Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Project: Droid Engineer Modular Upgrade System Synopsis
JYCowboy
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:59 am
#40
I am realistic to see how valuable time is for Developers. Many professions have been patient for good changes for what they feel of far to long. I am a Smuggler BTW. Your problems are real to you now. Part of it is that your customers are not involved with you. Harvestors run out and gather Loot and Resources and gain a relationship with Weaponsmiths and Armorsmiths to gain what they need. A customer comes to you and buys a Droid with some extra items (i.e. Batteries, Custom Kits etc.) and then they are gone. They dont need you as their little Plastic Pal is set and he only needs batteries once in a while from a Master Artisan. This is the essence of the Decay Issue. Make the Plastic Pal parishable so the customer comes back to buy a new one, a whole new droid. This situation does not allow for the Player to create a bond with thier Plastic Pal and want to seek out your care to fix him. If the Pal is to fragile he just wont be use in favor of an alternitive. Further, there are few cases where your product is required to accompish anything (Quests, missions, crafting process, Entertainer events etc.) If the Modular Upgrade is found to be usable by this community make it dynamic to your craft. Make it more than just "How you build a droid." Make droids Vital to the game.
(Example: You go to farm the Chunker Bunker on Talus to find Loot Kit items. You are a Master Combat Profession and clear the outside guard within seconds. You smile at the ease and approach the Door of the Bunker. It doesnt open. Its locked so you Slice it, your a slicer too. You get a error responce that this is an advance computer lock and it requires a Droid Interface to open. Crapyou need a Droid.)
Also, think in terms of Supply and not just Repair. If a Fire Exteguisher Mod is created to put out Fire DOTs, make it where it must be recharged. Only DEs make the Recharge Kit.
Do you Have Quests or Mission Terminals? The Revamp you got didnt provide much really other than new Modules. You deserve more as Droids are a very important part of the Star Wars Experiance. Is this too much to ask for? Possably, but this is prime time as the Obligation is done, for now,that SOE has to Lucas Arts. Change is sometimes difficult but in the long run can be rewarding. If you feel this is too much for the Droid Engineer to handle, think what the Combat Upgrade is going to do to all those pesky Trigger Pumpers and Pugilists.
I only make these suggestions to help make a better Star Wars experiance in SWG. I love this game and though naive I hope others can find a love for it too.
Message Edited by JYCowboy on 11-10-2004 10:54 AM
Gron_DM
Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:33 pm
#41
not to sidetrack things to bad but the DE changes in jtl are very much cosmetic improvments not really sale improvements. i have increased sales for droids with jtl for3 reasons: Shipwrights need there new droids with ship crafting module 2: Unprogrammed chips and FC's 3:AstroDroids...Problems with #1: No decay those shipwrights that buy those droids never need another...Problem with #2: These parts are a joke to create and stock in bulk, and also lacking experimentation anyone can grind the DE xp to get to crafting them and sell them. Problems with #3: Customer awareness is troublesome here, as is the fact that once i explain about there usability ppl realize its a hassle to have 5 droids one with each a different data module level, not to mention the fact once they master pilot there laster pilot craft doesnt use an astromech only a FC....that sucks.
Sorry didnt meant to vear so hard on this but some ppl mentioned how we got love on this patch and i agree we got attn but from the point of view of the economist we didnt.
BillyBobthe50th
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:04 pm
#42
Is drask trying to stop us from doing Modular Upgrades as what we want because the devs will say no? because I doubt Drask would have a problem with what we want unless the devs are on his back saying "tell them to stop it! we arent gonna be doing that for them! We have much more work to do before we announce our failure to accomplish anything!"
EDIT: TK421 didnt really seem to like how I think very much 
He pmed me several times a while ago telling me that DE is in a good state and that I shouldnt be saying it could be better.
He pmed me several times a while ago telling me that DE is in a good state and that I shouldnt be saying it could be better.Message Edited by BillyBobthe50th on 11-10-2004 06:05 PM
ngp
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:06 pm
#43
How about making module swappng available to only DEs? Like how only smugglers can slice? That way,DEs can charge a service fee, making up for lost sales.
