 'nicey-nice community speak' that's hoisted on us lowly customers.

I hope you guys wake up soon.

We are trying to get the In Concept> In Dev > In Test > In Live system working. Please understand that this business is extremely unpredictable at times.

Hmmm....well, I guess that's why we pay you, huh?

To be honest, this last little comment from you sounded like a high school kid trying to explain to his/her teacher why they didn't have their homework done on time. "The assignment was too hard and unpredictable, sir."

That may cut it where you're from...but from where I stand...you're making excuses for failures you haven't even made (yet).

Sorry. I call it like I see it. Those that know and trust in my 'break-downs' expect no less than the truth.

thx,

- g

Elvis sang it best:

A lot less talk and a little more action....

Message Edited by Razor99 on 02-04-2004 09:14 PM

It's only unpredictable because you guys make it that way. Most other business's similar to your that provide massive service to the general population are now regulated in one way or another because their customers got fed up enough to start making noise somewhere. Look at the phone, cable tv and power companies. Sure - the service they provide is vastly more important, but as more and more people come on line and spend money being entertained, you're going to find more and more of them will insist on professional service and accurate information.

Might as well get in the habit now. Kick the producers and tell them to get in the same boat you guys are in - or vice versa.

LOL

somehow i saw this comming...no combat droids >level 10 for us. Someone must have hit the brake and said oh well those DEs suck anyway. Well now i can cancel my account at least without waiting for my DE to be playable and beeing able to do some quests with him.

Thanks SOE.

Hope this is a reality check for you G.

I think SOE is the first ever to reactivate terminated accounts so get people to actually play your game.

Wake up or this will be the shortest lived game in history.

Yes, i wasnt as smart as the rest and paid you for a full year so i have paid for the right to tell you YOU ARENT CUTTING IT.

OW and G, I took you at your word long ago and heard you say YOU were working on us and give you time we wouldnt be disappointed.

Well we did, and if you think we arent your very wrong.

This isnt just DE by the way READ the invasion thread, NOONE liked your plan.

Imagine that the people that make and sell droids in game may have a feel for what people want in a droid?

WOW what a concept.

Sorry hun, but im not buying your load of crap anymore, produce, stay off the boards and develop what we have asked for since beta.

Frankly i dont care if i ever see your name here again, because when you write somthing it means nothing.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT. We dont want you to come here with empty promises, we want you to fix DE. SO get to work.

OW and sign tk post cause it sums it up.

Thanks again for absolutely nothing

Glad you brought up the Droid post. Let's use that as an example of how things change. I said, in my newsletter, that the January publish would be focussed on Droids.

The emphatic manner in which the promise that the January publish would be focussed on droids was cause for much hope for Droid Engineers. Many have been holding on in hopes of fixes since launch, surviving the Great Probot Nerf (and Holocron's promise that it would be a very short term nerf), the bugs, the patch that made it impossible to craft droids. So, hearing this in November made many stay on till now. This is important to note, because it was the raised expectations that led to the outcry.

After that, Lucas and SOE agreed that Publish 6 would be focussed on the Imperial Crackdown, for two reasons:

And this is where you went wrong. Not that things changed - but that we were led around on a merry dance without any indication that things had changed. There was never an official statement that the Droid Invasion had been slipped. Had you just come out sooner and had Thunderheart tell us that the schedule for droids had slipped, a lot of the anger on the boards could have been avoided.

You have to realize that no major promise about droids has been kept to date. I don't think that SOE actually hates droids and droid engineers - but I think that for whatever reason, the code for droids is problematic for you, and you don't have adequate resources to "do things right". Nevertheless, the primary images from star wars are droids, Darth Vader, X-wings, droids... you get the point.

In any case, however, when the focus changed you should have told us that the MAIN focus of the January publish would NOT be droids.

