Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Who Wants To Play A Droid Engineer Who Can't Use All His/Her Droids?
I have things to say when I think that they will have an impact.
I see nothing from Drashk or the red-names indicating that any of our discussions will have any affect on our future.
It's pointless to try and discuss issues that are already set-in-stone.
Of course, we don't know if any of this is set in stone, since the Devs won't tell us (and Drashk can't tell us, even if he knows).
Thus, all this talking is pointless.
/bow
Respectfully,
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
I'm NOT talking here about BH droids. Nor am I speaking of medical droids. I think any droid that requires specialized skills such as medic or BH skills (or, hopefully, in the future slicing and other skills) should only be useable by those DEs that have the correct skills. However, the natural implication in my mind of the pure crafter camp's desires is that some non-skill based droids -- combat droids -- would be off limits to the very people who create and know those droids best: droid engineers.
ROFLMAO.
I haven't read the 50-odd responses yet, but I don't need to. The way you have presented this question makes it so biased in favor of the answer you want that I will be astounded if even 20% have responded yes (that they want to play a DE who can't use all of his/her droids).
Why are medical skills specialized in your eyes but combat skills are not? We have no training in either, so why should be be able to use droids that provide either?
Your personal bias is showing. 
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I think the real issue is...
How do we have powerful, desired, worthwhile combat droids (or combat modules) without the need for skill commitment?
That's a simple one and I am glad you suggested the issue: DEs have been underpowered from the start, a broken class in need of fixing. Better droids are a solution to that problem, not an unwarranted upgrade.
Think of most other professions. They all have really good perks at the Master lvl; CH in particular comes to mind as they are, like it or not, another pet class as we are. What do we have? Module-less BLLs and an extra experimentation bonus for a crafting system that doesn't have proper experimentation. Soemthing is missing here: namely the kick butt droids most of us dream ok making and commanding.
Add to that, the fact that the devs have already stated their recognition that we have too many dependencies on other professions and you see that the skill points we have to invest in Master Artisan (or the recourses/time we have to expend to get Master Artisan components) more than make up for the benefit of having good droids.
The ability to control great droids, I submit, is what DEs are should be all about. The inability of DEs to control non-skill based droids would be the very height of irony. If you disagree, I respectful ask that your refute this proposition.
In response to TheRealTK421:
That makes it sound like powerful combat droids are a need, and I don't agree with that. The real issue is how do we fix the Droid Engineer profession and make it as viable as Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, or any other crafting profession?
The answer to that is to fix the issues on Gorantoth's list and then expand the functionality and utility of droids. Combat is one possible aspect that could be expanded, but it is only one of many. It also happens to be the one least in keeping with the current profession.
In response to Sodan-droiddreamer:
I beg to differ. Better droids, by which I presume you mean combat droids, are definitely *a* solution to that problem, but they may be unwarranted. Haven't you seen all of the excellent suggestions for additional droids and modules that have nothing to do with combat? Let's not make radical alterations to the profession first, shall we?
We are not a pet class. We make pets, sure, but ANYONE CAN USE THEM. Therefore we are no more a pet class than Chef.
Most other professions do NOT have a nice 'perk' at Master Level. What perk are you referring to at Master CH? Another 10 points of creature handling? Please. That's not a perk, that's a natural progression. Granted, our 'perk' at Master level is broken, but it exists at a comparable level to other Master level perks and simply needs to be fixed.
Combat is a skill - a skill that we do not possesss. Any argument that you make disallowing the use of Medical Droids applies equally to Combat Droids. You can't have it both ways. If you think it is okay for us to not be able to use Medical Droids, then it is also okay for us to not be able to use Combat Droids.
Drashk wrote:
Something that many people forget to point out is that not all Combat Professions are strictly combat professions.Ranger, Scout, Combat Medic, and Smugglerall have crafting abilities, yet none of them have Artisan prerequisties. Medic, Doctor, and Musican branch out into crafting as well, yet none of them have Artisan as a prereq either.
I'm well aware of that. However, take a look at the abilities that those classes have and you'll see that they are all specific to the profession. In other words, they have been given crafting ability in order for them to further the primary focus of the profession. Furthermore, their crafting abilities come from their base classes, just like our crafting ability comes from our base class - Artisan.