Gron_DM
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:10 pm
#44
i agree that the bugs we have now need to be fixed first, but i disagree on the decay and modularity not going hand in hand. Introducing decay will not be a popular thing, modularity will be...if you dont think it will be then consider the average droid user. They buy a droid for the first time odds are they are getting something they wont use all of its modules or they will get a droid missing modules they may need. Modularity allows someone to really customize they're droids and given the staggering amount of possible module combinations i see nothing but good from modularity. Of course modularity also needs better documentation on the examine for said modules but that is also a issue that needs to be addressed before modularity is added. Im not saying that we shouldnt encourage adding need, far from it need is what DE lacks overall. But i am saying that second to need this change would make ppl enjoy playing with their droids allot more. In addition to making life easier for the DE.
Jenden wrote:
BillyBobthe50th wrote:
Is drask trying to stop us from doing Modular Upgrades as what we want because the devs will say no? because I doubt Drask would have a problem with what we want unless the devs are on his back saying "tell them to stop it! we arent gonna be doing that for them! We have much more work to do before we announce our failure to accomplish anything!"
EDIT: TK421 didnt really seem to like how I think very much
Message Edited by BillyBobthe50th on 11-10-2004 06:05 PM
Ok, take Drashk out of the equation, you still have a number of other people that see the large problems... If Drashk were the only one against the plan then your point might make some form of sense, but he isn't. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone's entitled to their opinion, I just don't see how a modular system would really benefit the profession in any way. It doesn't provide decay (not without adding in decay, which would serve the same purpose without the modular system), it doesn't provide more of a need for droids, it doesn't make for a simpler system for the customers to understand, about the only thing it adds to the profession is more complexity.
On a side note, if you have a problem with Drashk come out and say it, we've had too much of the whole indirect accusation thing on this board already with the past couple correspondents.
Message Edited by Jenden on 11-10-2004 07:01 PM
Straker_Atrella
Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:39 pm
#45
Billybob,
I think you are being way to hard on Drashk. He actually has in the past suggested systems that would implement a system such as this. Well thought out systems , that took a lot of time to make. Views shift and change, his are able to change as well. I would honestly rather have a correspondant who expresses his views, then one sitting on th sideline just lurking. Luckily, we have had only good Corrs sinceI have been here. Now you may thinkI am sucking up to Drashk, yet honestly I am not, the reality is that I have probably bumped heads with Drashk more then aybody else on these boards.
Drashk is voicing negative views on this idea, not because he doesn't want it, but because he doesn't think it is what we need. I happen to agree in this case.
Currently ouside of bugs, a DE's biggest 2 problems are that there is little "need" for droids, plus a low resale rate. Let's look at this all again.
Need
Currently, Food, Armor, Weapons, and Buffs are something that you really need to be more effective in the game. You can even push spices and slicing into the mix. Sure people can get by without those things, yet with them they are far more superior then without them. We have a couple of Droids that fit into that area, mainly Medical Droids, and Harvestor droids. You can live without them, yet they enhance you abilities, so you are better with them or without them. Combat droids can be ok, but once past a certain point, there is little need for them. We have other very coolmodules, ones that make a persons playing experiance much more enjoyable, yet none of them come anywhere near as close to enhancing yourplaying experiance like that well sliced T21 or Composite Breastplate.
Some people simply can't be bothered with Droids, they are to troublesome to be worthwhile. There are some people who have a couple of Droids, yet have no reason to max out at 5. My entire guild gets free Droids from me, the best Droids possible, most people have a couple, but outside of Medical Droids, they hardly ever use them.
Resale
Now you may call this decay, but it really isn't. It's the factor that except for a few items, once we sell a Droid, the person has it for life. All of the items I listed before as "needs," wear out as well as being needed. So not only are our items not really all that needed, the ones that are bought will stay there. People may be enjoying the JTL sales now, better get it while it's hot. As people master and get their level 6 droids, they wont need anymore. Yet at the same time, JTL has cut down on BH sales drastically.