1) Increase the feeling of Imperial oppresion to make the game more Star Wars feeling

There are many of us who feel that ubiquitous droids would go a long ways towards the same Star Wars feeling. Don't get me wrong - I think that the Imperial Crackdown is great, and is needed for the game. But so are droids.

Realize, many Droid Engineers play DE in part because it is so Star Warsie. Most of us aren't looking to be "uber", or get rich like a Weapon Smith - we just think that droids are cool.

2) Give us the time necessary to treat the droids with the amount of energy they deserve.

I won't go into how this should have been addressed long ago - this is water under the bridge. However, for the good of the game, and not just Droid Engineers, you do need to assign the necessary resources to make droids as useful as they are in the movies. And I am not just talking about combat droids, either.

In Publish 6 (the publish I referred to), the following things are happening:

Added general module slot to the advanced Binary Load lifter droid, and both basic and advanced protocol droids.

You do realize that the BLL is the highest droid a DE can make - it is the reward for making master. It will now have a single module slot - which makes it almost as useful as an MSE droid.

The BLL should have inherrent item storage - it is a walking forklift, for heaven's sake!

Droid storage compartments are now using droid experimentation rather than artisan.

The Droid Storage Compartments aer used for one thing and one thing only - Architect made crafting stations. So, while I like to see all bugs squished, this is pretty trivial. It is also rather ironic - as experimentation does almost nothing in a droid, this is the one place where experimentation does matter to the assembly of the architect crafting staton. Which means that now archs will only buy these things off master DE's.

Droid customization tool now gives droid crafting xp instead of general xp

This is also a rather trivial fix. Why? Because the way the experience system is set up for droids, it is not worth making droids to get experience. Yes, you hard that right. You can get more experience in abuot 1 minute grinding out 4 advanced droid frames than you would get in 20 minutes assembling an entire advanced R2 unit.

Droid socket modules can no longer be plugged into one another.

This exploit fix should have been done long ago. I don't know if you are aware why whis was such a bad thing - so I'll tell you. By stacking the cluster modules, people were able to make a mouse droid (MSE) with every single possible droid module in it. By stacking the modules, the builder was able to make the most capable combination of droid abilities - without having to use ANY rare materials or factory made parts, or the large amounts of materials needed for the higher level chasis. And it could be done at a lower level than should have been able to craft that level of droid. Hence, the name Super Mouse came into being. This was made even worse by the "Hologrinders" who didn't care about the droid market, but just wanted to recop some of their expenses in grinding to master DE.

Multi-crafting station module droid capability fixed for some cases where one type would over-ride another type.

Now, this is a nice fix. I haven't seen that bug since the last publish, but multi-crafting station droids are a big hit.

Combat-related stats removed from examine windows for non-combat-capable droids

This is also rather trivial - there was never much confusion about whether an R5 unit could fight.

Of course, if you are adding combat modles that can be plugged into the existing chasis, I suppose that makes some sense.

But this leads us to a completely different can of worms - blasters in R2's??? CDEF pistols duct taped to their heads? Thisjust isn't very star warsie, at least to me.

Item Storage Module 2's now really are that, instead of becoming data storage module 2's during the crafting process.

While another nice bug fix, still rather trivial. Given that the maximum a droid can hold ever is 10 items, everyone just uses a pair of level 4 modules or a single level 6. A level 2 module allows, I beleive 3 items to be stored by the droid... not too exciting.

Added transition from combat to normal idle for Probe Droid.

Was this the change that broke the probot art? And yes, I know that it is an Imperial Probe Droid. However, everyone calls it the PROBOT. A Probe droid is the droid that a Bounty Hunter uses, along with his Seeker droids.

So while Droids are not the MAIN focus, we are addressing some of the DE issues.

Any attention from the devs is appreciated. However, in truth, the only fix that is noteworthy is fixing the cluster exploit.

In the next two publishes, after crackdown, we ARE focussing specifically on Droids.

Unless things change....

We plan on implementing combat droids (< level 10) in P7,

As noted above, you need to think very carefully about the Star Wars theme, and adding blasters to R2's.