Medics, Combat Medics, and Doctors all craft medicines which they then in turn use to heal people. No one else needs to be able to craft medicines because they cannot then, in turn, use them.
Rangers and Scouts craft camps and traps which are again products that they specifically use in their skill trees. Other people can also find camps useful, but no one but a Ranger or Scout is allowed to use them because camp use is a skill specific to Rangers and Scouts. You want a camp for your group, bring a long a Ranger or Scout.
Smugglers, to me, have the weakest justification for their crafting abilities. Smugglers smuggle things and fight dirty... I can see similarities between spice and medicines, but to me they're hard to justify. Worse, how does spice crafting derive from the Smuggler's base class? Still, it's a point I'm willing to concede to Smugglers since it is confined to one specific line of craftable items. Much like Chefs craft food, Smugglers craft spice. Strange, but workable.
None of this, however, explains why Droid Engineers should be given special combat abilities. Droids are semi-autonomous beings. It doesn't require any special ability to use them. Furthermore, Droid Engineers have no combat skills whatsoever derived from their base class (or from their elite class). You could make the argument that Droid Engineers are similar to Smugglers in that they should "pick up" their combat abilities at the Elite level, but "combat" is much more general andharder to quantifythan "craft spices". And no, "combat using a droid" is not a sufficient amount of specificity.
You see, combat really only has one purpose. And while the way you go about combat may (or may not) slightly alter the way you play, the end result across the broad spectrum is the same - you perform combat to kill things. There's nothing that really differentiates different ways of killing like there are different things (with different purposes) that you can craft.
If you could come up with some specific form of combat that droids do better, then I might agree that Droid Engineers should be better at using those kinds of combat droids. I'll take a stab at it... note that this is NOT a suggestion, I'm just trying to demonstrate the kind of specificity I'm looking for.
Maybe Droids are really good at killing non-humanoid NPCs. (I.e. Animals.) So maybe Droid Engineers should be better at using "Animal Slayer" Droids than anyone else. Anyone can use an Animal Slayer (just like anyone can "fight" and therefore participate in combat using the very basic weapons), but Droid Engineers are better at controlling them.
Ooh... that just gave me another idea... perhaps the "combat advantage" that Droid Engineers have when using combat droids is that there are programmable commands in these droids that only Droid Engineers can use. Perhaps only Droid Engineers can program the "switch targets" command. Maybe only Droid Engineers can program the "guard" command.
Hmm... that needs more thought. It still allows anyone to use the droid, but gives Droid Engineers some slight advantage while using them that isn't strictly combat related. In fact, it's an advantage that makes perfect sense and if the commands are selected carefully, won't make us any better at combat itself than anyone else.
Ellewen wrote:
I no not believe any profession is as narrow a road as some people might think and I disagree that DEs should be as narrow a profession as a few people here want it to be.
/agree
And even if it is currently that narrow it doesn't mean is must be. We're do for a substantial revision and I suspect DEs will be a very much more dynamic part of SWG.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
And even if it is currently that narrow it doesn't mean is must be. We're do for a substantial revision and I suspect DEs will be a very much more dynamic part of SWG.
Droid Engineer is already one of the most flexible crafting professions in the game, if not the most flexible. Just because it doesn't include combat abilities does not make it narrow. Just because our product is currently borked does not mean that our profession is borked. Fix the known problem first - the product - before you go about fixing something that you cannot even be sure is broken.
The overall concept of the profession as it currently stands is great. Why speak the names of the nerf gods out loud and risk their wrath by expanding the profession into something that it doesn't need to be?
Kollos wrote:
The overall concept of the profession as it currently stands is great. Why speak the names of the nerf gods out loud and risk their wrath by expanding the profession into something that it doesn't need to be?
You know, I never quite understood the argument that the game should not be improved or changed one way or the other because it might eventually be nerfed.
Can't quite find a good analogy. Is that like saying "don't drive 'cause you might crash?" or more like saying "don't use your birthday gift 'cause mom might want to return it?". I can't find a good analogy. Maybe its 'cause it's a little too on the the-sky-might-fall-if-there-was-a-sky side of things. Oh well.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
You know, I never quite understood the argument that the game should not be improved or changed one way or the other because it might eventually be nerfed.