Modular Design
Ok, I'm going to say agian, that this is a cool idea, and in a perfect worlds Droids would have been made like this to begin with. Yet they weren't. Implementing this system would require a TOTAL rework of how droids are not only built, yet also how they are kept track of. Right now if say a Harvestor Droid has a 108 rating, the game doesn't care if that came from 6 rated 18 modules or 5 rated 20's and one rated 8. All it cares about is the droids final rating. Making it modular would not only reqire a total revamp of Droid crafting, but also how the entire database looks at Droids future as well as current.
To what point? A "cool" factor making DE more the "way it should have been," mostly. It would give us little else.
Now some have also suggested that along with adding a modular design, they added modular decay as well. While this would increase resales of modules it would also drastically affect the "need versus trouble," equation. Sure we would get some people coming back to get their Droid modules replaced, yet at the same time, a lot of people just wouldn't bother. Their Droids simply don't do enough to warrent more trouble.
How is Modular Decay different from overall Droid Decay? Vastly. Ok let's use Harvestor Droids for an example. With modular Design, one module may wear out at 2 months, another 2 days later, then 2 weeks, then 1 day, then a month. The customer needs to mess with his Droid 6 times. More trouble then it is worth. With overall Droid decay, the customer goes to a vendor and buy another one when it wears out, then uses it for the next 4 months.
If decay is ever added, it needs to be done in such a way that customers will accept it. If you make it to much trouble, they will simply stop using Droids.
In Concusion
While a very cool idea, it wont address the "need" issue. It would suck up huge amounts of Developer time only to end up actually costing us sales in the end. Droids from a customer point of view would jsut be to much trouble to matter.
DigitalOne
Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:33 am
#46
I think what we're seeing here, from drasks breakdown of the modular concept, is that there is no easy fix to droid engineers. I know we have a limited time window of attention to look forward too, and i know that a large amount of time has been expended on improving our profession by the developers who are genuinly interested in validifying our product.
Droids in this game are a square peg in a round hole, they dont fit at all. Honestly. Im sorry to say this by we just dont belong here, we are the toy thrown in as fluff to orniment an otherwise brilliant game. Given the system, the predefined role branded into us, and thesinew and tendons of ballance and efficiancy limit us to what we are. Inefficiant.But we came to this conclusion a while ago.. and it dosent matter because we make good money.
The changes thus far have been primarily additive, expanding our capabiliy without tending to latentissues.This hasbeen fine, its been a great way of expanding the life of our profession, but it was meerly aband aid,we suffer frominternal bleeding if you will that is only now beginning to be adressed.
The modular upgradesystem is the first proposal to involve a do-ablemeans ofrepairing the core damage to ourtrade. But its got problems.When i first read about the modular upgrade system i was enthusiastic that this was it, the idea that sounded goodand fun, but most of all wasconcievably implentable.
I dont like this proposal because this means more customer contact, and customer inconvieniance. If your like me, you hate people. You probably worked out an elaborate system to avoid human contact as much as possible in fear the occasional lunatic that asks "Dude, what do droids do?". I whole heartidly agree that droid crafting should be an "Active Process", but only so long as this active process dosent lead us into contact with to many space morons.
I also think that this upgrade would also force us to take a look at the module system as it is. We would be forced to question the leveled modules such as our medical, storage, data, etc. I like the leveled system, it gives us alot of advantages altough it renders 5 out of 6 modules absolutly useless. We could eliminate this and render leveled modules experementation based, but this would make our job exponentialy tougher. We would not only be forced to search for not only rare resources, but GOOD rare resources, this would also incite competition between DEs, which isnt cool.
I Think we should adress the leveled module system as such. Data has already been expanded to serve as astromech modules, Medical modules should require level based Certifications implanted into the the medic tree, symilar to pilot, so a novice medic could use only level 1 medic droids, but a master medic/doctor vis a vis can use level 6 ones. Item storage should should not have a level, but have a standard of 10 slots (or more) or have a max of 3 levels( 1 slot, 5 slots, 10 slots). Mantenance should not have a level period, its far to useless to be dignified with 3 modules.
