Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Can someone justify DE only droids?
My day job is writing 3D graphics applications for visualisation. Most of my major clients are military. I've also spent 8 years in the Army myself, so I can absoultely, postively guarantee you that it is the end users that know far, far more about my software than I do. Some projects I've worked on and/or being lead for involved command and control systems of tens of millions of lines of code and right now, I write visualisation products and toolkits. Despite me being a fulltime 3D graphics developer, at the top of my field, I'm still continuously amazed at the ways the fulltime users can bend my code to do things I never even dreamed of. Similarly from my days in the military, the grunts and combat engineers (and I have deliberately picked on this = see below) could do far more with their tools than they were originally designed. You'd be surpised at the inginuity (sp?) of your average soldier - both to be capable of breaking something in ways you never thought possible, and also doing stuff that was never in designed for, but succeeds at amazingly well.
Now, onto combat engineers. In the military world, combat engineers don't create new tools like the droid engineer. What they do is build structures and placements. Their main tools are the tractor, truck and sandbag. Occasionallly they'll use other things, but what they mainly do is build emplacements, dugouts, berms, roads and so forth. They don't build the tractor (repair it, maybe, but that's a different thing to building one from scratch). Other engineering professions within the military are electrical and mechanical. These guys repair stuff and build temporary structures like a mobile phone network in a remote place. However, they are fabricating directly from pre-built parts. They are taking the work of a "real" electrical engineer, applying some solder, a few rolls of duct tape and coming up with a complete phone network - which they'll probably never use (it's for the officers to use to communicate with).
In all of these examples of "military engineers" note that the people doing the work have military training already. Before they can even pick up a spanner or soldering iron or sit in a seat of a tractor, they must have been through at least recruit school. They already know a lot about combat. They know how to fire a rifle. Of course they are going to be effective in using their training in "combat" situations. But, when a group of emeny are charging at them throwing grenades, firing rifles etc, do you think that military electrical engineer is going to run out there with a roll of ducttape in hand to try to stop them? No, of course not, they'll reach for their rifle or sidearm and use that instead. Now, what happens when you take your fresh-out-of-uni electrical engineer and put them in the same situation? OF course they'll **edit** their pants and run away as fast as possible.
How is this situation any different to what we have now in SWG? If all you've done is climbed the artisan tree(s) of MA and DE, you're no different to the college kid. Of course you don't know how to fight, and yes, if some bully ragtag kook decides to have a go at you, expect to have your arse handed to you on a plate. Now, what if the military trained engineer gets stuck in the same situation (ie a DE that has also picked up novice marksman). Of course he should be more effective in exactly the same situation - regardless of whether there is a droid or not there. Without the proper combat training, a DE with a combat droid should be effectively useless - nor should a DE without combat training be able to modify a droid to be "better" than any combat droid that anyone else can get. Without experience in the field, how would someone know how to modify it to be more effective in combat? They can tweak it to give more power or more defense, but how would the person with no combat ability have any idea which is the better thing to put?
Tarrell, I'm not sure I see where you are going here. I see the first point you mentioned and understand that 100%. But then you go off and say that DE's were supposed to make effective combat droids, which I agree with. Then you say that in order to make effective combat droids, only DE and use them. Thats where I lose you. Can you explain that jump for me? I mean, essentially what you are saying if I have you right,is that in order for DE to restore to its envisioned functionality, they need to make personal combat droids? I'm not getting how that fits into place.
As yes,I know that balance and fixing are two entirely different things. I'm just not sure what you call it at this point. Maybe "DE's need some love?" I dont know, like I said, call it what you want.
JonasBlackmore wrote:
Justification #2 (was in my paragraph previously): Droids are complex pieces of machinery, as such, an expert in the field would be able to use "more powerful" versions and get the greatest performance out of them. An example would be, again, computers. As a computer programmer/engineer, I am able to do things on/with a computer that many others are incapable of doing. Now, you'll say "Yes, but the others can all use the computer, so that doesn't justify getting a DE only droid." To this I would respond, "Think of Operating Systems, a computer illiterate person would not be able to use a non-gui version of Linux, where-as I could. Thus, even though it is part of the computer, it is limited to who can use it"
Justification #3: We create them, we program them, we control what they can/cannot do. As such, why wouldn't we be able to make one that requires a certain skill level to be able to use, or ones that only we, as the creator, could use? Yes, BE also make "pets", but it's different in that you don't program them or teach them what to do (i.e. in the organic realm, just because a farmer can grow vegetables doesn't mean he knows how to cook them properly).