Yeah, I've never really understood the "all change is good" mentality, either.
Did I say that the profession shouldn't be improved? No, I did not. I just don't consider the change you're pushing for to be an improvement. More to the point, I consider it to be a huge step backwards for the profession.
I suspect that there are a lot of DEs that won't be thinking new and cool combat droids that they can use and sell are a step backwards.
Kollos wrote:
Did I say that the profession shouldn't be improved? No, I did not. I just don't consider the change you're pushing for to be an improvement. More to the point, I consider it to be a huge step backwards for the profession.
There are many DEs who want droids to sell. They don't care if they are combat or utility as long as the DE can do what they enjoy and make enough credits to keep doing it. I understand that the Devs have said there will be an emphasis on combat droids, but there also needs to be work done on non-combat droids. Especially if you look at the time period this game is set in. How many combat droids did you see in episodes 4-6? Droids were everywhere. But, they were utility droids. The IG-88 Assassin droid is the only combat droid and it was never shown in combat. When you look at the droids in episode 1-2, you see droids totally dependent on the droid control apparatus. When the Droid Control Ship was destroyed in episode 1, the droids completely stopped. They did not have independent or local control systems take over. That fatal flaw may explain why droids fell out of use for combat by the time of episodes 4-6 (the time period of this game).
Combat droids are cool and fun, but they are not the sole reason why this class exists. The crafter camp wants to have a wide variety of extremely useful droids that are bug free that they can sell. The combat camp seems to want to turn DE into DH and have the utility parts sort of a side line while they engage in combat. Both can't happen and maintain balance with the other engineering professions as well as BE and CH. If the crafter camp gets more love, the combat camp can still pick up an elite brawler or marksmen profession to satisfy their desires for destruction. If the combat camp gets love at the expense of the crafter camp, the crafter camp has no where else to turn to satisfy their desire to create useful and sellable droids.
Yes mum i'll be home for life day...sure i won't forget to get dad a present.
No mum...i'm not going to work for MassiveDroid Inc. I've already told you a friend of mine has set up a small shop and he's letting me sell my droids form there.
I'm starting tomorrow...i've already built lot's of droids.
Ding...dong...
"Welcome to Jahar's Droid shop..how may I help you?"
"I wanna droid"
"what type would you like i've got probot's R2's MSE's"
"summat that kills stuff.."
"errrm we'll I don't really have a droid that does that"
"What!? Have you been outside recently? Here we are able to travel to different solarsystems faster than light but the moment I step outside a teeming metropolis I get attacked by bloody butterflies!"
"Well I can see your problem, but..."
"Oh forget it, I'll get a creature instead, I know I made the wrong career choice...should have listened to my parent s when they said 'image designer' is not a suitable job for a young wookie like myself"
Ding..Dong..
"welcome to Jah..."
"Gimme the biggest and baddest droid you got...and make it quick"
"well I got a probot, it's...."
"cool...I'll take one what's it's HAM 15K, 20K?"
"errmm...820"
"!"
"...I ....errm can put some armour on it for you"
"phew, cool...that 820 HAM scared me a little so this armour 80%, 90% resistance?"
"errr..40%"
"!"
"it's a very nice probot i can paint it for you! although that does rub off quite quickly"
"so let me get this straight....the imperials can create big ass walking machines with 55K of HAM, whilst you a master droid engineer steeped in the knowledge of electronics and design can make small floating tin can that goes *pop* for 50dmg every 20 seconds?"
"that's about the crux of it yeh"
"errrmm...I do suppose you've heard of market forces? You know the 'customer is living in a world where everything is trying to kill him so will want to either train himself to kill them first or get something else to protect him"
"yeh, I understand market forces..."
"So you a MDE who's surrounded by people that can create heavy walking machines, high powered guns, and top class armour, can' be bothered to actually bolt those 3 existing things together and stick a brain in it?"
"well I've thjought about it of course, but.."
"Oh forget it, I'll buy a creature"
Ding..Dong
"Welcom.."
"THIS IS A STICK UP GIVE US ALL OF YOUR MONEY!"