Not to mention completly doing away with addative effect modules.
Anyway, so we got weevils in the flour. You can eat them or you can dump the flour. But that leaves us hungry. So we're up poop creek. Yea.
The problems we suffer are systemic, there is no effective treatment that wouldnt result in total castration, or total exaustion of "Attention capitol". But nomatter how we look at it, a complete rebuilding of of the profession is in order. Hard words to utter, but what else we got?
We have had a year and half to come out with the unified field fix for droids, (along which great ideas were founded) but we're still hung up on a contraverial semi-fix.
To sum things up, droids dont fit in this game. And they're not going to rebuild the game just for little old us.
Scratch the modular upgrade system, but save some of the magic behind it.
I think the problem lies in the moduler utility sytem in droids. I belive the modular upgrade system would render droid construction proccess into two isolated parts, the creation of the Chassis, and that of the module. We have to remember that the ultimate goal of this debate is to formularize an effective from of droid decay, this dosent achive this ends, We are eliminated from the crafting process at this point, and become spare parts dealers.
I think we have two choices here
We can leave the modular system in tact in favor of an extra-modular system of decay.
Or Abandon the modular system completly and pursue concepts which replace modules as we know them and achive their effects through alternative methods, programing, or upgrade etc.
The key is that we do not shoot outself in the foot here, the ultimate goal here is to make more money.
#1 We dont touch modules, what goes in a droid stays in a droid much like now. We dont touch thier subcomponents either. What i suggest is a method of programing, in which we have the ability to construct program algorithim chips which augment the droids inherent function, or provide additonal temporary functions to a droid. That is for example we can constuct a program chip which will boost say, creature harvest rating in an R3 to the degree of it having a 7th socket for an hour or so depending on quality, or allow this creature harvest R3 to perfrom as a medical center for the time being. This isnt a system of decay in the droid itself, rather an additional system of decay on top of the droid. This wouldnt work for all modules IE storage &mantenance.This wouldgrant us a renewable market involving droids. These chips might even be sliceable to make them even better and boomsmugglers get better.
Previously i mentioned "Active Process", this refers to how we build droids. I builddroids in a factory, they basicaly put themselves togeather i add resources, then i sell them on a vendor, this is quite passive, and i dont involve myself to much. These chipscould be created in afactory or may require work that a factory cannot achive, such as unprogramed command modules where we have to manualy burn them toahive thier function. Maybe play agame on them like the calibrating the sensor arrayin Aurilia.
#2 Is to rid our selves of all modules and start from scratch, i had some ideas before i started talking but since i debunked most of them. But i think the best bet is throw away everything and start over, clean slate.
What works for shipwright wont work for us, because they have a very cool system dosent mean this will work well for us.
Also, ive said it before and i must keep stressing this. Our products need to be more than supplemental. We cannot survive transition if our products bear only marginal utlitiy value. Droids should be able to perform some function instrumental in the activities of all classes in one form or another. Droids must cease to be toys, and become somthing more than an expensive curiosity. Tell them Devs to get off thier butts and stop playing with thier AIBO, its giving them bad ideas.
its late
psikobunny
Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:58 am
#47
BillyBobthe50th wrote:
EDIT: TK421 didnt really seem to like how I think very much
The problem with how you think isn't your ideas, its the fact that you're picking on individuals andcreating nonexistent conspiracies instead of actually addressing the topic. Picking on the people, instead of addressing the ideas they propose doesn't further the discussion. If you're gonna single someone out for opposing the modular system, you might as well pick a name at random, because its a fairly good sized list. Why not counter the things said by me, or Straker, or Jenden? We have all come down against the idea, simply because we've taken the time to look at it and realize it won't really solve anything. If you're in favor of the Modular system that much, then tell us how you think it will solve the problems we face as DE, instead of trying to pick a fight with someone who doesn't deserve it.