Jonas,
Good points, but not entirely true. For the sake of argument:
#2: People who use computers and operating systems don't necessarily write them. Also, people who definitely didn't write the operating system find ways to exploit the OS in ways that the original engineer never realized. Just because you know how it was made doesn't mean you can use it better than others. In fact, in real life I think you can find many more examples that the best users are not the manufacturers. Ie: you don't have to be an engineer to operate complex technology.
#3: I would argue that if you *really* understood DNA you'd know just as much as someone writing software did about the system. However, usually it's DNA manipulation and not DNA generation, so I'd agree with this point. I don't think it necessarily implies better combat certification though, because of my response to point 2.
I think the best justification is:
We don't have good combat droids. All of our droids are sellable. All sellable creatures that would be used for combat are going to be restricted to CL10. The implication is therefore that all combat droids will be limited in a similar way, and since all of our droids are sellable and useable by anyone, therefore we will not have ANY good droids. A balancing system for this has been suggested, but it is probably far off on the horizon.Atemporary solution is togive usone top-end combat droid that only we can use to at least appease those screaming foreffective combat droids which we definitely do not have right now.
So the issue is more because if the same restrictions as pets apply to us, we will have 0 good combat droids.
Basically, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel the only way DE's are going to be able to make (and have them used) combat droids are to keep them limited in use. I think everyone will agree with that.
So with that in mind I alsobelieve the following 2 things:
1) Droid certifications will probably (imo) never happen for combat droids unless they keep it at a master <some class> which will probably have the non-masters up in arms. After all why should someone who spent 250 skill points but not mastering any skill have less of a "right" to use one. To give certs based on skill points used would still, in then end, mean that almost everyone will be able to use them which also is not going to happen. (The vast majority of people I know are maxed or very close to maxed on skill points).
2) Perhaps a Droid Handler class would take care of that but it's also not going to happen any time soon if ever.
So the question is what way can a DE make an effective Combat droid and have it used?
I believe the currentsolutionis to make it DE only. This would at least fix the situation where the DE would then have the ability to make a decent combat droid again. Unfortunately it also means they will not be able to sell it to non-DE's.
LancerDL wrote:
We don't have good combat droids. All of our droids are sellable. All sellable creatures that would be used for combat are going to be restricted to CL10. The implication is therefore that all combat droids will be limited in a similar way, and since all of our droids are sellable and useable by anyone, therefore we will not have ANY good droids. A balancing system for this has been suggested, but it is probably far off on the horizon.Atemporary solution is togive usone top-end combat droid that only we can use to at least appease those screaming foreffective combat droids which we definitely do not have right now.
So the issue is more because if the same restrictions as pets apply to us, we will have 0 good combat droids.
Actually, Thunderheart posted in the CH forum to the effect that the Probot is going to get a significant upgrade. It appears that the devs are trying to shift emphasis away from pets and toward droids as combat sidekicks for the average player. Thunderheart only said thatcreatures are going to be limited to CL 10.
As has been posted many times, the current label of CL 16 on the Probot is a holdover from before it was nerfed. The actual current challenge level of the Probot is somewhere in the 8-10 range (if it's even that high), so what I'm hearing from what Thunderheart has postedis that the Probot is going to be better than CL 10 when all is said and done.
Whether or not you believe the current Probot is combat capable probably depends more on what you fight than anything else. I use Probots extensively in combat and find them to be excellent shields. My Probots are more than capable of taking on an entire camp of Maulers long enough for me to pick them all off, and realistically that's all I need it to do.
Give the Probot CL 12 damage (120-ish) and CL 12 HAM (1500-ish) and it would be an excellent combat sidekick. From my point of view, given my own experience fighting alongside them, that's more than we need and might actually be too good. But then again, I'm not trying to solo Rancors. I leave that to the combat professions.
