CUEmu - Thread Posts

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:31 pm

Ok, I went and ran some tests on the live server, here are the results. (Probot stats used for this test: 820 HAM, medium armor, 40% to everything. 28% accuracy and 70-80 damage every 2.47 seconds. DPS is therefore 32. Effective kinetic damage HAM is 5466)

The first test was a probot vs a rabid shaupant (CL9) as you can expect the shaupant totally had it's butt handed to it. Simulation results would have been as follows:

Actual HAM is 900, effective HAM vs energyis also 900. DPS for this animal is 45.

Rabid shaupant takes 121 seconds to kill probot.

Probot takes 28 seconds.

Probot will take a maximum of 1260 points of damage within the fight, naturally it's spread across several pools by the raio of 3:2:1. Mind therefore should suffer around 113 points of damage to the health bar. And the result was.... 91 points of health damage (729/819, 1pt wound)

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=46555

This means that the droid is certainly not CL10 for starters, however since it's only fair to let DEs compete with bio-engineers who make pets better than wild CL equivilents it's only fair to give them the same CL13-15 stats at a CL10 rating. So it's to be expected that a CL9 was totally devestated. A fight with a CL14 should be very very close though since they SHOULD be more or less evenly matched.

Round 2...

Probot vs a Peko Peko (CL14)

Actual health was 2329. No energy resistance so it's still 2329. Max DPS for this was 80.

Peko Peko takes 68 seconds to kill probot.

Probot takes 72 seconds to kill Peko Peko.

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=46556

As you can see thisshould have been a very close fight, going either way because of only a 4 seconddifference.However the fact is that the probot won this by a fairly comfortable margin. Final result... 193/817, 3pts of wound. Repeated tests wouldn't have mattered since another Peko Peko would need to cause another 607points of damage to that single pool, this Peko Peko already had slightly above average HAM but repeated tests would have given the same result in my opinon.

I did test the probot against a CL22 Shaupant Hunter. As expected it got it's metalbutt kicked.

Round 3... the Title Fight...

Probot vs (Samish) A Male Swamp Tusk Cat (CL17)

Actual health is 3900, effective vs energy is 3105. Max DPS is 90.

(Samish) takes 60 seconds to kill Probot.

Probot takes 97 seconds to kill (Samish)

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=46558

Here can see thatthe probotwould wear away 2/3 of the tuskcats HAM from the simulation, that is actually what happened. Samish was cut down to around 1000 points of his health at which point he actually ran away. The probot was left with a splinter of health at 26 (effectively 81 points which wouldn't have been enough to win) but the result did surprize me as he did far more damage to the pet than expected.

So in the evidence here shows two things. The simulations were actually fairly accurate using just the crude basis of dps and effective HAM. Naturally it doesn't take counteract, evading and accuracy into account however those are minor figures since both mobs have more or less equal stats in that respect. From what I can tell a droid cannot counteract however they do have high evasion skills to counter that shortcoming. The second thing is shows is that the current combat droids are nicely balanced, somewhere between CL14 and CL17 meaning they are actually better than clones by a slight margin.

But my concern isn't with the current ones so much as it is the new ones with the additional HAM and a higher DPS. The simulations show they'd manage to survive a fight with a CL20 mob. The simulations with this current probot also match what actually happens with a small margin of error. What makes you think that the simulations for the new probots will be any different than what actually happens?

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
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Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

Shian_Tavkin

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:32 pm

#54

SkyeDarkangel wrote:

Sorry, forgot to add:

People who don't want to try to control 2 pets at once will choose Probot for it's slightly greater strenght. Also, would you want to keep buying 2 different types of Stims all the time? It's much easier to buy bulk of one and stick with it. Sadly, you can add the abilities of a CL10 pet just by having a Republic Blaster and shooting the stuff yourself.

You do have a point in their coexisting though, but since a CL10 pet doesn't take damage very well it won't be as nice an option and will prove easier for younger or less combat-prone players to use. (Since the pet can't take damage and the Probot shoot from a distance where it's more likely to hit)

So GOOD

Those that want to use the Probot will, and those that want to use it in conjunction with a CL10 'creature' can if they CHOOSE to..it's all good and diverse. Both choices have downsides as well as advantages.

Don't cry for the BE too much, he still has his high end pets, and his products to other professions, plus he still can sell CL10 and under as additional items to players. Too bad his monopoly on CL10 is being removed..maybe he will have to stop and rethink his marketing policy..that is all.

Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-03-2004 01:34 PM

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:37 pm

#55

This isn't so much about sharing the market like I said, it's about the CL ratings. What is apparent here in case you haven't noticed is that the reason someone pointed out that a probot totally kicked the butt of their dewback is because we're not getting a fair trade off between damage and HAM when we play around with the numbers. Bio-engineers works on the basis of migrating the stats while maintaining the CL rating, what we're seeing though is that by migrating the damage to the HAM we're actually making the pet weaker than they should be. This is especially insulting after the devs said that the 9k animals with minimum damagewere overpowered.

Anyway, the evidence is there in front of you. Your new probots are indeed going to be able to go toe-to-toe with a CL20 mob so they aren't even equal to a CL15 mob like other crafted pets for non-chs.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

Malitevv

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:46 pm

#56

duncje wrote:

You're also assuming that both combatants will hit each other every time. If you'veever owned a probot, you'd realize that they're lucky to hit a target once every 2 or 3 shots, at whatever range. They are not very accurate, whereas a melee mob at close range is very likely to hit more often than that.

yeah. assuming that both will hit every single time in an effort to compare the damage potential of the two is completely bogus. any mathematician will tell you this. you have to factor in the probability to hit. failing to do that makes the calculation complete nonsense.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot

Barfalomue

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:55 pm

#57

Who in the bloody hell uses a Peko Peko in combat? ...Or any of those other creatures you mentioned?

The fact is...CL10 pets suck. No one has much use for them. Sure, they offer the 'once in a while' meat wall...but it gets to cost too much and too much hassle to keep them healed.

The fact is...Creature Pets are Creature Pets. Droids are Droids.

The fact is...There is 0(ZERO, ZIP, ZILTCH) balance in this game. Take a Pistoleer with tier 2 skills across the board and put him/her up against a tier 2 across the board TKA...the TKA is going to whoop ass....

What fun would the game be if everything was just as powerful as everything else?

The fact is...My Probot can kill any creature as long as I keep it out of 'hit range' of the creature.

The fact is....(besides some acts of mother nature) What in the wild can seriously take on something man made? A rattlesnake can not bite through my kevlar lined boots. An elephant can not stampede me if I put a .50 cal round in its head. Fish and other wildlife have no chance of survival if 100,000 gallons of oil are dumped in a harbor.

Sure, there are opposites to this. What if the rattlesnake bites me where the kevlar is hinged? What if the elephant gets me before I shoot it? What if the birds take flight before the oil reaches them? Yes...but in a true head to head...the man-made stuff will always come out on top. Heck, as long as I am 8-10 feet underground with a stable ceiling, I can sit in the middle of a tornado passing overhead.

WHO REALLY GIVES A CRAP IF PROBOTS OUTPOWER A CL10 CREATURE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!

Probots are too expensive for novice players (who they would be most useful to), and they are pointless to an experienced player (because my commando doesn't need the protection of a crappy droid. It is more troublesome to deal with than effective by using it for an allie.)

Your hypothesis and theories may or may not be right...but who really cares? The point is CL10 Creatures nor droids really serve a great purpose in this game. There are a greater amount of creatures out there we go up against which CL10 droids would not have a chance.

As far as your idea about a pet mob fighting another pet mob...well I don't see this happening except maybe under controlled conditions. I have never seen someone just sick their pet nor their droid on another person's pet or droid. The player always intervenes and it is THEIR skills, NOT THE PET'S that determines the winner.

Bring your biggest...baddest BE Pet to me against my Commando. I will take you both out, or all 4 of you if you prefer to use your full armorment of pets. Searching and tracking creatures with 16k+ HAM is a regular practice when I am playing with my Commando, and even then it is stillvery simpleto massacre such enemies with very little damage to myself and/or my armor. My reason in stating these facts is not to boost my own self-image, but to show you that a CL10 creature nor droid is going to help me battle these types of enemies. I don't know what BE Creature or pet WOULD have a chance against the enemies I seek out on a regular basis. Perhaps a Kimogila would be the closest to attempting this challenge, but when you are facing 2 Ancient Bull Rancors at once, I doubt your Kimogila would have a chance. Or if you are facing off a nightsister group, I doubt it would last more than 45 seconds.

So, in conclusion...Drop this subject and ST-FU about it already. We get your point, we get your idea, we get your argument, but it really has no great effect on this game.