Jeryld
Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:46 am
#48
I think this system would be interesting if coupled with a decay system - i.e. introducing module decay, so instead of having the droid as a whole decay, have the individual modules suffer decay of some sort - so you could have the motive system pack up and the droid wouldn't be able to move until it was replaced, etc etc - droids should go on and on, but their components should pack up from time to time.
Cheers
Gron_DM
Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:24 pm
#49
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Modular Design
Ok, I'm going to say agian, that this is a cool idea, and in a perfect worlds Droids would have been made like this to begin with. Yet they weren't. Implementing this system would require a TOTAL rework of how droids are not only built, yet also how they are kept track of. Right now if say a Harvestor Droid has a 108 rating, the game doesn't care if that came from 6 rated 18 modules or 5 rated 20's and one rated 8. All it cares about is the droids final rating. Making it modular would not only reqire a total revamp of Droid crafting, but also how the entire database looks at Droids future as well as current.
To what point? A "cool" factor making DE more the "way it should have been," mostly. It would give us little else.
Now some have also suggested that along with adding a modular design, they added modular decay as well. While this would increase resales of modules it would also drastically affect the "need versus trouble," equation. Sure we would get some people coming back to get their Droid modules replaced, yet at the same time, a lot of people just wouldn't bother. Their Droids simply don't do enough to warrent more trouble.
How is Modular Decay different from overall Droid Decay? Vastly. Ok let's use Harvestor Droids for an example. With modular Design, one module may wear out at 2 months, another 2 days later, then 2 weeks, then 1 day, then a month. The customer needs to mess with his Droid 6 times. More trouble then it is worth. With overall Droid decay, the customer goes to a vendor and buy another one when it wears out, then uses it for the next 4 months.
If decay is ever added, it needs to be done in such a way that customers will accept it. If you make it to much trouble, they will simply stop using Droids.
In Concusion
While a very cool idea, it wont address the "need" issue. It would suck up huge amounts of Developer time only to end up actually costing us sales in the end. Droids from a customer point of view would jsut be to much trouble to matter.
I disagree about modularit only being something that is just "cool"also you write about decaying modules as though they would be trouble...any decay will be trouble. What will ppl like more, a droid that decays as a whole requiring its complete replacement or a few modules decaying that they can go buy and get replaced? When decay is introduced it wont be popular, as it is a hassle to get a droid for ppl. Especially when someone has found just the right combinations they like....
Modularity makes decay a great deal more acceptable, it also gives a flexability to droid users that will make droids a great deal more usable. People will take more time to learn the modules as they will actually have the ability to change them as they need....I still say need takes precident, once we have more modules that are necessary to swg's economy then decay and modularity should be the next step. As for dev time and overhauling the old droids, my suggestion is dont, let the old droids use a different code system. Make the newer droids on a different code base that way there isnt a huge effort involved.
There is obviosly going to be some issues with how much module decay is enough and what is to much but that is simple code changes in comparision to the much harder problem of how much droid decay overall is enough if there is no modularity- that issue will be a tough pill for many droid users to swallow.
in conclusion people like customizability, they love the ships changable parts its part of the fun of using them. They also would ike playing around and tinkering with there droids. The only trouble here is getting the devs to get us need 1st and the fact that decay will never be popular to the general public as necessary as it is.
Gron_DM
Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:50 pm
#50
reading over some other post....with this caveat in mind "Need is first"
There is so many cool ways to do modularity:
1:Anyone can change droid modules but DE's do it with less decay on the chassis
2:" " make the droids better but a small % (like 1 to 10%)
3:Make a 10% failure to insert a module and a 10% for a excellent insert, this way non-DE's can get less/more damaging results when they plug in there new modules.
4:Modules would decay based on there usage, so every time a person crafts there crafting mod would take a small condition hit.
5: Tiering the condition of the modules to a performance rating, but reasonably, ie after a crafter hit 75% on there craft mod? or 50%? this would be inherently related to #4. -boils down to how much time until a relacement module is needed.