What would be truely awsome would be a few new < level 10 battle droid CHASIS to take the new combat modules - not just duct taping a CDEF to R2's dome.

and Utility Droids in P8.

And we need some serious clarification here. Thunderheart said that no Utility Droid will be able to boost abilities. So, what will be usefull about it? BE's can make skill tapes to put in tailor made clothing and AS made armor, slicers can slice and make spice, chefs can make skill enhancing food, artisans can make powerups, weapon smiths can make kyratt enhanced guns... the list goes on. So, why can't DE's have the same general purpose abilities?

Herein lies the main problem with telling the players anything. Things Change. Things change based on the current state of the game, and the desires of our publisher. And the second that they change, you drag up old posts and start screaming LIARS!!!

No, you are missing the point. The problem is that you don't tell us enough.

Had you told us AS SOON as you knew that the priorities had changed, and the reason, we would have dealt with it and the name calling and such wouldn't have happened.

You knew that things had changed - but you did not tell us, and allowed us to beleive until recently that Droids were still the main goal. You never came out and said explicitly that things had changed until now. Hence, it was a lie by omission, if not by comission.

Furthermore, Thunderheart had the audacity to BLAME THE DE's for the slip, saying that the fact that many of have different visions for the profession was the reason for the slip.

Do we lie to you? No. Do we tell you information that changes? Absolutely.

Once again, there are lies of ommission and comission. And as stated above, Thunderheart did blame the DE's for the failure of the January droid invasion.

But things are going to change. If you want more information, you have to be prepared for that information to change. That is the very nature of MMOG's.

We aren't all just little kids here - many of us are veterains of other MMORPG's (I note you no longer use that term...) Some of us even used to write MUD code. So, don't treat us like children. Tell us when things change.

I want to keep you very informed about what is happening in our studio, for your game, because it really is your game. We are trying to have open discussions with you. We are trying to get the In Concept> In Dev > In Test > In Live system working. Please understand that this business is extremely unpredictable at times.

I think your intention is a good one. But the information needs to flow more freely from your end to avoid this sort of scenario.

I appreciate your posting here, and don't mean to rant or flame. But the issues that I addressed are ones that I think you are not completly cognisant of.

Once again, thanks for the post. Now, get to work

---

JustG wrote:

Glad you brought up the Droid post. Let's use that as an example of how things change.

I said, in my newsletter, thatthe January publish would be focussed on Droids.

---

January publish? Today: February 5th, 2004. You guys need to do yourselves a favor and just stick to numbering the publishes like you have been doing recently. "Publish 6" is better than "January" publish, because you guys stink at estimating timeframes that you can push code live...as does much of the software development world. Does this come from people underestimating the challenges before them, or are you guys just shorthanded and overworked? SOE seems to be taking a financial hit lately, I doubt you guys have a snowball's chance of getting to hire more devs to speed up this slowcycle.

I remember when you guys used to call it the "monthly" publish. LOL. Well, it seems that publishes would be better called "Quarterly" publishes now, since they only get to us after about 2-3 months of dev and testing time. /sigh.

Something has got to improve as far as making this game better and more challenging...quicklike. I'm sure you guys realize that the MMORPG market is going to be more competitive than ever this year with games like World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Matrix Online,Ultma X, Middle Earth Online and SOE's own EQ2 coming out. I forsee your subscription numbers dropping because advancement is too easy, there is not enough "end game" content, and generally nothing to occupy the experienced players that have been here since day one.

And let's not downplay those people, please. The day one, experienced player is the guy who will pay your subscription fee for years if you cater to him as best you can, instead of trying to make more "new" MMO players happy, the ones that will play briefly then leave when their first subscription runs out. EQ did this well, and they kept their core playerbase happy..and they enjoy a long life. Can SWG do the same? I'm a fan, so I hope so. But right now the outlook is bleak.