Message Edited by Barfalomue on 03-03-2004 01:59 PM

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Malitevv

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:00 pm

#58

Tal-N wrote:

Except that being the wise mathamatician you'd realise that you don't need to take accuracy into consideration when both mobs hit for around 30% accuracy. If you wanted to find the differential between the two it would be zero, meaning you can discard that since they do actually hit just as often as each other. Almost as if both never missed or always missed.

can you assume that? how are you calculating the probabilty to hit?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot

Malitevv

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:03 pm

#59

gee Barf. you just love to jump into conversations and make a passionate argument that completely sidesteps the point of the discussion don't you? This discussion is not aboutwhether or not CL10 pets are useless. This discussion is about how the probot compares to a CL10 pet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:05 pm

#60

OK, let me put this another way. Probot manages to hit 2/3 times, mob hits 2/3 times. That is because both are 30% accuracy. If they both miss and hit just as equally as one another you can get identical results by saying they hit each every single time in proportion to one another. Look I posted the results right here on the forum to prove it, that is what is happening at the moment. Increasing the DPS and HAM for the Probot will inherantly be raising their CL rating higher than what it currently is.. and currently it's around CL15 which is as expected.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

duncje

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:19 pm

#61

You've lost me. First you say they are overpowered. Then you actually test one and say they're not overpowered, they're just about where they should be, but they will be overpowered later....

MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

A good mathematician will also tell you that when randomness and probability come in, a single test is not sufficient to determine an outcome.

You would need to run your test a number of times, probably 10 or so of each, to be safe and to determine probable outcomes of Probot v. (Level X Mob). While your outcomes are probably close to what would happen on a case by case basis, one runvs. one type of animal is not enough to guesstimate the actual CL of a Probot.

Beebo
Master Droid Engineer | Shipwright | Master Artisan
Crazy Beebo's Discount Droids & Ships {-1075 -2924} Bestine, Tatooine

Malitevv

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:29 pm

#62

Tal-N wrote:

OK, let me put this another way. Probot manages to hit 2/3 times, mob hits 2/3 times. That is because both are 30% accuracy. If they both miss and hit just as equally as one another you can get identical results by saying they hit each every single time in proportion to one another. Look I posted the results right here on the forum to prove it, that is what is happening at the moment. Increasing the DPS and HAM for the Probot will inherantly be raising their CL rating higher than what it currently is.. and currently it's around CL15 which is as expected.

no need to explain that. that is obvious. but you are assuming that they both hit 2/3 times. Where does that data come from?

Every mob is different. Some have very high energy resistance (and against them the probot is useless) for example. Some of them don't. There's no wasy to say "it hits 2/3 of the time" in general. There's too much variation in the types of targets for that to be a meaningful statement. There is also the fact that when my probot is fighting some other guy'screature pet, neither one of them is "the mob" that you speak of. So in that case, why do I care how each of them performs when up against some other mob when calculating how quickly they would kill each other? What matters is what their probability of hiting each other is. The theoretical mob is irrelevant.

One other point. Not to nitpick, but if something hits with 2/3 of its attacks, then its accuracy is 66% not 30%.

And finally,

---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

T.S. Eliot

Alacrity

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:33 pm

#63

Tal-N: You've made a good start with that testing. Now, strip off the conclusions and repeat the test twenty or thirty times. Show a master list of the results. THEN you can start forming conclusions. There's too much randomness in the combat system for a single fight to reveal anything useful.

Amoon Darkflier, Elder Artisan, Elder Droid Engineer, Elder Merchant

"I find your lack of pants disturbing."

Virtanis

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:00 pm

#64

Out of curiosity.... what is the type of attack ofa Probot's "laser bolt"? Is it Energy? Heat?

???

I might remind all here who are testing that, whatever the type of damage a Probot does, the CL10 pet should have it's resist high in that category.

Most CL10 creature pets I know of have kinetic resists only.

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Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:28 pm

#65

no need to explain that. that is obvious. but you are assuming that they both hit 2/3 times. Where does that data come from?

For starters I'm a Ranger and can see their 'To Hit' chance which is accuracy. The majority of mobs in the CL15-25 ranges are all around 30-35%. I use SWGcreatures.com's own database for the DPS calculations. You can also check the To Hit on the datapad for the pets.

Out of curiosity.... what is the type of attack ofa Probot's "laser bolt"? Is it Energy? Heat? I might remind all here who are testing that, whatever the type of damage a Probot does, the CL10 pet should have it's resist high in that category.

Most CL10 creature pets I know of have kinetic resists only.

The Probot does energy damage like all pets and factional support who use blasters. The majority of CL10 pets do NOT have kinetic protection, they pretty much have none now. Again use www.swgcreatures.com to check the stats and resistances for the animals listed here. I did include what their energy resistance was in the post. Energy and Kinetic protection isn't that common at a lower level simply because those are very common damage types and drastically increase the CL rating of the animals compared to lesser types such as acid or cold damage. Even if I am mistaken and it causes heat damage it wouldn't matter as the majority of the animals under CL20 have very few resistances anyway.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
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Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

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