Tarell wrote:
So the question is what way can a DE make an effective Combat droid and have it used?
Hidden in that question is the crux of the problem: what do you mean by "effective?"
Personally, I find the Probot to be quite effective in its current state. It's a very sturdy little combat sidekick that is more than capable of drawing attention while I use my combat profession skills (in my case, Novice Rifleman) to kill those few enemies that I am forced to engage.
Would I like a slightly more powerful combat droid than the current Probot? Sure, as long as I can sell it to other people as well. Why do Droid Engineers somehow need more protection than Bio-Engineers and Armorsmiths? Answer: we don't.
So from my point of view, if a combat droid is so powerful that the devs cannot allow a Master Bounty Hunter or Master Commando to have one, then it is too powerful to be put into the game as a player-usable droid. Restricting the use of a too-powerful combat droid to Droid Engineers - who are non-combatants - smacks of a kludge. Thankfully in this case, it's a kludge we don't need because the droid in question hasn't been added and the entire situation can be avoided by just not adding the too-powerful combat droid in the first place.
I'm not quite getting the "oh no, we'll turn into the Droid Handler profession" everyone is getting here... Why does a DE only combat droid (or any type of droid) have to destroy game balance, turn us into a combat profession, or piss off the other artisan professions?
Example 1:
Currently, the only real combat droid we have is the Probot... Assume they changed the probot from 50-56 damage for non-DE's to 60-65 for Master DE's (Or 820HAM for non-DE's to 850HAM for Master DE's)... How is that destroying game balance, making us a combat profession, or pissing off any other profession? That's a pretty small jump in damage (or HAM)... We're using the same combat droid everyone else is, with a teeny tiny increase... Depending on how the Devs handle the "DE only droid" issue, it couldwind up affecting balance very little, if at all.
Example 2:
I'm fairly indifferent on the issue (it'd be nice, but not necessary.)... If they do impliment a DE only combat droid, I'd like to see them give us a unique chassis/frame, with the same HAM/Damage as our most powerful droid (giving us NO balance issues, just a cool looking droid for being Master DE.) Assuming they add NO more combat droids, why not allow an MDE to control an IG-88 with 820 HAM, 50-56 damage (same as a probot.)
Bottom line, WE (being the players) are making it a balance issue, and it's not (until the devs f**k it up.) Giving us something unique and pretty (but no more/less effective) isn't a balance issue, and it's something they could give to any and every profession if they so chose. Give only Master BEa hot-pink dewback (or any other animal)... Give only Master Architectsa house with a unique floorplan... Where's the problem?
Au-Ru Blasterkin - Master Droid Engineer of Intrepid
Very few (if any)of the proponents of the DE-only combat droid are talking in terms of a Probot that does 65 damage instead of 50.
Some of them are talking CL 40 droids. Some of them are talking CL 30 droids. Some of them are talking CL 25 droids. Some of them are talking of making us able to use a pair of CL 20 droids. Some of them are talking a pair of CL 15 droids.
Any and all of those options are too powerful.
If we had a generally available combat droid at CL 15 and one usable only by Master Droid Engineers at CL 16, that might not be a problem (but it also might be a problem, because it sets a precedent that is extremely difficult to reverse).
And more to the point, really, is that no one has answered the opposite question: why do we need a superior DE-only combat droid? We're not a combat class, so what's with all this desire for a unique combat droid? Why can't EVERYONE use that droid?
I play this game for immersion. My character is a master droid engineer. The extreme time, cost, and resources required to master not only this profession, but also master artisan, has left my character (heck, the player as well) more than just a little twitchy. I play a mad scientist.. It makes massive tons of sense that my character would build HELLISH droids for his own personal amusement.. I could sell these droids, just like I could sell a newbie rifleman without med skills a surgical droid with 110% medic module. The key is, it's useless to anyone else. Not by design, but because it's not for them.. I built it for me.
That's the key here, kiddies.. I play a character.. in a game..who builds droids. I don't see who's business it is if I sell them, or light them on fire under the full moon(s) for a good hearty laugh.