"Oh mygod!....please go away or i'll stick my probots you"
"hahaha don't you mean probot...we know your a droid engineer so you don't have any fighting skills, so you can't beat us that way..and you would only stand a chance if you could activate 3 of your probots at once. but you so lame you can only control one of them...so you can just shut up and give me your money"
"I've only got 500 credits"
"*sigh* thought so you droid engineers never make any money because you don't make anything the people want, for flaming hell man...i didn't go to school much but I would atleast build droids that do stuff, and I would make myself a personally tailored control panel so I could control more of them at once...although that might be a bit tricky to use...so I would at least make a panel that a droid engineer can master"
Ding...Dong
"we..."
"This blue Probot droid you sold me is dead"
"It's not dead it's just out of batteries"
"It looks pretty dead to me look i'll feed it a battery like i do every 15 minutes...hello mr probot...*bang* *Bang*...see it's dead"
"errrmm..it's just resting"
"resting!...resting! it isn't resting it's deceased, dead....passed away! And I know you stupid droid engineers can build the things but can you fix 'em eh? eh? no you can't If i were you i'd go back to the enginering school that gave you your qualifications and ask for your money back...become a lumberjack or something...you know do something useful!"
Ding...Dong
"Welcome to Jahar's Droid shop Bankruptcy sale...everything must go"
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
I suspect that there are a lot of DEs that won't be thinking new and cool combat droids that they can use and sell are a step backwards.
Kollos wrote:
Did I say that the profession shouldn't be improved? No, I did not. I just don't consider the change you're pushing for to be an improvement. More to the point, I consider it to be a huge step backwards for the profession.
You just love to twist it around, don't you? If that were what you have been pushing for, then you'd have a point. But since that's not the issue that you've been pushing for that I object to, and since you know that, then all you're doing here is the equivalent of slander.
The change that you have been pushing for that I consider a huge step backwards for the profession is that you want Droid Engineers to be better at using combat droids than otherprofessions,either by having a unique one that only they can use or by being able to use more of them simultaneously than anyone else.
I'm not opposed to new and cool combat droids and never have been. Another point that you're well aware of. What's the matter? Don't have any real arguments to use, so you're resorting to disinformation and slander now?
Kollos wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
I suspect that there are a lot of DEs that won't be thinking new and cool combat droids that they can use and sell are a step backwards.
Kollos wrote:
Did I say that the profession shouldn't be improved? No, I did not. I just don't consider the change you're pushing for to be an improvement. More to the point, I consider it to be a huge step backwards for the profession.
You just love to twist it around, don't you? If that were what you have been pushing for, then you'd have a point. But since that's not the issue that you've been pushing for that I object to, and since you know that, then all you're doing here is the equivalent of slander.
The change that you have been pushing for that I consider a huge step backwards for the profession is that you want Droid Engineers to be better at using combat droids than otherprofessions,either by having a unique one that only they can use or by being able to use more of them simultaneously than anyone else.
I'm not opposed to new and cool combat droids and never have been. Another point that you're well aware of. What's the matter? Don't have any real arguments to use, so you're resorting to disinformation and slander now?
Dood,
I have no idea what you're talking about. You said my ideas were a step backward. I stated that lots of DEs want to be able to use and build new and cool combat droids. How is an affirmative statement of my opinion about combat droids and the DE profession a slander of you?
As a general matter, Kollos -- as I said to Ackis today -- I really don't appreciate your style of debate. You constantly mock and ridicule people and generally operate with a lack of tact.
Scroll back up to your first post in this thread. Note how you start by "Rolling on the floor and laughing your ass off". What's up with that? If you don't like my ideas thenrefute them, but don't mock me or others who you disagree with. You started off your comments on this thread by stating that you ignored all the posts before yours. Then you accuse me of "showing my personal bias". Well, no kidding. I never claimed to be impartial. Later on you say that you are not of the opinion that "all change is good change". Who said that besides you? You're putting words in MY mouth, not the other way around.
It might be helpful for you to remember that their are real, thinking, feeling people on the other side of the screen. I suspect you might comport yourself differently if we were standing in the same room, across the same table, but such is the way it is with thedistance of chat rooms.
I respect your opinions, but not the manner in which you convey them some of the time.