6:Re-deeding: this would become a viable thing given that there would be decay.
7:Loot!!!! with modularity loot now becomes fun!As a WS i can say that loot is a royal pain! but with module loot wow ppl can either plug it and and use it or come to a de to get it installed and the loot does cool things!
8:Reverse engineering the phat loot, giving the DE's that want to do it a neat side project for making better modules.
9:Im just a new schmoo DE, no big deal with modularity you can price accordingly and still get some basic sales as ppl can take the droid they bought from said newb DE and upgrade it as needed and as newb DE works towards master DE
10:Coding can be a snap for this, just copy SW 
Negatives:
1:There will be decay
2
eople will have to replace the modules, means they gotta go buy new ones.
eople will have to replace the modules, means they gotta go buy new ones.3:Some DE's mods maybe better then others, so yikes some competition may occur
4:If SoE does there usual education level on droids with modularity expect to be doing allot of customer education.
5: DE's will be sought after to put in new mods.----->However some DE's like talking to there customers, so there is a perk there that is also a good thing.
But consider vs the negatives of a pure and total droid decay system:
There will be decay
People will have to buy a completely new droid every month(3 weeks/2weeks/2 months??)
Droid combos that are unusual will be harder to get replaced.
People will be happier to replace sparky the droids medical module then having to replace sparky.
Also....
Considering how much decay a pet bantha takes in combat usagei highly suggest the route of module. This is the only other problem i see in doing modularity balancing it out with organic pets.
psikobunny
Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:15 pm
#51
My thoughts on the possibility of Reverse Engineering and looted DE parts:
On the whole I think it would be a bad idea to implement this. There is already enough Inventory load with shipwright parts, and the desire for people to carry this stuff around just isn't there, since droids on the whole just aren't that important to people currently. It's one aspect that I really wouldn't want to see copied over from Shipwright, unless it was done differently.
HOWEVER, there would be one neat way to implement Reverse Engineering for DE in a new Decay driven world. If someone brings us a droid that has decayed, maybe our RE tool could be used to salvage parts, with some potential for improvement (the decayed droid might be "refurbished" into a new chassis, that has some base stats built in- a scouting droid that keeps 10% of its rating and can be fitted with 6 new modules). Or, if the potential for looted DE items was limited to a DE using an RE device on the remains of a destroyed NPC droid, then it would be interesting. Possibly we could sell Parts Containers, so that more combat oriented players could go out and fill them, then bring them to us for analysis (they would work similarly to Junk Kits- 1 inventory slot, that woul "load" with the carcasses of slain droids).
Rehash Time:
I don't think the original proposal encompassed mimicing the Shipwright system completely. I don't think copying the Shipwright RE system is a good idea in particular, just like I don't want DE to become a shipwright copycat now. We have a system, it has flaws, but they can be fixed and improved. Modularity would have been nice, if we'd gotten it initially, but now we'd just be weak stepchildren to shipwrights, since droids still aren't needed. Modular ships unlock the entire realm of Space for players. What would a modular droid open up to its owner? There are fixes, additions, and redesigns I want to see much more than this.
Jenden
Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:29 pm
#52
Granted I can't speak for everyone, but I know the majority of my customers prefer what we have now for its relative simplicity. They don't have to know anything about modules, they don't have to know what modules do what, they don't really even have to know what ones stack. They just need to know what they want in a droid and I make it for them, or explain to them what part of it can't be done/would be better done in another way. If they have to micro manage their droid and come back to get this module replaced then that one replaced, another one a couple days later.... its going to get old very quickly. Most of them would much rather just get a whole new droid. Now, I know that some people get attached to their droid (I've got my own 820 HAM probot I can't stand to get rid of) so you add in a system for "refurbishing" the droid (at the resource cost of an entirely new droid anyway).
Don't get me wrong, I like the complexity of our profession, but as it is most of that complexity is shouldered by the DE's. A module system would just be shifting a lot of that complexity over to the users, who don't want it and most likely would stop using droids because of it.