I roleplay.. it makes sense to me that I'd build prototype droids that other people wouldn't be able to use.
Justification? Probably not to a cynic.. but then again, I'm not here to balance the game out of sheer piety.. I'm here to play.. a character.. in a game.. who build droids. See a pattern emerging? I'm a customer who thinks I should be able to build myself a "special" droid. Combat? sure.. a harvester droid? why not.. A personal droid who could teach me how to mambo? Heck yeah!! Doesn't have to necessarily be a combat droid.. just so long that it's my personal Igor (pronouced I-Gore). I don't really care.. the thing I DO care about is my game experience for which I'm paying. If you're happy justifying your BE vs DEexperience for the same cash it costs me to play.. fine.. But for my hard-earned dough, I want my own droid... you spend your money supporting any profession you want. Meanwhile, I'm heading back to the lab.
Cheers,
What do I define as effective. Something beyond what the current probot is. Possiblycloser to the old probot.
Why do DEs need a new combat droid that would end up being DE only? We don't need one. But then again they don't need to have crafting stations that's what architects are for. We don't need medical modules that's what hospitals and campsare for.
They want to make the changes to make improve the DE profession.Some you'll agree with some you'll disagree with.
Why does a DEneed to be a pure crafting class?
In my opinion it does not.I'd like to be a Droid Engineer not droid manufacturer thatalwayshas somethingto sell to the public.
first off I am a full suporter of a DE only Combat Droid, and secondly why is a BE wondering off into our forum, go home /shoo.
Anyway... We need a special droid if not a DE only combat droid, maybe a Combat Droid for all specific Combat classes, ex Commando only Droid, Pistoleer onlyDroid, Rifleman onlyDroid etc. I feel that DE as a profession is too vague and non-selective. We don't have much to offer other profession besides the crude modules we already have. A DE Only droid would be our reward for finally becoming a successful profession, but it shouldn't be our top priority, I think that droids for other professions would be help at the upmost importance at the moment. We aren't looking for a market targeted at ourselve's that's pointless, we need to help out other professions, we should have CL 15-25 Droids for the other professions not as primary fighters but maybe used in conjuction with skills. There are endless possibilities for our profession so it is hard to tell where we are heading, what I hope is that we get an increase in Droids and maybe a little bonus for us in the combat department 
.
--Lunkol's 2 Cents
Kollos wrote:
Very few (if any)of the proponents of the DE-only combat droid are talking in terms of a Probot that does 65 damage instead of 50.
Some of them are talking CL 40 droids. Some of them are talking CL 30 droids. Some of them are talking CL 25 droids. Some of them are talking of making us able to use a pair of CL 20 droids. Some of them are talking a pair of CL 15 droids.
Any and all of those options are too powerful.
If we had a generally available combat droid at CL 15 and one usable only by Master Droid Engineers at CL 16, that might not be a problem (but it also might be a problem, because it sets a precedent that is extremely difficult to reverse).
And more to the point, really, is that no one has answered the opposite question: why do we need a superior DE-only combat droid? We're not a combat class, so what's with all this desire for a unique combat droid? Why can't EVERYONE use that droid?
I agree, Most of them weren't talking about a DE-Only droid that's CL 16... Most of them were talking about us having CL 40, CL 30, or CL 20 droids to sell and a DE only droid that's either a hair better than, or different looking than the best droid we can make. (A CL 40 droid everyone can use, and a CL 40 droid with 10-15 more attack that's DE only). I used the probot as an example because the probot currently is our best combat droid.
We don't need a DE only combat droid... We don't need anything more than bug fixes... It's just something that would be nice... The Devs mentioned earlier possibly giving players "badges" for mastering a profession... That's all I would like to have... A unique droid (combat, or otherwise) that's unique to Master Droid Engineer.
Where's this "we're not a combat class" crap coming from? I agree, we're not a combat class... That doesn't mean we can't use our droids, does it? How does a CL 40 "DE only" combat droid make us a combat class any more than a CL 40 "Anyone-can-use" combat droid?
Au-Ru Blasterkin - Master Droid Engineer of Intrepid